Ask A Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer (No AMoL Spoilers)

[PsyQuestor]

If you go over them, you'll see RJ usually referred to other stuff like Min's viewings and Hurin's skill as 'abilities'. In written medium, there's also a distinction between 'Talent' and 'talent'.

 

Having said that, feel free to present supporting quotes. I might be misinterpreting what I read.

 

 

Dreaming is the Talent of having dreams that foretell possible futures.[1] During Egwene al'Vere's training among the Aiel Wise Ones, little information was given about this aspect of the talent. The only real information is that a dreamer must decipher and know the truth of their own dreams; no one else can teach or guide it. This Talent is unconnected to the One Power.

 

Egwene Dreaming

Added by Seebster

Known DreamersEdit

Corianin Nedeal

Egwene al'Vere

Melaine

Bair

Amys

Perrin Aybara (As a Wolfbrother)

 

> When clicking on the wiki link for talent I see what you refer to, as it states channelers have talents. Again, it's nit picky to me and unimportant to the original point I was making: There are male dreamers.

[yoniy0]

Yeah, wiki isn't really canon, now is it? I agree that it doesn't seem connected to the OP, but check my next comment out.

 

Is seeing ta'veren a Talent, a talent or an ability? Siuan calls it a Talent, but she could be wrong--on the surface it doesn't seem to be tied to channelling

I totally agree with the sentiment (no reason for Randlanders in general to make that distinction even if RJ did), but you happened to pick a bad example. This one is actually tied to Siuan's chaneling ability, although there's no apparent reason for it to be:

- Someone who sees ta’veren sees them as glowing. The more strongly ta’veren, the brighter the glow. This is a Talent, and is something that only someone who can channel can do. While she was stilled, Siuan could not see ta’veren, nor could she have if she had been burned out.

[Suttree]

If you go over them, you'll see RJ usually referred to other stuff like Min's viewings and Hurin's skill as 'abilities'. In written medium, there's also a distinction between 'Talent' and 'talent'.

 

Having said that, feel free to present supporting quotes. I might be misinterpreting what I read.

 

 

Dreaming is the Talent of having dreams that foretell possible futures.[1] During Egwene al'Vere's training among the Aiel Wise Ones, little information was given about this aspect of the talent. The only real information is that a dreamer must decipher and know the truth of their own dreams; no one else can teach or guide it. This Talent is unconnected to the One Power.

 

Egwene Dreaming

Added by Seebster

Known DreamersEdit

Corianin Nedeal

Egwene al'Vere

Melaine

Bair

Amys

Perrin Aybara (As a Wolfbrother)

 

> When clicking on the wiki link for talent I see what you refer to, as it states channelers have talents. Again, it's nit picky to me and unimportant to the original point I was making: There are male dreamers.

 

Wiki is not an accepted reference. It's nice to be able to quick check basic things but if you say there are quotes supporting, it needs to come from the text or author interviews...

Edited September 7, 2011 by Suttree

[Terez]

Hint: of those most known in the fandom for expertise...none edit the Wiki.

[Sharaman]

Perrin has had prophetic dreams, although he doesn't canonically, have the Talent.

We also don't know which of the four Aiel Dreamwalkers was also a Dreamer or if all of them were.

Seana (late) counldn't and Bair can't channel. But it's possible that they have both had prophetic Dreams.

 

Furthermore, there are ter'angreal like the Rhuidean ones that allow non-channelers and non-Dreamers to have prophetic visions (although these are possible futures).

These visions can also apparently be triggered by fooling around with portal Stones ala Rand in TGH.

 

In addition, there are AS and damane whgo can fortell in some fashion.

Plus, there's Min.

Not to mention the Finn.

 

So there are many modes and routes to prophesy

[FarShainMael]

This question has come up in another thread: can a ta'veren do no wrong? Can and should they be trusted and left alone to do what they think best?

 

For: they are part of the Wheel's self-correcting mechanism.

Against: Rand nearly blew the world to bits with the CK (though he may have been stopped by the TAR-presence of another ta'veren).

 

Is this a question for Team WoT? Has it been asked before?

[yoniy0]

It's not really a simple question, but I'll say here what I thought of mentioning there.

 

ta'veren are just as fallible as the next guy (see Rand with Taim, for example, or Mat's attempting to flee Cairhien). But their effect on the Pattern works for the general plan. In this way, their pull on people and events shouldn't be doubted the same way they should.

 

For example, if Nynaeve is helpless to oppose Rand's plan to break the Seals because of his ta'veren nature, then his plan should be heeded. On the other hand, if she supports him just because she's wool-headed, that's a horse of a different color

Edited September 7, 2011 by yoniy0

[LemonPastie]

That is a very good point, Yoniy0. If someone is doing something because of the Ta'veren nature of Rand, then it is pattern ordained. Although what about Tuon? was that a case of Rand wanting to twist the pattern to himself, but the pattern resisting this by allowing Tuon to resist him? if that all makes sense...

[FarShainMael]

Wool-headed? Nynaeve?

[Din]

[...], that's a horse of a different color

I think it's quite clear that Bela is the real horse of a different colour.

[Hybrid]

If you go over them, you'll see RJ usually referred to other stuff like Min's viewings and Hurin's skill as 'abilities'. In written medium, there's also a distinction between 'Talent' and 'talent'.

 

Having said that, feel free to present supporting quotes. I might be misinterpreting what I read.

 

It could be simple confusion since in-world it's nearly always Aes Sedai who refer to 'Talents', and nearly always in the context of people who can channel. Is seeing ta'veren a Talent, a talent or an ability? Siuan calls it a Talent, but she could be wrong--on the surface it doesn't seem to be tied to channelling, and Loial could also sense ta'veren, though perhaps not in the same way. It's easy to see how Aes Sedai might link random supernatural abilities to Talents, where RJ makes a semantic distinction.

 

-- dwn

 

If I remember correctly from TEOTW, Loial didn't conclude that Rand was ta'veren until after he'd heard his story. The same goes for the other two -- Loial has to hear their stories before he concludes that they are ta'veren. In my opinion, that's not so much sensing it as recognizing its description from his studies.

[yoniy0]

dwn got confused. It was that Elder, not Loial. Doesn't really matter, though.

[mackoY-kun]

Anyone ever though that this particular prophesy:

* "How can I win the Last Battle and survive?"

* "The north and the east must be as one. The west and the south must be as one. The two must be as one. If you would live, you must die."

That the "To Live" might mean to live in the next turning of the wheel? meaning his next incarnation not this Age? Not "live through the last battle"?

[Terez]

Anyone ever though that this particular prophesy:

* "How can I win the Last Battle and survive?"

* "The north and the east must be as one. The west and the south must be as one. The two must be as one. If you would live, you must die."

That the "To Live" might mean to live in the next turning of the wheel? meaning his next incarnation not this Age? Not "live through the last battle"?

His question was 'how do I win and survive the Last Battle'.

[FarShainMael]

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/prophecies/aelfinn.html

[Turin Turambar]

It's not really a simple question, but I'll say here what I thought of mentioning there.

 

ta'veren are just as fallible as the next guy (see Rand with Taim, for example, or Mat's attempting to flee Cairhien). But their effect on the Pattern works for the general plan. In this way, their pull on people and events shouldn't be doubted the same way they should.

 

For example, if Nynaeve is helpless to oppose Rand's plan to break the Seals because of his ta'veren nature, then his plan should be heeded. On the other hand, if she supports him just because she's wool-headed, that's a horse of a different color

Maybe off point but I always thought that Mat's atempt to flee Cairhien was actually the pattern pulling him into line. That he needed to be a battle leader, therefore he needed to be in battles and gain an army.

[PrncRny]

Forgive me for not scrolling through 211 pages of posts for this answer...i'm short on time. anyway, in my current ReRead, i've just started FoH. In the prologue, we have Elaida's meeting with some Aes Sedai discussing Tower business and whatnot. At that meeting is Danelle. Forgive me if I'm wrong, cause it's been a short while, but she's the one that was eventually discovered as being Mesaana, right? I assume we don't know EXACTLY when that change took place, from being her to being Mesaana in disguise, but do we have a rough before/after point where the change is sure to have happened? I only ask because I read that section today and couldn't help but wonder if she was already there...

[capuga]

Forgive me for not scrolling through 211 pages of posts for this answer...i'm short on time. anyway, in my current ReRead, i've just started FoH. In the prologue, we have Elaida's meeting with some Aes Sedai discussing Tower business and whatnot. At that meeting is Danelle. Forgive me if I'm wrong, cause it's been a short while, but she's the one that was eventually discovered as being Mesaana, right? I assume we don't know EXACTLY when that change took place, from being her to being Mesaana in disguise, but do we have a rough before/after point where the change is sure to have happened? I only ask because I read that section today and couldn't help but wonder if she was already there...

 

She's almost definitely Mesaana by then. The first hint of something strange we get from Danelle is when the Sisters walk in to dispose Suian and Danelle gives her a smirk. Check out the FAQ for a good discussion on the clues. There should be a link in the stickies at the top of the forums.

[ShenAnCalhar]

In LoC, Rand visits the school in Carhien in "A Taste of Solitude" to check on its progress. He thinks that a new type of plow that's being developed would be a good idea, and that he should tell Idrien to build it. But per one of Moraine's suggestions, he realizes he should go through proper channels and tell Berelain to tell Idrien to build it, unless he wants to undercut her.

 

Anyone notice that he promptly disregards that advice a paragraph or two later when he tells Kin Tovere to build his telescope? Maybe Rand likes Tovere enough to risk it, or perhaps this is just an RJ miss? Either way I thought it was amusing.

[Xcorpyo001]

In LoC, Rand visits the school in Carhien in "A Taste of Solitude" to check on its progress. He thinks that a new type of plow that's being developed would be a good idea, and that he should tell Idrien to build it. But per one of Moraine's suggestions, he realizes he should go through proper channels and tell Berelain to tell Idrien to build it, unless he wants to undercut her.

 

Anyone notice that he promptly disregards that advice a paragraph or two later when he tells Kin Tovere to build his telescope? Maybe Rand likes Tovere enough to risk it, or perhaps this is just an RJ miss? Either way I thought it was amusing.

 

 

What I thought to be amusing were the other discoveries he discarded.

One was working on combustion for a locomotive.

Another was very close to make the first airplane/glider.

But he discards everything and only thinks about the plow as a big step in the future. He really is a sheepherder. And I think he had some of LTT memories at the time. And those Aiel memories of Jo-Cars. Sometimes, the girls are right. They really have to eliminate ten years to have the real age of a man.

He already worked with Tovere in the past, and he knew that it was a feasible idea. The plow was still a prototype.

[yoniy0]

Anyone ever though that this particular prophesy [...] might mean to live in the next turning of the wheel? meaning his next incarnation not this Age? Not "live through the last battle"?

Yes, that was my first take on it as well. Since than I came to believe Rand needs to die before the Last Battle is fought, meaning that he has a chance of surviving it in his current incarnation (which would be easier on the girls, certainly).

 

Maybe off point but I always thought that Mat's atempt to flee Cairhien was actually the pattern pulling him into line. That he needed to be a battle leader, therefore he needed to be in battles and gain an army.

He would've gained an army had he stayed as well; Rand knew his worth as a general before he let him leave.

 

But he discards everything and only thinks about the plow as a big step in the future. He really is a sheepherder.

Agriculture really does go to the heart of what makes us civilized. I can understand his reasoning easily enough.

[Durinax]

Aiel Blademaster, on 07 September 2011 - 02:57 PM, said:

 

 

But he discards everything and only thinks about the plow as a big step in the future. He really is a sheepherder.

 

 

Agriculture really does go to the heart of what makes us civilized. I can understand his reasoning easily enough.

 

Agriculture is the foundation for society and economy. Nomads are the only people who do not have an agricultural foundation, and they cannot advance in any meaningful way due to the sheer amount of effort being put into finding food.

[Sharaman]

IIRC in ToM, Nynaeve promises to Heal Narishma and Flynn of madness but she doesn't actually do so onscreen? Can we assume that N & F are now sane?

[mackoY-kun]

They don't really show any signs of insanity yet so...

 

Anyways, showing Nynaeve heal madness is just to point out that all the Male Channelers have a future even those that have been afflicted by some degree of madness.

[Xcorpyo001]

Aiel Blademaster, on 07 September 2011 - 02:57 PM, said:

 

 

But he discards everything and only thinks about the plow as a big step in the future. He really is a sheepherder.

 

 

Agriculture really does go to the heart of what makes us civilized. I can understand his reasoning easily enough.

 

Agriculture is the foundation for society and economy. Nomads are the only people who do not have an agricultural foundation, and they cannot advance in any meaningful way due to the sheer amount of effort being put into finding food.

 

 

Who needs flying and trains/cars?

I wasn't saying it's not important. It is. I'm saying he didn't put any thought in the others, although his incursions in the past(Aiel) and LTT's memories could have hinted to those. It seemed a little funny at the time I read that part. But he didn't stopped the research on the others either, so all is good in Randland.

Since I have first-hand experience with a plow and how one is used, I'll tell you that it will be extremely hard to use one of those without a large number of horses to pull it(they are attached to tractors). But they can merge the plow with that locomotive they already have and problem solved.