The Big (Currently) Unoticed Thing In Books 4-6 (Mistborn Spoilers)

[makaveli422]

He does have that woman on his list its in TGS Chp 29 Pg 443. She is not named but she is second on his list. I thought the list didn't start till FOH after Moiraine "died".

[JustaName]

I have came in late to this discussion. So forgive me if that has already been thought of. I will bet that the big thing people largely have been ignoring is the being forcefully turned to the darkone. I bet all of the Aes Sedia that have been sent to bond Ashman at the tower were forcefully turned evil and those along with all of the Dark fiend Sedia and Ashman become the Dread Lords.

[Auld Manriva]

What of the big three themselves? Rand, Mat and Perrin. At what point was it that they all went their own merry ways? It seems as though their seeing colors and having visions of each other has been going on for a while. And has become more prevalent, or at least, the images clearer. Is the fact that they have been physically separated for some time, yet feeling ever more and more drawn toward each other more significant than we may have previously thought? Is it possible that this could also tie into the three become one prophecy?

 

When DID that start happening? Book 6 maybe? I've discounted it here cause I thought it started later and I vaguely recall seeing some bit of discussion about the effect. I've always thought it an incredible tool they needed to develop and I've been annoyed as hell they've not done so (another "what we have here is a lack o' ..communicashun" thing thats so damnably aggravating). With Rand accepting it some bit more in TGS it looks to be on the way to being something more "fleshed out". If the timeline fits (and I'm not sure at all) it could very well be TBUT.

[MatrixM]

I have came in late to this discussion. So forgive me if that has already been thought of. I will bet that the big thing people largely have been ignoring is the being forcefully turned to the darkone. I bet all of the Aes Sedia that have been sent to bond Ashman at the tower were forcefully turned evil and those along with all of the Dark fiend Sedia and Ashman become the Dread Lords.

That was introduced in 2 or 3 to Egwene and co.

[rubbernilly]

Standard apology: I have not read the entire thread, so forgive if this is not new.

 

What about the Gholam wanting to be free of its master? There is that line that 'it's mind held the idea of being finally free.' Could be a gholam~Golem connection... In tLotR, Golem inadvertantly 'aids' Frodo in the destruction of the ring, something neither of the would have wanted to do on their own.

 

I just hope that we recognize whatever it is when it happens... that we have an 'a-ha' moment of, 'oh, that seed was planted many moons ago... cool.'

[Random Man]

Standard apology: I have not read the entire thread, so forgive if this is not new.

 

What about the Gholam wanting to be free of its master? There is that line that 'it's mind held the idea of being finally free.' Could be a gholam~Golem connection... In tLotR, Golem inadvertantly 'aids' Frodo in the destruction of the ring, something neither of the would have wanted to do on their own.

 

I just hope that we recognize whatever it is when it happens... that we have an 'a-ha' moment of, 'oh, that seed was planted many moons ago... cool.'

 

Probably not, since we don't see a Gholam POV until tPoD. The first whiff we see of a Gholam at all is at the end of LoC where he kills Master Fel.

[Jessica]

I thought that one possibility might be the Aiel returning to Rhuidean.  I know someone has mentioned it as well.  However, I asked at the book signing tonight "Why are the Aiel returning to Rhuidean?", and the response was that not all Aiel that are returning to the Waste are going to Rhuidean, and the ones that are in Rhuidean are there to rebuild the city.  So that's not it:(

[dwn]

Someone mentioned this above, but I don't think it got the attention it deserved:

 

The bubbles of evil.

 

I've had a vague theory percolating for a while now, that the bubbles of evil, switching corridors, ghosts, and odd deaths might be a "leaking" between the real world and tel'aran'rhiod.

 

(This is different than the food spoilage and infertility of the land, which are clearly a Fisher King tie-in to Rand.)

 

1) All these things deal with the human world (people, places), not the natural/wild world. The natural world, aside from dead wolves, doesn't have much of a reflection in T'A'R.

 

2) The bubbles of evil are very similar to the bubbles of nightmare encountered by dreamers. Consider the first three bubbles of evil: Rand's mirrors (Rand doesn't know who he is); Perrin's axe attack (an ongoing theme with him); Mat's card's attacking him (fear of the supernatural i.e. his newfound luck).

 

3) The switching corridors and ghosts are very much like the transient nature of many aspects of T'A'R. Consider a Brown sister afraid of being demoted to novice and what sort of nightmare she could have.

 

4) Catching on fire and coughing up insects are obvious nightmare themes.

 

5) In the hands of the Forsaken, perhaps the sleepweaver ter'angreal might serve a more nefarious purpose than just giving access to T'A'R.

 

Edit:

 

6) Being lost, especially in familiar surroundings, is a very common dream element.

 

-- dwn

 

[Jareth Bixx]

Someone mentioned this above, but I don't think it got the attention it deserved:

 

The bubbles of evil.

 

I've had a vague theory percolating for a while now, that the bubbles of evil, switching corridors, ghosts, and odd deaths might be a "leaking" between the real world and tel'aran'rhiod.

 

(This is different than the food spoilage and infertility of the land, which are clearly a Fisher King tie-in to Rand.)

 

1) All these things deal with the human world (people, places), not the natural/wild world. The natural world, aside from dead wolves, doesn't have much of a reflection in T'A'R.

 

2) The bubbles of evil are very similar to the bubbles of nightmare encountered by dreamers. Consider the first three bubbles of evil: Rand's mirrors (Rand doesn't know who he is); Perrin's axe attack (an ongoing theme with him); Mat's card's attacking him (fear of the supernatural i.e. his newfound luck).

 

3) The switching corridors and ghosts are very much like the transient nature of many aspects of T'A'R. Consider a Brown sister afraid of being demoted to novice and what sort of nightmare she could have.

 

4) Catching on fire and coughing up insects are obvious nightmare themes.

 

5) In the hands of the Forsaken, perhaps the sleepweaver ter'angreal might serve a more nefarious purpose than just giving access to T'A'R.

 

-- dwn

 

I hadn't thought about the T'A'R tie in when I mentioned the bubbles of evil earlier, but dang, now my brain is spinning..

[NARISMA]

I Didn't read all the post here so if somebody else mentioned this sorry for posting this again.

I think that the big unoticed thing is Nynaeve healing death-bringing rand from dead.In the books 4 and 6 several times is mentioned that Nynaeve would not have rest till she heals 3 day dead body.This could be bigger than revealing who killed Asmo,because it fits with one of finns answers to live you must die.

[Orderofolde]

It can't be the Traveling People's song, it was mentioned in TEoTW.  My money is on the Ael and Eel, the hints of Snakes and foxes with the game Olver plays as giving them hints to defeat the Ael and Eel with the opening words about music and steel/iron, and the motion made with hands.

 

It could also be that Min's visions of Logain and the crown in his visions that he shares with Rand could mean that Logain is really the Dragon Reborn, that when Gentled, the Pattern picked Rand out as he was so strongly Taviren.  His lands were small and located in the mountains he had stripped from him (born there, or his father as a noble and his mother leading their armsmen to battle the Aiel and could have been born in a camp in the foothills or close to Dragonmount).  I don't know if we've ever seen his age compared to Rand?  Too many babies and mothers were unaccounted for when Moraine and Siuan were novices taking names and later hunting them down.  And we already know that Rand is trying too hard to follow the Prophesy.  RJ was really into "What you think you know you don't really" type of twists.

[MatrixM]

And how exactly would Logain have been "born of a Maiden"?

[Netizen]

Hi.

 

I was in the middle of this thread when it struck me that it has to be the 'colors' that swirl whenever Rand, Mat or Perrin think of each other. It's been going on for a while now, doesn't seem to get much discussion on here, and could add up top something huge later on.

 

And then I noticed that someone else mentioned it before me - bah!

 

 

[lillcheese]

And how exactly would Logain have been "born of a Maiden"?

 

IIRC, the prophecy says "born of a maiden wed to no man."  I've always had a quibble - Tigraine was still married.  Since Rand is older than Elayne, her father was still alive when Rand was born. 

[MatrixM]

Maiden's are wed to the spear, no man.

 

And that still doesn't address the maiden part.

[lillcheese]

Logain could have been the result of teen pregnancy or something.  Just because we don't here much about that sort of thing doesn't mean anything.  Why can't he be a bastard?

 

Of course, Logain needs some heron and dragon marking to start quick if he's going to catch up on prophecy fulfillment.

[Mr Ares]

Perhaps it has been mentioned already in this thread, or even consensus reached on what it may actually be(20 pages of forum posts is a lot to catch up on), but when did bubbles of evil first start manifesting?

The term is first ued in book 4, but we first see one at the beginning of book 2 - it's what drives Rand onto Lan's practice sword.

 

Do bubbles of evil, the Dark One's touch on the world, have anything to do with Rand's (or Mat or Perrin's) taveren nature?

Well, when they first started appearing, they were attracted to the ta'veren, but as time goes by we see them hitting prety much anywhere.

It does appear as the time line progresses (and especially noticeable in tGS), that the further into madness Rand slips and the "harder" he becomes, the more apparent and blatant the physical manifestations of the DO's touch are on the world around Rand.

 

For instance, as he is preparing to leave Bandar Eban, having decided there is nothing more he can do for them, essentially abandoning them, ALL of the food he has brought spoils.

That's not a Bubble of Evil, or Shai'tan's touch on the world, it's to do with the darkness in Rand. "The land is one with the Dragon." Confirmed by BS.

 

What about the alternate worlds? Rand and Hurin travel along them for awhile. I don't know how they would impact the plot in any way though since they were only mentioned in one book.

And that book was book 2. Too early to be relevant.

 

Basic workings of the power.

The OP and its workings were introduced in book 1, so again, too early.

 

When did Fain's dagger first show up? I wonder what effect stabbing the DO with that would have.

Book 1. And is it possible to stab Shai'tan?

 

The Tinkers are looking for the song, that they lost in the AoL.  Plot devices beings as they are, the land needs healed.  It seems that the weather is directly connected to Rand's state of mind.  Rand is half-Aiel, whom are decended from the Tinkers, who are looking for the Song.

 

In short:  RAND WILL FIND THE SONG.

 

It's probably really wrong, and will be debunked in the next post.  Overall, I've finally contributed to the DM community, and I'm satisfied.

The Song was shot down on page 12. It was ruled out on a list of things Brandon's assistant said were not correct.

 

My recollection is really shaky b/c it's been quite a while since i read books 4-8 or so. Does anybody have information regarding the Ways?  When was the last time we get an account of the state of the Ways?  Wasnt there something different about the Ways the last time we get an account?  I'm reaching here but maybe something's there.

The Ways were introduced too early to be relevant, in book 1. We do see them in book 4, and since then efforts have been made to block them off, but they were introduced too soon. Unless it was the efforts to seal off the Waygates, and set Ogier guards on them.

 

Look at how the scenes with the first Luca in Book 4 through Rand's pov, compare to the later Valan Luca actions in trying to "save" missing females from danger.  "Nyaneve" in Samara tFOH Ch.40, "Maigran, Colline" in tSR Ch.25, in both cases a Luca does in fact attempt to "save" a female(s).

Irrelevant. There is no evidence to support Valan Luca being an Aiel reborn, being a hero, being in any way related to Luca, or being the third man. Now, maybe he was what BS was referring to, maybe, but the rest of the theory is pure crackpot and doesn't have a shred of evidence in favour of it. And yes, I did read all the relevant posts in this thread. Not a shred of evidence. The similarity in name doesn't say a damn thing. Look at the examples we have of reborn people where we know past and  current names: Rand al'Thor sounds almost exactly like Lews Therin Telamon, and Birgitte is so close to Maerion and Teadra.

 

I haven't read all the pages of this thread so don't know if this has been suggested.

You do realise that now, no matter how good your suggestion is, I do have to smack your head off your computer desk and tell you not to do it again? Nothing personal, it's the rules.

 

One thing I will say is that on here people are looking at big things that happened in the books like meeting Aiel, surely the focus should be on small things that may be overlooked, like a seemingly offhand comment; most characters have been discussed to death.

Now that's good point. People still keep bringing up stuff from too early, too late, too obvious, stuff that's been ruled out, but this is something that's been overlooked.

 

Ch 28 in TSR seems to occur while Rand and Mat are in Ruhiean. We never find out how Mat ends up hanging there. Perhaps Slayer was summoned by the finns to take care of the body and thats how Mat ends up hanging there with the spear.

The Eelfinn did it themselves.

 

If I were a betting fellow, I'd put my money on the big thing being previously mentioned in the earlier books as either being Min's viewing of Logain being destined for greatness or the prophecy that stated (paraphrasing here) he who pulled Callandor out from the stone would follow after (which we know now to be Narishma). You guys can check the timing to see if these happened in the right timeframe and tell me if I'm wrong.  Either way, both these guys seem to be destined to play a big role in the coming future.

Problem is, both of those are well known and discussed fairly frequently. This is supposed to be something unnoticed, something BS hasn't seen any discussion of.

 

Ok, I've read about 18 of the 25+ pages so far.

 

I see the best candidates being:

 

1.  T'a'R need by Nynaeve/Elayne

If you've read the first 18 pages, you should have run across the list of stuff from the Theoryland thread that was very kindly summarised for us. Nynaeve and Elayne using need in T'a'r was ruled out on that list.

 

thom learning the names of the sisters who gentled owyn.

 

isn't the ways changing somehow as well?

Both too early - book 1.

 

The big problem with mat's hat is that "it's [the thing] something we should have picked up on when it appeared", according to BS. We did pick up on Mat's hat when it appeared, and we know it's one of his links to Odin, but aside from that, what is there to discuss? It's a hat. Why should we suspect there is anything more to it? I think the hat is just being silly.

 

I will bet that the big thing people largely have been ignoring is the being forcefully turned to the darkone.

Introduced too early, and discussed fairly frequently.

 

Standard apology: I have not read the entire thread, so forgive if this is not new.

As I said earlier, this is nothing personal. *Bangs rubbernilly's head on desk in time with words* Don't! Do! It! Again!

 

What about the Gholam wanting to be free of its master?

Gholam was shot down on the Theoryland list.

 

IIRC, the prophecy says "born of a maiden wed to no man."  I've always had a quibble - Tigraine was still married. Since Rand is older than Elayne, her father was still alive when Rand was born.

Rand is older than Elayne, but about the same as, or perhaps even a little younger than Gawyn. So Morgase and Taringail had tied the knot before Rand was born to Tigraine/Shaiel. So she was wed to no man.

 

I would suggest making a list of all the ones that have been shot down so far, but there wouldn't be much point. After all, look at how many people ignore the summary of the stuff that was ruled out on Theoryland. If we added everything else, it would just lead to frustration as people dived in without any regard for what had been said before.

[MatrixM]

I wasn't sure whether the Luca theory was supposed to be a joke (it did make me laugh), so I just ignored it.

[Quiksilver]

1) Shara

 

2) Swirling colors in ta'verens heads.

 

I'm guessing Shara. All we hear of it are hints and one-liner comments about them. Enough to pique interest, but shockingly little when you add it all up in all books. (probably a paragraph or two in total)

 

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

Jordan said we would never visit Shara or the Isle of Madmen.  I doubt we'll see anything pertaining to either at this late date.

[MatrixM]

I thought that was only said about Seanchan

[lillcheese]

IIRC, the prophecy says "born of a maiden wed to no man."  I've always had a quibble - Tigraine was still married. Since Rand is older than Elayne, her father was still alive when Rand was born.

Rand is older than Elayne, but about the same as, or perhaps even a little younger than Gawyn. So Morgase and Taringail had tied the knot before Rand was born to Tigraine/Shaiel. So she was wed to no man.

 

For the sake of argument, the fact that Taringail married again doesn't nullify his marriage to Tigraine.  It makes Gawyn and Elayne bastards.  Unless the standard in Randland re presumed death after long absence is different from US standards, which I think is 7 years.  

 

My point was that in a technical sense, Rand might not have fulfilled the Dragonmount prophecy.  ETA: Again, not advocating Logain is the real DR.  Rand has fulfilled too many other prophecies for that.

 

I would suggest making a list of all the ones that have been shot down so far, but there wouldn't be much point. After all, look at how many people ignore the summary of the stuff that was ruled out on Theoryland. If we added everything else, it would just lead to frustration as people dived in without any regard for what had been said before.

 

In their slight defense, that list has gotten a bit buried.  Too bad we can't move this discussion to structured where they seem to enforce rules.  Wait, can we? This isn't really a tGS spoiler topic...

[DemandredFO]

Just because we never visit Shara doesn't mean shara doesn't come for a visit.

[clu7ch]

they probably drive cars in Shara.

 

They'll come knocking on Berelain's door humming god save the queen or something.

 

I haven't made my mind up yet but Shara seems possible.

[Mr Ares]

For the sake of argument, the fact that Taringail married again doesn't nullify his marriage to Tigraine. It makes Gawyn and Elayne bastards. Unless the standard in Randland re presumed death after long absence is different from US standards, which I think is 7 years.

The fact he was able to marry again means she was presumed dead, and thus no longer married.

 

My point was that in a technical sense, Rand might not have fulfilled the Dragonmount prophecy.

And, in a technical sense, he must have in order to be the Dragon Reborn. To put another candidate forward doesn't work, so it must be him, therefore it must have been fulfilled.

 

I would suggest making a list of all the ones that have been shot down so far, but there wouldn't be much point. After all, look at how many people ignore the summary of the stuff that was ruled out on Theoryland. If we added everything else, it would just lead to frustration as people dived in without any regard for what had been said before.

In their slight defense, that list has gotten a bit buried. Too bad we can't move this discussion to structured where they seem to enforce rules. Wait, can we? This isn't really a tGS spoiler topic...

The real problem is people not reading the thread. I know it's hard when there's nearly 30 pages to get through, but we see things put forward not long after they were last shot down. People aren't even reading the last few pages, seemingly.

 

Now, as for Shara, "war in Shara" was on the list of ruled out stuff, but there's a reference to Shara in TGH 25 ("...cold blows the wind down Shara Pass"). That might be enough to rule it out completely.