Ask A Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer (No AMoL Spoilers)

[Leyrann]

There must always be more women than men, except for 1 woman and two men. The max without a man is 13, with only one 26, with 2 (now I start having to look things up) something like 40, I can't find it, with 3, 4 and 5 are not known, and with six you can get a size of 72. More is never possible. When you have a circle of 72, a man must lead, and with a circle with the minimum men. And with a circle of only two, and mixed, a man must lead too. And there was something a woman had to lead, but I can't remember that...

 

I thought a woman had to lead when the minimum amount of men possible were present in a circle?

 

I also thought that, but it is conflicting with a man having to lead in a circle of 72. I think it is a man, in that case.

[Leyrann]

I though I had read somewhere that, with the exception of these three types of circles: 1 man and 1 woman, 2 man and 1 woman, and 2 men and 2 women, there must always be at least one more woman then there is men in a circle.

 

I don't know if I said it, but in these circles a man must lead too, I think.

[MasterAblar]

There must always be more women than men, except for 1 woman and two men. The max without a man is 13, with only one 26, with 2 (now I start having to look things up) something like 40, I can't find it, with 3, 4 and 5 are not known, and with six you can get a size of 72. More is never possible. When you have a circle of 72, a man must lead, and with a circle with the minimum men. And with a circle of only two, and mixed, a man must lead too. And there was something a woman had to lead, but I can't remember that...

 

I thought a woman had to lead when the minimum amount of men possible were present in a circle?

 

I also thought that, but it is conflicting with a man having to lead in a circle of 72. I think it is a man, in that case.

 

Perhaps a man has to lead when it's a circle of 72 which has 35 men and 37 women?

 

I though I had read somewhere that, with the exception of these three types of circles: 1 man and 1 woman, 2 man and 1 woman, and 2 men and 2 women, there must always be at least one more woman then there is men in a circle.

 

I don't know if I said it, but in these circles a man must lead too, I think.

 

I believe that is correct.

[yoniy0]

These two are the only relevant quotes I could find. Someone with the BWB could probably quote the exact rules (using Ideal Seek, I think they can be found on chapter 2, page 23):

East of the Sun Con, Stockholm, Sweden June 1995 - Karl-Johan Norén reporting

On linking he stated that 6 men is the maximum [According to the BWB, this is only the minimum number of men required to make a full circle of 72, not the maximum number of men present in a link.], and 66 is the limit for women. He also said that the "one more woman than men rule" in the Lord of Chaos glossary was invalid[This is actually supported in the BWB, so I'm not sure why he said it's invalid. Perhaps the reporter was confused.]. Complete rules for linking would be found in the WoT Guide.

 

A Crown of Swords book tour 21 June 1996, Charleston - Brian Ritchie reporting

The total number of people in a circle, when you have the maximum number of women for each man, is always divisible by three. RJ thought that there was an error in the Lord of Chaos glossary and that it had been fixed in A Crown of Swords.

[KaptainKaos]

Ah, I was mostly wondering because of the plan that Sammael, Graendal, Lanfear and Rahvin had to lure Rand to attack Sammael and then Link to kill or capture him. I wasn't sure if four people, two being men and two being women could Link. This probably just means they meant that Graendal and Lanfear would link with Rahvin while Sammael was the bait.

[Feral]

I've been doing a reread and I somehow seemed to have missed the revelation that the Oath Rod causes agelessness. I've gone from Elayne pondering the mystery of the Kin to everyone knowing. So can someone give me the chapter where it's all explained?

[yoniy0]

So can someone give me the chapter where it's all explained?

As readers we should begin suspecting it as soon as TSR, when it's made clear that the WO channel all their lives without ever gaining that look.

The part about their life expectancies is spelled out by Nynaeve in WH10, but again we should suspect it earlier, when we learn for ourselves the ages the Kin live to. WO tend to live shorter lives because the waste is such a harsh place.

[FarShainMael]

When we first meet Urien (TGH28) he sees Verin, and greets her respectfully as 'Wise One'. When Verin asks hm why, he says: 'You have the look of those who have made the journey to Rhuidean and survived. The years do not touch the Wide Wise Ones in the same way as other women, or as they touch men.'

 

Was this an error on RJ's part? Or is Urien a DF, giving a plausible reason for knowing Verin?

 

Of that group, Mat is (I think) the only one who later meets actual Aiel Wise Ones.. but this meeting with Urien was before he is healed from the dagger, so this may be one of the memories that he loses.

 

(Edited for unfortunate spilling mistrake.. )

Edited September 12, 2011 by FarShainMael

[Clayden69]

erm... I think this has been brought up before and was put down to an inconsistency. Don't take my word on that though. It might even be on 1 of the 215 pages of this thread

[FarShainMael]

Wouldn't surprise me!

 

Another thought: Are sul'dam vulnerable to the 'wilder sickness' that kills three out of four untrained channellers?

Edited September 12, 2011 by FarShainMael

[mackoY-kun]

Nope;

 

Suldam = those that can learn. (not sparkers)

Damane = sparkers, those that learn on their own a.k.a. sparkers. wilders. etc.

[Xcorpyo001]

K, another question related to this:

What will they do about suldam, since now, with the forkroot testing, every the women(or man) that can channel, sparks or no sparks, are being outed out?

Since the adam works on suldam, forkroot will work as well, right?

They'll have too many damane and not a single suldam to control them. Poor Seachan.

 

 

Question 2.

I'm on another re-read and I'm trying to look all things from more than one angle. Until now, I was under the impression that DF stopped Rand from leaving Fal Dara, but now, after reading again the sparring incident with Lan(which I thought was the hand of the BA), it jumped at me that Moiraine was the only AS in town(the rest came a little later, and the BJ didn't knew who he was, just that they had to watch them).

Was Moraine the one that tried to wound him so bad that he was forced to stay there? Lan would have said something if he suspected BA, at least a vague warning to keep them on their toes. But he does absolutely nothing(well, he gives him advice later, but..).

Was it Moiraine?

Edited September 12, 2011 by Aiel Blademaster

[Feral]

So can someone give me the chapter where it's all explained?

As readers we should begin suspecting it as soon as TSR, when it's made clear that the WO channel all their lives without ever gaining that look.

The part about their life expectancies is spelled out by Nynaeve in WH10, but again we should suspect it earlier, when we learn for ourselves the ages the Kin live to. WO tend to live shorter lives because the waste is such a harsh place.

 

So we don't actually see someone work it all out? Weird I could have sworn I remembered that happening.

[Leyrann]

K, another question related to this:

What will they do about suldam, since now, with the forkroot testing, every the women(or man) that can channel, sparks or no sparks, are being outed out?

Since the adam works on suldam, forkroot will work as well, right?

They'll have too many damane and not a single suldam to control them. Poor Seachan.

 

I don't think the a'dam will take it long, now that it is revealed to some people that sul'dam can channel too. And they'll see that the Aes Sedai are fighting the trollocs in TG.

 

 

Question 2.

I'm on another re-read and I'm trying to look all things from more than one angle. Until now, I was under the impression that DF stopped Rand from leaving Fal Dara, but now, after reading again the sparring incident with Lan(which I thought was the hand of the BA), it jumped at me that Moiraine was the only AS in town(the rest came a little later, and the BJ didn't knew who he was, just that they had to watch them).

Was Moraine the one that tried to wound him so bad that he was forced to stay there? Lan would have said something if he suspected BA, at least a vague warning to keep them on their toes. But he does absolutely nothing(well, he gives him advice later, but..).

Was it Moiraine?

 

RJ said it was one of the first Bubbles of Evil.

[Xcorpyo001]

So can someone give me the chapter where it's all explained?

As readers we should begin suspecting it as soon as TSR, when it's made clear that the WO channel all their lives without ever gaining that look.

The part about their life expectancies is spelled out by Nynaeve in WH10, but again we should suspect it earlier, when we learn for ourselves the ages the Kin live to. WO tend to live shorter lives because the waste is such a harsh place.

 

 

I don't think the 'harsh place' has much sway with the life expectancy...

The WO don't actually talk much about their age, so the ones that can channel can actually be hundreds of years old.

And Alivia is 400+ years old, and if you want to talk about harsh treatment or environment(I think she saw hundreds of battles), she can be a prime example.

 

 

Edit.

@Leyrann

Thanks for the answer. I wasn't considering that. Drat, I have to restart from scratch. And put my hands on those interviews to be on the safe side.

I thought the first Bubble of Evil was in Tear(all three at once). I know you are probably right about the answer, but I still have my doubts. For one, it wasn't...truly evil, Lan(which had a close encounter with a wave of air in NS) brushed it off and Moiraine didn't even mentions the thing, until a couple of books later.

But if RJ names it so, Bubble of Evil it is.

Edited September 12, 2011 by Aiel Blademaster

[Puny]

I´m reading tGS and Semirhage is captured. Cad and CO are forbidden to torture her (Rand Sedai´s order) so Cadsuane ponders how she is gonna break her and realizes that she is abit like Semi and she needs to figure out how to break herself. She ponders and ponders and tada... if she spanks Semi she will break. I know the spanking is not the actual point but that it´s humiliating.

 

My prob with this is... I don´t buy that Semi would think that is so humiliating. Are there any hints in her character that she would break under such circumstances (getting spanked?) For example... I do understand that Aiel would find it extremly shaming/humiliating to sort pebbles cause their society is based on usefulness/being warrioirs and so on). So if Semi was Aiel she would get such a task. I do understand that if the Aiel wanted to humiliate a wetlander I´m sure there would be lots if: "Go attend the sweattents" or "jump around naked" cause that would humiliate the wetlander. Those examples fit with the world/chars Jordan has created.

 

Can someone explain how Semi, one that was so feared her own jailors smuggled her out, someone that has tortured many people simply cause it´s fun... breaks from some quick smacks on the botton =/

Edited September 12, 2011 by Logains Pet

[csarmi]

Her image has been ruined. It's not the spanking, it's the loss of face. Semirhage values her image, her awesomeness above all.

 

Now everyone there would see her as human, as a misbehaving child. Everyone. And the tales they will carry.

Edited September 12, 2011 by csarmi

[Xcorpyo001]

I´m reading tGS and Semirhage is captured. Cad and CO are forbidden to torture her (Rand Sedai´s order) so Cadsuane ponders how she is gonna break her and realizes that she is abit like Semi and she needs to figure out how to break herself. She ponders and ponders and tada... if she spanks Semi she will break. I know the spanking is not the actual point but that it´s humiliating.

 

My prob with this is... I don´t buy that Semi would think that is so humiliating. Are there any hints in her character that she would break under such circumstances (getting spanked?) For example... I do understand that Aiel would find it extremly shaming/humiliating to sort pebbles cause their society is based on usefulness/being warrioirs and so on). So if Semi was Aiel she would get such a task. I do understand that if the Aiel wanted to humiliate a wetlander I´m sure there would be lots if: "Go attend the sweattents" or "jump around naked" cause that would humiliate the wetlander. Those examples fit with the world/chars Jordan has created.

 

Can someone explain how Semi, one that was so feared her own jailors smuggled her out, someone that has tortured many people simply cause it´s fun... breaks from some quick smacks on the botton =/

 

 

Well, she was a very powerful couple of hundreds years old person in the AoL, when spanking and public humiliation were a big no no, and they were the only one that did it after they were Forsaken.

Now, they have almost godlike status with the shadowspawn and DF, and are feared by the rest.

Even as a captive, everybody was afraid of her. To lose that status and be treated as a ten year old, and spanked and reduced to tears in front of servants, was a huge shock to her.

She took a position of power even as her undercover facade. As the Voice/Speaker of the Royal bloodline of Seachan, he could treat the most powerful person in the world like trash and get away with it.

 

But I think what really got to her was the fact that a DF/Forsaken could actually find out about that treatment, and that would be the end for her. She would became a joke for the Forsaken. Being spanked by a 'so called AS', in front of servants.

Not even Shaidar Haran will stoop that low to look at her, not to mention rape her. Well, that will be only good thing that could come out of that.

 

 

Question: What if Cadsuade captures Shaidar Haran and uses the same tactics on him? And he escapes. What will he do to her before feeding her to his Trollocs?

[Puny]

Her image has been ruined. It's not the spanking, it's the loss of face. Semirhage values her image, her awesomeness above all.

 

Now everyone there would see her as human, as a misbehaving child. Everyone. And the tales they will carry.

 

 

I´m reading tGS and Semirhage is captured. Cad and CO are forbidden to torture her (Rand Sedai´s order) so Cadsuane ponders how she is gonna break her and realizes that she is abit like Semi and she needs to figure out how to break herself. She ponders and ponders and tada... if she spanks Semi she will break. I know the spanking is not the actual point but that it´s humiliating.

 

My prob with this is... I don´t buy that Semi would think that is so humiliating. Are there any hints in her character that she would break under such circumstances (getting spanked?) For example... I do understand that Aiel would find it extremly shaming/humiliating to sort pebbles cause their society is based on usefulness/being warrioirs and so on). So if Semi was Aiel she would get such a task. I do understand that if the Aiel wanted to humiliate a wetlander I´m sure there would be lots if: "Go attend the sweattents" or "jump around naked" cause that would humiliate the wetlander. Those examples fit with the world/chars Jordan has created.

 

Can someone explain how Semi, one that was so feared her own jailors smuggled her out, someone that has tortured many people simply cause it´s fun... breaks from some quick smacks on the botton =/

 

 

Well, she was a very powerful couple of hundreds years old person in the AoL, when spanking and public humiliation were a big no no, and they were the only one that did it after they were Forsaken.

Now, they have almost godlike status with the shadowspawn and DF, and are feared by the rest.

Even as a captive, everybody was afraid of her. To lose that status and be treated as a ten year old, and spanked and reduced to tears in front of servants, was a huge shock to her.

She took a position of power even as her undercover facade. As the Voice/Speaker of the Royal bloodline of Seachan, he could treat the most powerful person in the world like trash and get away with it.

 

But I think what really got to her was the fact that a DF/Forsaken could actually find out about that treatment, and that would be the end for her. She would became a joke for the Forsaken. Being spanked by a 'so called AS', in front of servants.

Not even Shaidar Haran will stoop that low to look at her, not to mention rape her. Well, that will be only good thing that could come out of that.

 

 

Question: What if Cadsuade captures Shaidar Haran and uses the same tactics on him? And he escapes. What will he do to her before feeding her to his Trollocs?

 

Hmm... when you put it like that I guess I can understand why Cadsuane choose that as a method. If one has high thoughts about oneself then being spanked by so-called AS that you regard as children would be, humiliating, especially if that fact find it´s way to other Forsaken or DF´s ears. Thanks to both of you!

[mackoY-kun]

K, another question related to this:

What will they do about suldam, since now, with the forkroot testing, every the women(or man) that can channel, sparks or no sparks, are being outed out?

Since the adam works on suldam, forkroot will work as well, right?

They'll have too many damane and not a single suldam to control them. Poor Seachan.

 

hmmm... I can see the end of the Seanchan Empire with only this. Unlimited Damane and no Suldam. Unless we are misunderstanding the effects of forkroot.

 

Who does forkroot work on?

Does it also work on those that can learn but has not yet learned to channel? (i.e. Tuon/Fortuona) (This will equate to the end of Damane).

Or does it only work on those that have learned to channel already but not on those that have the ability to learn. (Then Damane Empire will continue on)

[MasterAblar]

K, another question related to this:

What will they do about suldam, since now, with the forkroot testing, every the women(or man) that can channel, sparks or no sparks, are being outed out?

Since the adam works on suldam, forkroot will work as well, right?

They'll have too many damane and not a single suldam to control them. Poor Seachan.

 

hmmm... I can see the end of the Seanchan Empire with only this. Unlimited Damane and no Suldam. Unless we are misunderstanding the effects of forkroot.

 

Who does forkroot work on?

Does it also work on those that can learn but has not yet learned to channel? (i.e. Tuon/Fortuona) (This will equate to the end of Damane).

Or does it only work on those that have learned to channel already but not on those that have the ability to learn. (Then Damane Empire will continue on)

 

Not neccesarily. They could just pointedly ignore the fact that the Suldam are pretty much just like the Damane. Like Tuon did in fact.

[Sharaman]

Forkroot seems to works on anybody with channeling potential - sparker or latent learner.

There's a reference in KoD I think to random women falling unconscious.

However, I think the Seanchan are used to seeing what they consider false positives and probably try an a'dam test on whoever reacts badly to forkroot.

[Suttree]

K, another question related to this:

What will they do about suldam, since now, with the forkroot testing, every the women(or man) that can channel, sparks or no sparks, are being outed out?

Since the adam works on suldam, forkroot will work as well, right?

They'll have too many damane and not a single suldam to control them. Poor Seachan.

 

hmmm... I can see the end of the Seanchan Empire with only this. Unlimited Damane and no Suldam. Unless we are misunderstanding the effects of forkroot.

 

Who does forkroot work on?

Does it also work on those that can learn but has not yet learned to channel? (i.e. Tuon/Fortuona) (This will equate to the end of Damane).

Or does it only work on those that have learned to channel already but not on those that have the ability to learn. (Then Damane Empire will continue on)

 

Do we know for sure it works on Suldam that have not taken the conscious step to learn how to channel?

[csarmi]

There are a lot of sul'dam right now and THEY won't drink forkroot tea. So it's not likely to be an issue for decades yet.

 

Or they may have realized that the forkroot tea finds sul'dam too. Why would that be a problem? They test with forkroot first and with a'dam second.

Edited September 13, 2011 by csarmi

[FarShainMael]

Wait til someone feeds it to Fortuona (mslf)..