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DRAGONMOUNT

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JenniferL

Rand's Plotline (spoilers for the entire book)

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"Five ride forth, and four return."

 

I never hear anyone talk about this one, but it has always interested me. Not a ton to examine now, but I believe it will be VERY interesting to think about at a certain scene in the LB.

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"Five ride forth, and four return."

 

I never hear anyone talk about this one, but it has always interested me. Not a ton to examine now, but I believe it will be VERY interesting to think about at a certain scene in the LB.

 

Wasn't that prophecy in great hunt? In which case it was fulfilled. 5 rode to Falme, four returned with Ingtar dying.

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Yes, it was fulfilled.  Five went to Falme.  Ingtar died.  Four remained and Rand put forth his banner in fire in the sky or whatever the exact quote is.

 

Definitely not an unfilled Prophecy. :)

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You'd think, after 5 years of channeling (longer than Rand, by any stretch) that Logain would have experienced something similar if it was taint related. But there's been no mention of it in ANY of Logain's POV chapters.
True, but Logain hasn't had any POV chapters.

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Um, can someone update me on Justice? i didn't see any proof in TGS that Rand's sword was Justice...

 

But I'd heard pre-release that the sword was Justice. Was that wrong? I guess it still could be but its not undoubtably true...

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A thought on the use of the TP in sealing the bore...

 

Many have sugested that the TP could be used to seal the DO away.  As I thought about this, it seems that doing so would not be possibel.  The TP is drawn from the DO.  In point of fact, it is drawn through the bore.  In order to use the TP to push the DO back so Saidar and Saidin could then seal the bore, there would still be a stream of TP (perhaps the very essence of the DO) comming out of the bore.  I don't see how this could work.  It seemes that if Rand were drawing the TP out of the bore, that same stream of the TP he would theoretically be using to push the DO back would make it imposesible to seal the Bore.  It would be like trying to shut a door into which someone had stuck their foot.  The bore will need to be sealed in such a way that no part of the DO, or his power is present on the Randland side, otherwise we will be left with another incomplete patch.  Of course it might be possible for Rand to use the TP to push the DO back, then build the patch behind himself, essentially entering the bore.  I find this option unlikely, however.  There is too much indication of some sort of a life for Rand, post-Tarmon Gaidon...

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Um, can someone update me on Justice? i didn't see any proof in TGS that Rand's sword was Justice...

 

But I'd heard pre-release that the sword was Justice. Was that wrong? I guess it still could be but its not undoubtably true...

I think it came from Team Jordan that it was supposed to be Justice.

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Um, can someone update me on Justice? i didn't see any proof in TGS that Rand's sword was Justice... But I'd heard pre-release that the sword was Justice. Was that wrong? I guess it still could be but its not undoubtably true..

 

The sword is a weapon with dragons on the hilt that is linked to Falme and that Rand saw in his own past, not just Lews Therin's.

 

The only such weapon we see other than that blademaster's sword (which had herons, not dragons) that is 'important' in Falme is Hawkwing carrying Justice when he was called by the Horn.

 

And yeah, it was verified by the Jordan folks.

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I would like a discussion of what the significance of Rand destroying the male Chodan Kal on top of dragonmount

 

could mean that he done toying with the idea of having that much power. rather having the temptation there he is doing the right thing and destroying it. i don't think many theories were hurt my not having the Choden Kal to defeat the DO.

 

He is ready to be a free man again. not burdened by the itch to always seize through the Choden Kal.

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I feel he's found he doesn't need trinkets like the Choden Kal his power base has far out weight the use of them.  He's step up a level.  I can see now, where I was blind.

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I have a query not entirely unrelated to the Choedan Kal.

 

As we know, when Semirhage had control of Rand through the Domination Band, Rand was so horrified about killing Min that he snapped mentally and gained access to the True Power.

 

However, what I want to know is how he managed to channel anything with it. Does anyone know of the relation between the OP and the TP? The OP, as we know, is made up of five "elements" - Fire, Earth, Air, Water and Spirit. How does the TP differ from the OP if it can be channeled in the same way? And how would Rand know what weave with it creates balefire?

 

I only ask because BS clearly states that Rand doesn't comprehend this inexplicably powerful source of energy, and yet he understands enough to weave Fire and Air to break the Domination Band... and understands it enough to weave balefire!

 

Does that means that the TP, like the OP, is split into the same five elements, only both genders can tap into it?

 

But that doesn't make any sense, because as we know, when men and women want to achieve an end with the OP, the weaves for whatever they want to do are different (think Traveling). So, if both men and women can channel TP, and if the TP is genderless, does that mean the weave is the same for both men and women? If so, then we return again to the question of how Rand knew what weave made balefire...

 

Apologies for this rambling post. I hope people can make sense enough of it to understand what I'm asking!

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I have a query not entirely unrelated to the Choedan Kal.

 

As we know, when Semirhage had control of Rand through the Domination Band, Rand was so horrified about killing Min that he snapped mentally and gained access to the True Power.

 

However, what I want to know is how he managed to channel anything with it. Does anyone know of the relation between the OP and the TP? The OP, as we know, is made up of five "elements" - Fire, Earth, Air, Water and Spirit. How does the TP differ from the OP if it can be channeled in the same way? And how would Rand know what weave with it creates balefire?

 

I only ask because BS clearly states that Rand doesn't comprehend this inexplicably powerful source of energy, and yet he understands enough to weave Fire and Air to break the Domination Band... and understands it enough to weave balefire!

 

Does that means that the TP, like the OP, is split into the same five elements, only both genders can tap into it?

 

But that doesn't make any sense, because as we know, when men and women want to achieve an end with the OP, the weaves for whatever they want to do are different (think Traveling). So, if both men and women can channel TP, and if the TP is genderless, does that mean the weave is the same for both men and women? If so, then we return again to the question of how Rand knew what weave made balefire...

 

Apologies for this rambling post. I hope people can make sense enough of it to understand what I'm asking!

 

I completely understand. I believe he accessed the True Power through Moridin. As they're slowly "merging" for lack of a better word, I believe mannerisms and abilities cross over unconsciously. So what Rand does by subconsciously, Moridin knows it if that makes sense.

 

Or if the Dark One directly granted Rand access, both the One Power and the True Power must have similar structural foundations. The Five Elements would be the same in the TP as in the OP as would most weaves (Traveling would be entirely different though).

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I have a query not entirely unrelated to the Choedan Kal.

 

As we know, when Semirhage had control of Rand through the Domination Band, Rand was so horrified about killing Min that he snapped mentally and gained access to the True Power.

 

However, what I want to know is how he managed to channel anything with it. Does anyone know of the relation between the OP and the TP? The OP, as we know, is made up of five "elements" - Fire, Earth, Air, Water and Spirit. How does the TP differ from the OP if it can be channeled in the same way? And how would Rand know what weave with it creates balefire?

 

I only ask because BS clearly states that Rand doesn't comprehend this inexplicably powerful source of energy, and yet he understands enough to weave Fire and Air to break the Domination Band... and understands it enough to weave balefire!

 

Does that means that the TP, like the OP, is split into the same five elements, only both genders can tap into it?

 

But that doesn't make any sense, because as we know, when men and women want to achieve an end with the OP, the weaves for whatever they want to do are different (think Traveling). So, if both men and women can channel TP, and if the TP is genderless, does that mean the weave is the same for both men and women? If so, then we return again to the question of how Rand knew what weave made balefire...

 

Apologies for this rambling post. I hope people can make sense enough of it to understand what I'm asking!

 

I completely understand. I believe he accessed the True Power through Moridin. As they're slowly "merging" for lack of a better word, I believe mannerisms and abilities cross over unconsciously. So what Rand does by subconsciously, Moridin knows it if that makes sense.

 

Or if the Dark One directly granted Rand access, both the One Power and the True Power must have similar structural foundations. The Five Elements would be the same in the TP as in the OP as would most weaves (Traveling would be entirely different though).

I'm glad you understood what I was getting at!

 

But I disagree - I still don't think we know enough about about the TP to say for sure whether Rand accessed it through his link with Moridin (although Occam's Razor points to this conclusion) or whether he somehow gained access to it on his own.

 

Why would the weave be different only for Traveling, between the OP and the TP? It doesn't make sense - either there's a difference for every weave, or no difference between the two powers (which again doesn't make sense, given that saidin and saidar are inherently different when channeled, and they come from the same Source!).

 

Your explanation of a subconscious use of the TP would've been what I had concluded, had BS not specifically state that Rand wove Fire and Air with it. This is highly suggestive, then, that the TP is made up of the same five elements, and that Rand wasn't using Moridin's knowledge of it.

 

What, then makes it different from the OP, such that either gender could channel it?

 

There are a few too many inconsistencies here :(.

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A quick change of subject, but something I just recalled (my sister is now reading the book and asked me about it).

 

After Rand choked Min, LTT was reciting Rand's list and added Min's name to it even though she is obviously still alive.  This may be pertinent, does anyone have any theories as to why this happened?  Especially now with the whole LTT being Rand's subconscious (or whatever he was, not a separate person inhabiting Rand's head)

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A quick change of subject, but something I just recalled (my sister is now reading the book and asked me about it).

 

After Rand choked Min, LTT was reciting Rand's list and added Min's name to it even though she is obviously still alive.  This may be pertinent, does anyone have any theories as to why this happened?  Especially now with the whole LTT being Rand's subconscious (or whatever he was, not a separate person inhabiting Rand's head)

Hmmm, my guess is that LTT's voice was Rand's mantle as the Dragon Reborn, which he hadn't accepted until the end of the book. LTT was the part of Rand that could withstand all the torture and abuse that came his way... so, the only thing I can attribute to LTT adding her name to the list was sheer madness.

 

That, or it was a subtle sign of Rand's subconscious which felt that Min was now dead to him because of his actions.

 

Either way, I don't think it has all that much significance, now that Rand has "found himself" so to speak.

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I have a query not entirely unrelated to the Choedan Kal.

 

As we know, when Semirhage had control of Rand through the Domination Band, Rand was so horrified about killing Min that he snapped mentally and gained access to the True Power.

 

However, what I want to know is how he managed to channel anything with it. Does anyone know of the relation between the OP and the TP? The OP, as we know, is made up of five "elements" - Fire, Earth, Air, Water and Spirit. How does the TP differ from the OP if it can be channeled in the same way? And how would Rand know what weave with it creates balefire?

 

I only ask because BS clearly states that Rand doesn't comprehend this inexplicably powerful source of energy, and yet he understands enough to weave Fire and Air to break the Domination Band... and understands it enough to weave balefire!

 

Does that means that the TP, like the OP, is split into the same five elements, only both genders can tap into it?

 

But that doesn't make any sense, because as we know, when men and women want to achieve an end with the OP, the weaves for whatever they want to do are different (think Traveling). So, if both men and women can channel TP, and if the TP is genderless, does that mean the weave is the same for both men and women? If so, then we return again to the question of how Rand knew what weave made balefire...

 

Apologies for this rambling post. I hope people can make sense enough of it to understand what I'm asking!

 

I completely understand. I believe he accessed the True Power through Moridin. As they're slowly "merging" for lack of a better word, I believe mannerisms and abilities cross over unconsciously. So what Rand does by subconsciously, Moridin knows it if that makes sense.

 

Or if the Dark One directly granted Rand access, both the One Power and the True Power must have similar structural foundations. The Five Elements would be the same in the TP as in the OP as would most weaves (Traveling would be entirely different though).

I'm glad you understood what I was getting at!

 

But I disagree - I still don't think we know enough about about the TP to say for sure whether Rand accessed it through his link with Moridin (although Occam's Razor points to this conclusion) or whether he somehow gained access to it on his own.

 

Why would the weave be different only for Traveling, between the OP and the TP? It doesn't make sense - either there's a difference for every weave, or no difference between the two powers (which again doesn't make sense, given that saidin and saidar are inherently different when channeled, and they come from the same Source!).

 

Your explanation of a subconscious use of the TP would've been what I had concluded, had BS not specifically state that Rand wove Fire and Air with it. This is highly suggestive, then, that the TP is made up of the same five elements, and that Rand wasn't using Moridin's knowledge of it.

 

What, then makes it different from the OP, such that either gender could channel it?

 

There are a few too many inconsistencies here :(.

 

It could be possible that since the TP isn't divided into male and female halves, both methods of weaving work. A woman may surrender to the TP. A man may subdue it. A woman may change the feel of a room to travel with TP. A man may bore a hole to travel.

 

 

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I have a query not entirely unrelated to the Choedan Kal.

 

As we know, when Semirhage had control of Rand through the Domination Band, Rand was so horrified about killing Min that he snapped mentally and gained access to the True Power.

 

However, what I want to know is how he managed to channel anything with it. Does anyone know of the relation between the OP and the TP? The OP, as we know, is made up of five "elements" - Fire, Earth, Air, Water and Spirit. How does the TP differ from the OP if it can be channeled in the same way? And how would Rand know what weave with it creates balefire?

 

I only ask because BS clearly states that Rand doesn't comprehend this inexplicably powerful source of energy, and yet he understands enough to weave Fire and Air to break the Domination Band... and understands it enough to weave balefire!

 

Does that means that the TP, like the OP, is split into the same five elements, only both genders can tap into it?

 

But that doesn't make any sense, because as we know, when men and women want to achieve an end with the OP, the weaves for whatever they want to do are different (think Traveling). So, if both men and women can channel TP, and if the TP is genderless, does that mean the weave is the same for both men and women? If so, then we return again to the question of how Rand knew what weave made balefire...

 

Apologies for this rambling post. I hope people can make sense enough of it to understand what I'm asking!

 

I completely understand. I believe he accessed the True Power through Moridin. As they're slowly "merging" for lack of a better word, I believe mannerisms and abilities cross over unconsciously. So what Rand does by subconsciously, Moridin knows it if that makes sense.

 

Or if the Dark One directly granted Rand access, both the One Power and the True Power must have similar structural foundations. The Five Elements would be the same in the TP as in the OP as would most weaves (Traveling would be entirely different though).

I'm glad you understood what I was getting at!

 

But I disagree - I still don't think we know enough about about the TP to say for sure whether Rand accessed it through his link with Moridin (although Occam's Razor points to this conclusion) or whether he somehow gained access to it on his own.

 

Why would the weave be different only for Traveling, between the OP and the TP? It doesn't make sense - either there's a difference for every weave, or no difference between the two powers (which again doesn't make sense, given that saidin and saidar are inherently different when channeled, and they come from the same Source!).

 

Your explanation of a subconscious use of the TP would've been what I had concluded, had BS not specifically state that Rand wove Fire and Air with it. This is highly suggestive, then, that the TP is made up of the same five elements, and that Rand wasn't using Moridin's knowledge of it.

 

What, then makes it different from the OP, such that either gender could channel it?

 

There are a few too many inconsistencies here :(.

 

It could be possible that since the TP isn't divided into male and female halves, both methods of weaving work. A woman may surrender to the TP. A man may subdue it. A woman may change the feel of a room to travel with TP. A man may bore a hole to travel.

 

 

True, this would explain it. I guess different sources of power have different rules. Where I start to get a bit confused is how one source of power can have two different methods of its use. And your explanation still doesn't answer how and why the weaves would work the same way despite being spun differently. That doesn't make much sense, as there are specific mentions of how the Power only has one weave for a function.

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I have a query not entirely unrelated to the Choedan Kal.

 

As we know, when Semirhage had control of Rand through the Domination Band, Rand was so horrified about killing Min that he snapped mentally and gained access to the True Power.

 

However, what I want to know is how he managed to channel anything with it. Does anyone know of the relation between the OP and the TP? The OP, as we know, is made up of five "elements" - Fire, Earth, Air, Water and Spirit. How does the TP differ from the OP if it can be channeled in the same way? And how would Rand know what weave with it creates balefire?

 

I only ask because BS clearly states that Rand doesn't comprehend this inexplicably powerful source of energy, and yet he understands enough to weave Fire and Air to break the Domination Band... and understands it enough to weave balefire!

 

Does that means that the TP, like the OP, is split into the same five elements, only both genders can tap into it?

 

But that doesn't make any sense, because as we know, when men and women want to achieve an end with the OP, the weaves for whatever they want to do are different (think Traveling). So, if both men and women can channel TP, and if the TP is genderless, does that mean the weave is the same for both men and women? If so, then we return again to the question of how Rand knew what weave made balefire...

 

Apologies for this rambling post. I hope people can make sense enough of it to understand what I'm asking!

 

I completely understand. I believe he accessed the True Power through Moridin. As they're slowly "merging" for lack of a better word, I believe mannerisms and abilities cross over unconsciously. So what Rand does by subconsciously, Moridin knows it if that makes sense.

 

Or if the Dark One directly granted Rand access, both the One Power and the True Power must have similar structural foundations. The Five Elements would be the same in the TP as in the OP as would most weaves (Traveling would be entirely different though).

 

The same way wilders learn to do anything with saidar?

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True, this would explain it. I guess different sources of power have different rules. Where I start to get a bit confused is how one source of power can have two different methods of its use. And your explanation still doesn't answer how and why the weaves would work the same way despite being spun differently. That doesn't make much sense, as there are specific mentions of how the Power only has one weave for a function.

 

I am pretty sure they have mentioned different ways to achieve the same thing with the OP.  IIRC Avi has a problem making gateways Egwene's way because she originally did it a different way that she now can't remember.  I think there was even a discussion at one point that once you learn a weave one way trying to do it differently is hard and not as powerful.

 

Having said all that I think the TP weave's are going to be different from both saidin and saidar.  We know from what RJ has said that the TP method of traveling is different from either the saidin or the saidar way, so it seems likely that all the weave's would be different.

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It's called the Second Weave Effect. If you learn something one way, you can't reproduce it another way. This includes things like using gestures in the wave.

 

A second weave will be less successful than the original unless you are specifically forced to break through the original weave. Nynaeve does this when she heals Elayne without herbs in tDR.

 

Some weaves, though they have the same effect, are distinct enough that this does not apply. The new healing method is one of those--Romanda states this.

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i dont think the weaves will be different with the TP, just the way they are used is more destructive and detrimental to the pattern than the OP is.

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My understanding of it is that the One Power is a power of construction while the True Power is a power of destruction. While it makes perfect sense that the OP is divided into elements ( essentially "building blocks" which the pattern is made out of) it doesn't make much sense for the TP to have elements. The TP works by destroying weaves of the pattern.

 

The funny thing is you can achieve many tasks with both the TP and the OP and this makes theoretical sense. Imagine a castle wall, you can take it down by throwing large rocks at it with siege equipment (analogous to using OP; chucking the "building blocks" at it) or you can just remove the individual stone bricks that make the wall up (analogous to TP, directly destroying said "building blocks". Similarly, you can travel via the OP by folding the pattern or boring through it using either half of the OP OR you can just rip a big hole in the pattern to where you want to go using the TP. either works.

 

Going back to the topic of which power is stronger, whether TP can ever be as strong as OP is a moot point. BUT, naturally TP is going to feel more powerful because it is a force of destruction (don't get me wrong though OP can be used destructively as well, but it doesn't intrinsically work by destruction). Much in the same way you would call a bomb powerful but not a construction crew.

 

As for Rand using the TP, well of course it is going to be intuitive if he wants to destroy things. Destruction is the nature of the TP. Simply direct it at whatever you want to destroy and it will do just that.

 

Anyway, my two cents. :)

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It's Rand.  Throughout the books, Rand just Does Stuff.

 

If you need a better explanation, he's got all of the memories of all of his past incarnations to help him.  In some of those incarnations, he did go over to the Dark side, where he presumably received the same instruction in TP use that all of the Forsaken have gotten.

 

Those memories have been there, subconsciously helping him throughout the books.  He just doesn't consciously integrate them until the end of this book.

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If you need a better explanation, he's got all of the memories of all of his past incarnations to help him.  In some of those incarnations, he did go over to the Dark side, where he presumably received the same instruction in TP use that all of the Forsaken have gotten.

 

The Dragon soul never went over to the Shadow. Ishamael claimed this, and RJ's answer was 'And you believed him? He's a lying liar that lies'.

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