Ask A Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer (No AMoL Spoilers)

[Hagazussa]

What would happen if someone is a circle, not the leader is shielded, would he or she just drop out of the circle and the link continue or would the whole thing collapse. I think that if someone is shielded while linking and the link will hold anyway that is likely to happen if someone is collared by an a'dam while involved in a link as well.

 

Is it possible to be collared and not lose the source, if the sul'dam
collars you willing/allowing you to use the source (or would this ever
happen?)

 

Yes but would there not be a delay, I mean would not someone when they are collared loose contact with the Source and then they can immediately be given leave to channel again, but in that moment when they are out of touch so to speak they will probably drop out of the circle.

[Whizbang]

I think it is not possible to shield a single member of a circle. We haven't seen too much evidence to support this, but when Egwene is battling the Seanchan in TV, while linked and holding the sa'angreal, the shields do not work. I do not know if this is due to the shields targeting the leader or what, but it implies to me that to shield someone linked, even if they are not the leader, would require the strength it takes to shield the entire circle at once.

[Hagazussa]

I would also guess that to shield an individual member of an circle would mean overcoming it's combined strength. But I more got the feeling from that scene with Egwene that she easily swatted the shielding attempts away then that it would not be possible to do so, if I am not mistaken the working was something like it felt for her like hands of children where tying to stem a waterfall, that to me sound more like it being that the circle was just so strong that the Seanchan channelers just had no chance to get a shield in on them than it not being possible because of how the magick system works.

[JACKSONROY]

 

 

 

Hi you Dragonmount Guru's!

nice thread this, so i'll ask away. (My second post, although i've read lots on these forums)

First question that comes to my mind is this: How did the Dark One get Lanfear of the 'Land of the Finns'?

Sure, he is the Lord of the Grave, but we kinda know Moraine isn't dead, so i think it is safe to assume Lanfear/Cyndane wasn't killed by the ter'angreal either. Does he have some power in 'Finnland'?

Anyone can shed some Light here? (I am aware i made some assumptions here: Moraine=alive and Lanfear=Cyndane, but they seem pretty safe)

 

Thanks,

Tom

Tom-

 

I've often wondered this, myself. My own theory on it is that Moiraine (who we all know is an evil genius when it comes to cleverly out-manipulating others) actually used the Finn's game of wishes and such to kill Lanfear. It's also possible that Lanfear tried to channel too much and that/the Finns killed her for it. Remember- no channeling in Finnland.

 

I agree with this and expand,  I think the Finns had held her soul captive, and the DO took it from them, which is what caused a tear since he stole it from someone who already had it but it wasn't destroyed. (Mashadar)  Which is why she is weaker in Cyndane from, although not a lot.

Shaidar Haran (I think that is his name), the Myrdal that stands taller than others and can smile etc., came to collect Lanfear on request of the Dark Lord.  Moraine claims that once she was woken but it was not her it was after, i.e. Shaidar was after Cyndane instead.  I guess Myrdal have no trouble traveling to the Finn mirror world since they are slightly outside of time and between worlds or something, which is why they can travel in shadows too.  He came and collected Lanfear and but she had been under the mercy of the Finn's so she had some of her power sapped which is why Cyndane is slightly weaker.  The Dark Lord tortured her and slowly killed her as her punishment, then reincarnated Lanfear as Cyndane.

 

I want to know what Lanfears three wishes were though? Do we have any idea?

[mb]

My understanding is that it was Moridin that came for Lanfear/Cyndane; and that he killed her.  As far as I recall, the books do not specify where she died; there might be a chance that her death being in the main world.

 

the spelling is myrddraal, not myrdal.

[Hagazussa]

the spelling is myrddraal, not myrdal.

 

Lol Myrdal is a place not that far from here, I go past it on the train every time I go home to visit my mother. :P

 

I want to know what Lanfears three wishes were though? Do we have any idea?

 

I can not remember if it is mentioned anywhere what exactly she wished for, I could be wrong about that though.

[Finnssss22]

My understanding is that it was Moridin that came for Lanfear/Cyndane; and that he killed her.  As far as I recall, the books do not specify where she died; there might be a chance that her death being in the main world.

 

Your understanding is correct, it was Moridin. We have no idea who actually killed her nor where exactly she died.

[BFG]

What would happen if someone is a circle, not the leader is shielded, would he or she just drop out of the circle and the link continue or would the whole thing collapse. I think that if someone is shielded while linking and the link will hold anyway that is likely to happen if someone is collared by an a'dam while involved in a link as well.

 

Is it possible to be collared and not lose the source, if the sul'dam

collars you willing/allowing you to use the source (or would this ever

happen?)

 

Yes but would there not be a delay, I mean would not someone when they are collared loose contact with the Source and then they can immediately be given leave to channel again, but in that moment when they are out of touch so to speak they will probably drop out of the circle.

 

This is what I meant by 'would this ever happen' I agree, there must be a break as the shock of being collared would make you lose your link to the source regardless of what happened after.

 

I think it is not possible to shield a single member of a circle. We haven't seen too much evidence to support this, but when Egwene is battling the Seanchan in TV, while linked and holding the sa'angreal, the shields do not work. I do not know if this is due to the shields targeting the leader or what, but it implies to me that to shield someone linked, even if they are not the leader, would require the strength it takes to shield the entire circle at once.

 

I would also guess that to shield an individual member of an circle would mean overcoming it's combined strength. But I more got the feeling from that scene with Egwene that she easily swatted the shielding attempts away then that it would not be possible to do so, if I am not mistaken the working was something like it felt for her like hands of children where tying to stem a waterfall, that to me sound more like it being that the circle was just so strong that the Seanchan channelers just had no chance to get a shield in on them than it not being possible because of how the magick system works.

 

I don't recall that Eg even bothered with the shields as none were powerful enough to shield her so she ignored them.  The sul'dam/damane were targetting Eg as the biggest threat on the field, suffering as I don't believe they've come across linking before, so wouldn't be aware to try and shield somebody else, in addition Eg had her circle sheltering in relative safety, so to reach them they'd have had to go through Eg anyway (or one of the circles she had defending the stairs)...

 

When the bubble of evil/killing mist/Fain(?) hits Cads group in the Rebel Camp one of the AS suggests linking, but Cads believes it's more important that they are all capable of defending themselves and dealing with problems as they see them instead of having to call them out to her, but this is a threat of people dying in a circle not being shielded, so I'm not sure it's relevant either.

[Woolhead Prime]

Hello,

 

 Does (approaching end of ToM in re-read prior to aMOL). . Does anyone outside of Perrin's followers/Faile know about his wolf related abilities? Mainly Mat, Thom etc. I know Rand has suspicions. It just struck me during Chapter 47: A teaching chamber that Mat didn't mention anything about this.

 

Many thanks

[capuga]

Hello,

 

 Does (approaching end of ToM in re-read prior to aMOL). . Does anyone outside of Perrin's followers/Faile know about his wolf related abilities? Mainly Mat, Thom etc. I know Rand has suspicions. It just struck me during Chapter 47: A teaching chamber that Mat didn't mention anything about this.

 

Many thanks

I believe the only ones that know for sure are:

 

Faile

Elyas

Moiraine

Lan

Egwene

[Woolhead Prime]

 

Hello,

 

 Does (approaching end of ToM in re-read prior to aMOL). . Does anyone outside of Perrin's followers/Faile know about his wolf related abilities? Mainly Mat, Thom etc. I know Rand has suspicions. It just struck me during Chapter 47: A teaching chamber that Mat didn't mention anything about this.

 

Many thanks

I believe the only ones that know for sure are:

 

Faile

Elyas

Moiraine

Lan

Egwene

Thanks for your reply, makes sense. Just stuck me as odd as I couldn't recall Mat ever mentioning Perrin's eyes. In TGH when Perrin acts as a sniffer he leaves Mats side to tell Ingtar he can track (which I had wrongly thought might have been where Mat had learned something of Perrin's abilities) and I can't recall this ever getting brought up again by Mat.

 

Cheers!

[mb]

Those 5 characters know about he being a wolfbrother.

 

A number of characters know about his sharper sight.  One of those scenes being Dragon Reborn Chapter 1.

Some characters seem to know about his sharper hearing; Faile for sure.

 

For sure Moiraine and Faile knowing that he can enter telaranrhiod; I think also Elyas and maybe also Lan.  Egwene might have figured that out after she seen him in Towers of Midnight.

 

Verin might have figured out a number of those things off-screen though books.

[EmperorAllspice]

Why does this fandom consider knowledge of the AOL so much of an advantage when I've seen the Forsaken CONSTANTLY beaten again and again by "primitive" natives. Clearly the advantage isn't THAT monumentously great. The new Aes Sedai are always called "Half trained" when aside from Traveling and Compulsion I haven't seen the Forsaken use any weaves which Aes Sedai can't use now.

 

(On book 8 btw)

[Whizbang]

The main advantage in the AoL was having factories to mass produce items of power. Ter'angreal were pretty much common place. Everyone had them, even non-channelers. Also, there were schools set up, like colleges and universities of today, that studied everything from complex weaves of the OP to physics to astronomy to mathematics. Now imagine a culture much like present day, only add in some nifty magic and maybe a few hundred years of technological advancement.  That is the AoL. Now imagine a citizen of such a society. No one is a jack of all trades; that is just not possible. So, everyone specialized and just relied on the rest of society to make up for their lack in other skills.  Now here comes the interesting part. Take one of those people, specifically a crime boss of some kind. They are great at manipulating people, killing people, accruing power, but not necessarily the smartest and brightest of people (though some of the Forsaken are top in their profession of choice, but this is because of selection bias). Now take said person, who is smart, able, and used to having advanced magic and technology and dump them back in the dark ages. What can they do? They specialized in only one or two things, had only a general knowledge of everything else, and now have to learn to survive in a world that, essentially, is a step up from cave men hitting each other with rocks and clubs. Not only that, but they have a boss who demands that they function perfectly to dominate said world. How would you go about it?

Edited February 2, 2013 by Whizbang

[Suttree]

WThe new Aes Sedai are always called "Half trained" when aside from Traveling and Compulsion I haven't seen the Forsaken use any weaves which Aes Sedai can't use now.

 

(On book 8 btw)

Well you've managed to miss a fair amount for one thing.

[EmperorAllspice]

 

WThe new Aes Sedai are always called "Half trained" when aside from Traveling and Compulsion I haven't seen the Forsaken use any weaves which Aes Sedai can't use now.

 

(On book 8 btw)

Well you've managed to miss a fair amount for one thing.

 

Don't insult me. I reread like every sentence pretty much as I'm reading. (it's why i's taken so long for me to get through. Yeah, I know that Chanelers in general were stronger back then. I know that the secrets to creating angreal, sa'angreal and ter'angreal were lost too. I know about inverted weaves and all that.

 

I've also seen a person heal severing, control the weather on a notable scale without weather ter'angreal, pick apart weaves to nothing and form bonds with Warders. All things that the AOL couldn't do. and again, all this grandiose knowledge that the Forsaken has hasn't saved them.

[Suttree]

No insult intended. Just stating the facts based off your previous statement. Shrug. You also seem to be missing the fact the shadow isn't necessarily playing the game the light thinks they are.

 

Based on your posts over the last few months it sounds like this series just isn't for you, plenty of other good stuff out there. If you want some recs pm me.

Edited February 2, 2013 by Suttree

[Barid Bel Medar]

 

 

WThe new Aes Sedai are always called "Half trained" when aside from Traveling and Compulsion I haven't seen the Forsaken use any weaves which Aes Sedai can't use now.

 

(On book 8 btw)

Well you've managed to miss a fair amount for one thing.

 

Don't insult me. I reread like every sentence pretty much as I'm reading. (it's why i's taken so long for me to get through. Yeah, I know that Chanelers in general were stronger back then. I know that the secrets to creating angreal, sa'angreal and ter'angreal were lost too. I know about inverted weaves and all that.

 

I've also seen a person heal severing, control the weather on a notable scale without weather ter'angreal, pick apart weaves to nothing and form bonds with Warders. All things that the AOL couldn't do. and again, all this grandiose knowledge that the Forsaken has hasn't saved them.

 

It's basically because the civilization is totally different. 

 

Knowing about guns and missiles won't help you if you were transported back to the middle ages. 

 

Much of their knowledge and skill is derived from the level of society and technology that was present in the AoL. 

 

Aginor, for example, was totally useless in the Third Age, because he didn't have the required resources to continue his work. 

 

Yes, the Third Agers have developed some things that the AoL people didn't - however, for every instance that a 3rd Ager discovers something new, there are 10 things that they don't know how to do and the Forsaken do. 

 

Why it doesn't help in the 3rd Age is again a mixture of things. The technology and resources are unavailable. They don't have the Nym to create Chora trees, they don't have the ter'angreal to create angreal and sa'angreal.

 

Also, their main opposition is through violence. Violence is an unsubtle art. An arrow through the eye will kill you just as well as the most complex weave. The area of violence was something the AoL people didn't venture in until the last 100 years of the AoL. They didn't even know the meaning of war for most of their lives. 

 

Compare that to the 3rd Age, where war is a constant, they have had 3000 years of war and danger. 

 

But their knowledge is restricted. Most of the AoL advantages are things that are relatively useless in combat. For example, knowing how to create Cueindillar won't save you from a fireball to the face. 

 

It is analogous to the modern world. A graduate of high school level has more knowledge than probably most Kings in the Middle Ages. However, the average soldier would run circles around them for all the advanced knowledge and understanding. 

Edited February 2, 2013 by Barid Bel Medar

[EmperorAllspice]

No, I get that perfectly, it's just I see lots of people putting lots of stock in this knowledge when it comes to fights. It's more a fascination with the fandom than a criticism of the source material

 

For instance. People say that in a fair, completely even fight. Sammael could beat Rand because of his knowledge of the AOL... sorry, but I just haven't seen enough evidence of that in the story to believe that.

[Barid Bel Medar]

No, I get that perfectly, it's just I see lots of people putting lots of stock in this knowledge when it comes to fights. It's more a fascination with the fandom than a criticism of the source material

 

For instance. People say that in a fair, completely even fight. Sammael could beat Rand because of his knowledge of the AOL... sorry, but I just haven't seen enough evidence of that in the story to believe that.

 

That question is impossible to answer - it is redundant. 

 

A fight is never fair - it isn't like a sword duel. When you can kill someone with lightning and fireballs - and most of all - balefire- skill becomes redundant. 

 

It increases the chances of winning, however, the most inexperienced channeler could balefire the smartest in the world. 

 

Yes, Sammael has more knowledge than Rand does when they fight - his chances of winning were higher than Rand. However, it doesn't really mean much. Rand knows enough and is strong enough to kill Sammael.

 

Even still - Rand didn't beat Sammael anyway - in fact, Moridin had to save him, and he still couldn't kill Sammael after that. It took a sneaky Mashadar to end Sammael.

 

Similarly with Rhavin. Rhavin wasn't getting dominated - Rand held his own, better than any others probably could have, but Nynaeve snuck up and smacked him down - which even a child could do.  

[Agitel]

No, I get that perfectly, it's just I see lots of people putting lots of stock in this knowledge when it comes to fights. It's more a fascination with the fandom than a criticism of the source material

 

For instance. People say that in a fair, completely even fight. Sammael could beat Rand because of his knowledge of the AOL... sorry, but I just haven't seen enough evidence of that in the story to believe that.

 

Keep reading the series. I expect you'll see some things that help explain the way people talk.

[EmperorAllspice]

Forgive me if it's mentioned in the book itself, it's been a while, but... why in the holy name of Andraste did Bashere randomly throw a Light-forsaken KNIFE square at Rand's chest at the beginning of book 6?

[Barid Bel Medar]

To prove a point. Rand was practising using the sword. Bashere thought it was pointless, and demonstrates by throwing a knife and shows that Rand can just use saidin, and he doesn't need to bother with the sword. 

 

Pretty crazy, but Bashere is a bit like that. 

[EmperorAllspice]

Rand has been trained by Lan, Mat has been trained by his dad. Wht about Perrin? Aside ffrom Ta'veren-ness, what makes him so unstoppable in a fight? I don't remember him getting any special training in using that axe and although he's strong I doubt he's the strongest soldier in the world.

 

I know he's a superb bowman, but I mean in melee combat

[Hagazussa]

Some of the reason why the Forsaken is getting beaten is that the ones doing the defeating is often destined to do so, it is not a balanced fight however knowledge off course give an edge, a very big edge but it is not like with a computer game where stats are everything, sure most of the Forsaken would have better "stats" in the Power than the third age channelers, but that do not mean they would necessarily win in a fight. First of all fights are unpredictable and many of the Forsaken get defeated because the third agers play dirty so to speak, they use physical attacks as well which the Forsaken never expected as they where so focuses on their channeling and little else, so Nyn distracts Rahvin and she also tosses shit right smack at Moggy's head which she do not expect.

 

If I where to bet money on either Rand or Sammael in a completely fair fight I would bet on the latter, but that do not mean it would be a sure thing that he would win, yes the Forsaken know allot more about the Power but that do not mean that Rand and the others channelers in the third age are useless or that they can not put up a decent fight, obviously they can.