Not sure why you use "one" all that often there. Because I'm proposing something different and it wouldn't be a universal "one" as you say. But whatever, you can go and think what you want to and I can think and believe what I want, not a big deal. I really don't have to explain anything, they could be different, they could be the same. However RJ generally writes about using the power(s) in a very specific way and that is somewhat different with Rand earlier on. In interviews B. Sanderson doesn't have any insight into who else could have lit the pipe, and that's generally not a thing people consider when thinking about it. Sure, someone could, but the main characters we're meant to believe did it are either trying not to reveal him or being distracted with other business. I also thought we read Rand going out of view, and then is setup on being on his own. So you believe what you want, that's fine and it's interesting, I just don't believe it. What do you mean Lews and Rand weren't trying to do the same thing? They were. Lews failed getting everyone together, but the plan was all there and basically Rand ended up following it. We don't know anyone who was with them if they would have filled the role of Perrin or Mat because it seems that time didn't work out and whatever details were lost to time - other than the few forsaken who came back. Thinking out loud maybe the "personal choice" RJ was talking about wasn't really at the day to day level but a deeper one that set grander things in motion one way or another. That would make sense in the context of previous attempts to close (or even open the bore) but still allow a story that's basically character predetermination to take place - maybe it's just Rands choice and that's it. I don't know, maybe RJ doesn't even know since he was more of an exploratory writer, but it's just odd he'd mention that and then write the story he did with what seems to be few choices available to characters at times.

Well and the pattern could do that if it wanted. It really needs a few core people and then that those people pull in everyone else to get along and unite. We already know Rand was around in Lews Therin the last time this was tried, and we don't know if others around him were filling the roles of Mat and Perrin - and if they failed at some point. We just see little glimpses, but in those we do get a sense that the people back then did know what needed to be done and how to do it. So maybe this was all in place before and it didn't work out. We do know this has happened before, many times, and that it will happen again. That repetition may be what RJ means by some of his self determination comments. Maybe it's not so much the typical choice in this story, but it's a choice throughout different times in the whole pattern. Dunno, because there isn't much in the book that says a lot about personal choice other than in a few places with Rand. The rest of them are either drawn in, are what they are and live with it, or their choice is learn and grow or go crazy or die early. I'm still working on that, and maybe I'll progress a bit if/when I re-read the series in a few years.

I'll have to pay more attention to that if/when I get to a re-read. Because it's later described as a sickness and foul oily or something. So I still think at first it's him finding something different, before he learned and got training, which went in the more normal direction. Not sure, it's vague, but RJ throws back a lot to the first few books in his final chapters so it'd make sense something is in there that foreshadows the pipe. Sure, Moiraine said Rand did it that way, but that's her frame of reference, she may not know there is a totally different way unrelated to the 3 main powers.

I'm in the middle of the 2nd to the last book. My opinion has changed a little. Someone should really read Narnia, and Belgariad before WOT. So many similar themes, and I think the "oh that's where it's from" could be more fun in WOT than the other way around. Either way though, if someone is looking for series to go through it's totally worth the time.

So a few quick things. Rand being the creators champion. I'm reading Belgariad at the moment and some of the setup is pretty similar. In that series the voice in the main characters head IS what would be here the Creator, and or the good gods played a larger role in the outcome. That series also has a similar set of the classic "the group" that could be tied here to the concept of ta'veren. I have the opinion that after the first few books R. Jordan really re-tooled the story and started to go down a different path with some of his ideas. But yeah, it's just odd having a story with a very directly involved evil side and what seems to be an uninvolved good side, given the stakes - but RJ's whole setup and concept there is odd, so par for the course. Going back to what Hero said about Mat. We saw the Horn take on a new member in the course of the story we read and in that timeline. We don't know I guess if he was already in it, and born out of it, but either way he is there and we read of comments that this can happen. When Mat asks about it, he isn't given an answer, not even one like in the first books of "maybe you can be one". Which leads me to think that the pattern weaves out at least 3 people together at a time who are different - the hornblower, the banner man, and the Dragon. Or, looking at it a step back from the horn - the general, the wolf person, and the Dragon. So I view them all as personalities that have come before, and have been involved in these events countless times. IMO just bored this afternoon

So a few things as to some of your "why" questions. These books aren't that deep in lore, and a lot of it is because B. Sanderson or R. Jordan thought of something they wanted to include, and then they wrote it in. So why did the seals start to break, the plot wanted it to happen at that point, I mean when would be a better time? On the ending, I'm assuming that the really short chapters are what R. Jordan had already written or notated and were almost word for word. That ending makes way more sense when compared to the first few books. Other than the journey to get to the ending took a lot more books to set everything up, and even then it could have gone on longer. There was a little difference in the characters when B. Sanderson picked it up. He went down the "talk about feelings" route a little too much for me, but I get he needed to setup Rand laughing and that wouldn't have as much impact if he was set and knew what he needed to be. (If memory serves me, it's been a while). But after finishing it, and going through A New Spring and some of the first book for fun, it's more seamless than some want to make it out to be, at least for me.

I'm getting to the end of the first Belgariad book. Yeah, I'd say it's worth a read for someone who wants to stay within the sword and sorcery. Kind of slow to get going, detail seems to be in the middle between a condensed to the point story and something like WOT. Magic system seems to be more mysterious so far. Then yeah, there are enough similarities to get a smile and laugh here and there with "oh I know what that is" or "I've seen this before". Thanks for the recommendation!

The flip side of that is when Rand had the ability to destroy the pattern and everything, then didn't. You'd think with all the times this has happened, one of those times would end up destroying everything. We also have those portal stones from the first book that showed a bunch of different visions or even patterns. Just things to think about. I'm not going to read into anything too much. In the last part of the New Spring audio book there is a R. Jordan interview where he says something about these books being about "free will" but they fall more into predetermination, rather than self determination. That's fine, but with other things these books seem to be more of what the author(s) thought was fun or cool to do rather than something deeper.

That's the way I took it, looking back over things. 3-4 men/women were needed to seal the bore, Perrin was needed to lead the wolves, and Mat was needed to lead the armies and blow the horn. It's a pattern, and from the way it seems it's been repeated before and those people have met before. Well and it's not like they "can't" be bound, in a way they are bound to it, they just can't join the heroes because that's not their place. An interesting side note I just thought of, but channelers aren't bound to the horn, so that's kind of weird. But yeah, it seems like this type of "last battle" happens often enough where it's a thing and the same players appear each time.

I think they are worthwhile, being around that (not anywhere close to a historian here in this context) first generation or so of what we would call fantasy. Or at least what seems to be the split from fairy tails and folklore and into the fantasy we would know. They are children's books, are very to the point, and are pretty short. I'd skip the Magicians Nephew until later in the series, or just power through it if the audio book starts with that one (mine did). The last book "The Last Battle" is ok, I studied Revelation from the Bible so I could get some of it and what he was going for, but I can give or take the first part of that book. Growing up, I wished these stories were used to teach kids about the Bible and faith, the concepts are easier to get here (and I'm sure in other of his writings) than trying to slog through parts of the Bible. So yeah, I'd recommend. It's short, some books are better than others, but it's worth it and it's a historical series. I'll check out Belgariad, I'm looking for something new to move on to at the moment.

Just a quick note, finished the Narnia books lately, and wanted to come back to this before going on to other things. It's super interesting how a lot of the WOT pulls from Narnia, and some of the themes or things going on there. Not a one for one, but yeah, plenty of stuff was like "oh this is this" and it was pretty interesting.

They had self determination, but they were put there by the pattern and were needed by the pattern. Yes they were great, but everyone needed one another to reach the end the pattern needed.

iirc on this... I guess in my take on this we aren't sure exactly where those columns came from. Aviendha touches it, and didn't recognize them as anything angreal or saangreal. There seems to be a bunch of stuff in this world that just is there. The horn is one, and things like this could be others. Who knows where they came from, maybe the pattern set them in place and they are "they are" rather than being made. Dunno, but that's how it came across to me. I thought the city was built later, because after the fall or the bore was opened the Aiel went into exile and tried to bring with them all of the items trusted to them by Aes Sedai. I had thought that trek ended at that city site, and then the city built around it. Maybe I'm wrong. From listening to R. Jordans quick audio book interview at the end of A New Spring, I have a different take on the "prophecy". This is explained in a different thread, my review after I fished the book. At least with the end of the last age, it wasn't prophecy at all. They knew exactly what had to be done. It was detailed instructions. Then, as time went on, primary sources were lost, accounts were lost, and all that was left of the plan was fragments that were now framed more in lore and legend rather than a how-to procedure. The only issue they had before was no one got along enough to trust one another to do it, thus it didn't work. Either way maybe I'm missing something, and either way this is all just an essay and opinion (even yours) since as per my other post, B. Sanderson said that he wrote this because he wanted to. It's not any deeper or more thought out than just a scene the author wanted to include because why not.

Just a thought, after finishing the books a while back and sitting in this working from home meeting... Rand and the DO were showing each other various outcomes in the last battle. I have to wonder out loud if some of these terangereal type things do this. Channelers can tap into them and have the ability to create a reality for someone of their choosing. Although it's more limited in control than what Rand and the DO were doing.

I don't think any of them did, which to me is part of the point. In a way they mirror the interests and politics of the "good" forces. They are all selfish, only in it for themselves, and at most loosely work together. The difference is that the countries and factions finally coalesced under Rand where the forsaken never really unified. Which, again to me, is part of the lesson of the books. It's about working together, living together, and in a way not wanting to upset the laws of nature they were given. The world falls apart when everyone goes their own ways and acts in their self interest or tries to get around the magic system they were given to use. In the end, when Rand is fighting the DO, he realizes that everything he is being shown is a lie, or at least something to that effect. So really, the question of who is the best isn't really the right question since the DO was lying to them to (iirc) save all the power for themself. Using forsaken was just a means to an end. To get back to your question, right now after going through it once I'm not sure which forsaken came the closest. Because, in the end they were all defeated. In fact, it was through their own actions that the last battle could have been won anyway, since someone was needed to wield the true power.