Ask A Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer (No AMoL Spoilers)

[Ashandarei]

Rand's bonds:

- Alanna bonded Rand

- Elayne bonded Birgitte

- Avi and Elayne adopted eachother as first sisters (thanks Amys)

- Elayne/Avi created an Aiel sort of bond (the same kind Amys did for her and Avi) between Rand/Avi/Elayne/Min).

 

So Min didn't "bond" Rand no more than Rand "bonded" Min. Elayne and Avi together created the weave that included all 4 of them. It's not "the other way around", it's a real four-some bond going all direction.¹ All four feel the three others. With a bit of Birgitte and Alanna in the mix.

 

¹ I may be wrong, but I was under impression that Elayne, Min, and Avi all are bonded to Rand, but only Elayne/Avi have any kind of bond between the girls and even they don't have a full warder bond, more like a vague analogue of it. In fact, I'm quite certain that no bond exists between Min and either of the other two girls. Elayne/Avi didn't first-sister bond Min, they only used a weave "similar" to that weave in order to include Min in the warder bonding process so she too could be bonded to Rand. That's why you never read anywhere in the books of Min thinking/wondering/knowing about where Elayne/Avi are or vice versa, whereas they all mention Rand and his whereabouts/direction many a time.

[Sid]

 

But Mat has seen Rand and Min naked together in his ta'veren color swirling visions.

 

Wow, I totally forgot about that. Ha!

 

I always wanted them to meet up again somehow before the last book since all we have for viewings of Mat came in the first third of the first book in the series (and one still might not be fulfilled ) but they always seem to miss each other by a few weeks or so even though they often go to the same places.

[dholm]

You're not wrong.

 

As far as I understood it, Aviendha and Elayne bonded Rand in the regular way, while Elayne made a version of the Warder bond between Min and Rand, modified by what she learned from the sister bonding ceremony. Whether or not the bond between Rand and Min would snap the same way if Rand was severed is an interesting question.

[Aquarius]

Carefully she wove Spirit, a flow of over a hundred threads,

every thread placed just so, and laid the weave on Aviendha

sitting on the floor, then did the same to Min on the table's

edge. In a way, they were not two separate weaves at all. They

glowed with a precise similarity, and it seemed that looking

at one, she saw the other as well. These were not the weaves

used in the adoption ceremony, but they used the same

principles. They included; what happened to one meshed in that

weave, happened to all in it. As soon as the weaves were in

place, she passed the lead of the circle of two to Aviendha.

The weaves already made remained, and Aviendha immediately

wove identical weaves around Elayne, and around Min again,

blending that one until it was indistinguishable from Elayne's

before passing control back. They did that very easily now,

after a great deal of practice. Four weaves, or rather, three

now, yet they all seemed the same weave.

Everything was ready. Aviendha was a rock of confidence as

strong as anything Elayne had ever felt from Birgitte. Min sat

gripping the edge of the table, her ankles locked together;

she could not see the flows, but she gave an assured grin that

was only spoiled a little when she licked her lips. Elayne

breathed deeply. To her eyes, they three were surrounded and

connected by a tracery of Spirit that made the finest lace

seem drab. Now if only it worked as she believed it would.

From each of them, she extended the weave in narrow lines

toward Rand, twisting the three lines into one, changing it

into the Warder bond. That, she laid on Rand as softly as if

she were laying a blanket on a baby. The spiderweb of Spirit

settled around him, settled into him. He did not even blink,

but it was done. She let go of saidar. Done.

it seems you're right. Although the description of the weave is a bit misleading. The rest of the capter implies that Min senses Rand but nobody else. While Elayne senses Birgitte, Aviendha and Rand, for example.

[yoniy0]

The Bond between Rand and each of his girlfriends isn't dependent on his channeling ability; on his side it's the same as the warder Bond (which likely means that he can't mask it, and Elayne/Aviendha could use it to control him if they so wished and he wasn't holding sai'din when they tried).

There is no Bond between the girlfriends themselves as a result of that incident (Aviendha and Elayne took each other as first-sisters, but that's beside the point). What they did while Bonding Rand was only to make the Bond work for all three of them, rather than each Bonding him in turn (which Min couldn't have done, naturally, which is probably why they opted for that weave).

 

Nevertheless, each and every one of those who are aware of a strange connection between Rand and Min is aware of the Ashaman method of Bonding, and therefore initially assumed Rand Bonded Min (we're told that much in the books). None but Nynaeve has had reason to revisit that assumption, and even she only has a clue that Elayne Bonded Rand (or vice-versa), and that only if she's as perceptive as Egwene (she had other things to worry about at the time of Elayne's slip of the tongue). I find it highly unlikely that anyone else guessed the real nature of their Bond.

[username13]

In ToM in the Perrin vs Slayer in the nightmare thing Perrin was described as having the Dreamspike in one hand, the staff in one hand, and the knife he kinda poked Slayer with in one hand... when did he get the extra hand?

[Woolhead Prime]

The Bond between Rand and each of his girlfriends isn't dependent on his channeling ability; on his side it's the same as the warder Bond (which likely means that he can't mask it, and Elayne/Aviendha could use it to control him if they so wished and he wasn't holding sai'din when they tried).

There is no Bond between the girlfriends themselves as a result of that incident (Aviendha and Elayne took each other as first-sisters, but that's beside the point). What they did while Bonding Rand was only to make the Bond work for all three of them, rather than each Bonding him in turn (which Min couldn't have done, naturally, which is probably why they opted for that weave).

 

Nevertheless, each and every one of those who are aware of a strange connection between Rand and Min is aware of the Ashaman method of Bonding, and therefore initially assumed Rand Bonded Min (we're told that much in the books). None but Nynaeve has had reason to revisit that assumption, and even she only has a clue that Elayne Bonded Rand (or vice-versa), and that only if she's as perceptive as Egwene (she had other things to worry about at the time of Elayne's slip of the tongue). I find it highly unlikely that anyone else guessed the real nature of their Bond.

 

Lots more interesting points! Just out of interest, the point on Elayne/Aviendha potentially controlling Rand so long as he wasn't holding saidin, is this a fact that is revealed later in ToM? (I am only about 300 pages in) I just wondered as I don't recall anyone being bonded and controlled, and this being affected by their holding the saidin or saidar. (I am not doubting your right just hoping I haven't missed anything!)

[yoniy0]

when did he get the extra hand?

It was a nightmare, after all

 

Lots more interesting points! Just out of interest, the point on Elayne/Aviendha potentially controlling Rand so long as he wasn't holding saidin, is this a fact that is revealed later in ToM? (I am only about 300 pages in) I just wondered as I don't recall anyone being bonded and controlled, and this being affected by their holding the saidin or saidar. (I am not doubting your right just hoping I haven't missed anything!)

We saw Myrelle using her Bond with Lan to control him (she touched a weave of Spirit to the Bond to make him obey), and Alanna told Verin that she tired to do the same with Rand immediately after Bonding him but it didn't work (he was holding sai'din at the time). We know (I think Rahvin or Sammael told us that) that Compulsion doesn't work on one holding sai'din, but it does on a woman holding sai'dar (Graendal was able to Compel Cyndane and Moghedien when they came to summon her to Moridin), and indeed Logain was able to make Toveine obey him after Bonding her even though she was holding sai'dar. These facts put together make a compelling argument, I think. I can't recall at the moment whether RJ confirmed this theory.

[Woolhead Prime]

when did he get the extra hand?

It was a nightmare, after all

 

Lots more interesting points! Just out of interest, the point on Elayne/Aviendha potentially controlling Rand so long as he wasn't holding saidin, is this a fact that is revealed later in ToM? (I am only about 300 pages in) I just wondered as I don't recall anyone being bonded and controlled, and this being affected by their holding the saidin or saidar. (I am not doubting your right just hoping I haven't missed anything!)

We saw Myrelle using her Bond with Lan to control him (she touched a weave of Spirit to the Bond to make him obey), and Alanna told Verin that she tired to do the same with Rand immediately after Bonding him but it didn't work (he was holding sai'din at the time). We know (I think Rahvin or Sammael told us that) that Compulsion doesn't work on one holding sai'din, but it does on a woman holding sai'dar (Graendal was able to Compel Cyndane and Moghedien when they came to summon her to Moridin), and indeed Logain was able to make Toveine obey him after Bonding her even though she was holding sai'dar. These facts put together make a compelling argument, I think. I can't recall at the moment whether RJ confirmed this theory.

 

Thanks very much.

[Dante282]

in tGS Rand balefires Semirhage by chanelling the TP, yet in the 13th depository, RJ states that being shielded from the source also shields one from the the TP. Has this been clarified at all??

[csarmi]

He was not shielded from the source. He was being controlled by the a'dam, but that is NOT a shield (as he could cast and all that, just not decide what).

[Val Mickey]

In ToM in the Perrin vs Slayer in the nightmare thing Perrin was described as having the Dreamspike in one hand, the staff in one hand, and the knife he kinda poked Slayer with in one hand... when did he get the extra hand?

The spike is a thin silver rod. Couldn't he hold it along with the knife?

 

in tGS Rand balefires Semirhage by chanelling the TP, yet in the 13th depository, RJ states that being shielded from the source also shields one from the the TP. Has this been clarified at all??

 

Good catch. But Rand isn't shielded with the Domination Band - he's in a circle. It's still murky.

[vanceme]

In the shadow rising may's ashandarei is described as "black hafted" and with an "iron hard black haft." In tgs it smoulders after an encounter with normal fire. I believe the haft is described as wood but I'm not positive. Does anyone know if there is a description pre-sanderson of mat's weapon as anything other than aes sedai made or about the material of the haft?

[AvroChris]

In the shadow rising may's ashandarei is described as "black hafted" and with an "iron hard black haft." In tgs it smoulders after an encounter with normal fire. I believe the haft is described as wood but I'm not positive. Does anyone know if there is a description pre-sanderson of mat's weapon as anything other than aes sedai made or about the material of the haft?

 

From the first description of it:

Pulling the strange spear to him, he ran his fingers along the black shaft. A line of some strange cursive script ran it's length, bracketed by a pair of birds inlaid in metal even darker than the wood.

Voila. Evidently only the blade is protected against damage, although the wood does seem to be strengthened somehow as I'm sure it's deflected a myrddraal's sword before.

[Dante282]

@Val and csarmi, oh yea..should have realised tha :P Thanks for clearing that up

[Terrapin]

Thanks to all who posted responses to my previous question about manatherin's lineage. My apologies over a belated thanks, the last week has been hectic.

 

Recently, I have been thinking about the nature of balefire. Wiki relates the effect of balefire as burning threads of the pattern. (i.e, unraveling weavings so that previous outcomes are null and burning the 'soul/thread' of said person so they are no longer able to be respun) (generalization). Without dealving into the Dark ones possible use/ banning of balefire, its nature seems to be paradox. Typically, Balefire destroys anything on contact; yet, when Moridin and Al'thor cross streams, a bond is created. Creation from destruction or vice versa. I could view reluctance for Balefire's use due to AOL chanelers not understanding the nature of said force. If the 'balance in all things' arguement is allowed, possible paradox is further enforced in Towers of Midnight prologue pg 32 (hardback), when Graendal flees:

 

"A blinding light rose behind her. She struggled to dismiss the gateway, and caught one glimpse of the horrified Aran'gar begore everything behind was consumed in beautiful, pure whiteness. The gateway vanished, leaving Graendal in darkness. ...........A wave of wrongness washed over her, a warping in the air, the Pattern itself rippling. A balescream,it was called-a moment when creation itself howled in pain."

 

I find the concept of balefire as possible paradox or maybe something else. The creators side has been refered to as the 'light' and the dark one's as the 'shadow' (generalization). A beautiful light destroying seems contrary to the generalizations made within the series. Adding in cuendellar as one of the only things able to withstand balefire, and the idea that the only thing able to break the strongest material known is something else made of that material, balrefire seems intriguing in nature.

 

Summary: I'm considering the continuing concept of balefire throughout the series, and would appreciate direction to informative discussion about the concept. I don't want to ramble further. Thanks for taking the time to consider my inquiry.

[LemonPastie]

She struggled to dismiss the gateway...

 

why? Did the balefire cause the gateway to want to stay open?

[Sharaman]

There's a long thread on

"Balefire doesn't work like that"

[AnthonyJamesEnglish]

I wonder if it's possible to create a weave opposite to balefire that repairs/returns threads of the pattern rather than destroying them... :B surely if you can create a thread that destroys while affecting time you could create one that does the reverse?

[Thorgan]

(during the earlier books)

Do we know where lanfear is when she's not seducing Rand?

I think there are two scenes where she uses a gateway and on the other end there is a palace of white marvel with wallhangings (if I remember correctly).

 

Any idea where that is?

Edited March 14, 2011 by Thorgan

[yoniy0]

Any idea where that is?

Absolutely not.

[mb]

I think there are two scenes where she uses a gateway and on the other end there is a palace of white marvel with wallhangings (if I remember correctly).

Any idea where that is?

She was in the White Tower for some time up through Dragon Reborn. That place might fit the description. I think you meant "marble" instead of "marvel".

If not White Tower, several other places might fit the description. Each of which a Forsaken resided in; Rahvin, Sammael, Graendal.

 

Just to make sure, where in the books is the scene? and whose POV?

[PhoenixUK]

Just to make sure, where in the books is the scene? and whose POV?

i think it's after the trollocs invade the stone of tear in TSR

[Finnssss22]

tSR chapt 58 is one of them, Rand's PoV when she opens a portal to leave Rhuidean.

[Evoke]

I wonder if it's possible to create a weave opposite to balefire that repairs/returns threads of the pattern rather than destroying them... :B surely if you can create a thread that destroys while affecting time you could create one that does the reverse?

 

I think that would be more like trying to re-weave that thread through existence. A bit more difficult than simply burning it out.

 

Interesting idea though. With a large enough circle, it may be possible. What would the weave track while reweaving a thread though? The memories of the countless other threads that interacted with it? Does a stone have memory? Everything has a weave, and each weave is laced together with countless others. Each weave carries a memory of the other weaves it has (I'm starting to feel like this is a sewing club...) woven through. Or maybe there are faint traces of its previous existence throughout the lace?

 

If it were as simple as targeting the residue of the balefire used, it'd be a complete cop-out. Like, "Nu'hu! Can't balefire him! I shot your light with my light so that cancels them out."