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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
JenniferL

Rand's Plotline (spoilers for the entire book)

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No way, man. He was.  Every other time someone uses TP there is the darkness effect. If you'll refer back to like page 2 of book 1 when Elan Morin heals Lews Therin it pretty much describes it the same exact way.

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we know he doesn't use the TP after that first time, because he mentions that hes going to be using the CK instead. Which he does, remember when he walked into the room he was drawing through the CK, and the CK isn't a TP Sa'Angreal.

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ok so i dont believe at all that the TP can be used to patch the hole. If Rand truly was using the TP then that was shown to us for a reason. It wasnt just to kill a forsaken and some BA person. Their will be some important thing that occurs in the LB that has to do with the TP

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It was Rand's taverenness that compelled Tuon...He only tapped into the TP once..He said it was very addicted and it was mentioned clearly that he was using CK to avoid using TP.Both are different addictions and yet same.He chose CK over TP

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Related to Tuon's intimidation:

 

He wasn't using the TP, he was using his Ta'Verenness, the darkness was a side effect off using the TP.

 

and

It was Rand's taverenness that compelled Tuon...He only tapped into the TP once..He said it was very addicted and it was mentioned clearly that he was using CK to avoid using TP.Both are different addictions and yet same.He chose CK over TP

 

 

I agree 100% -- that's how I interpreted it.  My question is whether the dark aura goes away solely because of Rand's re-integration, or whether there are lingering effects due to the TP channeling.

 

I think Rand will die, whether before the Last Battle or during his confrontation with the DO, but his soul will be pulled from his body, and placed into Logain's.

 

I agree mostly, but I think Rand is going to shift into Moridin's body, not Logain's.  The Moridin/Rand bond plus the fact that the bodies are very similar.  I've posted about other reasons that support this.  Basically, Rand is going to die, we know from Min's viewing that only one out of Rand and Moridin will live, so if Rand dies then Moridin lives which is just kind of depressing, so Rand will probably take over Moridin and fulfill the viewing in that manner.

 

I still think Rand will go properly blind and play the part of a beggar for a bit (if his brief walk through Ebou Dar was the fulfillment of that particular Viewing, I have to wonder why it was a Viewing at all), that he will die and his soul will be saved and placed in Logain's body (we know that the DO can do this, so it doesn't seem that big a step to think that the OP can possibly do this as well), probably with the aid of Alivia.  At this point, Rand will be able to see again, and he will weep over the grave of his original body.

 

Again, I think I agree, but think it will be Moridin's body.  Still, I'm starting to think the people that think LTT's dragonmount grave and his background voice-weeping were sufficient to fulfill the prophecy may have a point.  I've become undecided on whether that particular prophecy has been fulfilled... I thought the Fisher having a physical bandage implied a physical blindness, coupled with Rand's weird vision which is probably an effect of Moridin's TP use, but now I'm not sure.

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Again, I think I agree, but think it will be Moridin's body.  Still, I'm starting to think the people that think LTT's dragonmount grave and his background voice-weeping were sufficient to fulfill the prophecy may have a point.  I've become undecided on whether that particular prophecy has been fulfilled... I thought the Fisher having a physical bandage implied a physical blindness, coupled with Rand's weird vision which is probably an effect of Moridin's TP use, but now I'm not sure.

 

True, but the bandage could also represent a sort of veil, which would imply that rand was seeing the world through a filter, if you will. In that sense, the prophecy was fulfilled. In the physical sense, I don't think it was.

 

Perhaps he'll go blind on dragonmount, from the reflection of the sun on the snow (lol). He didn't really think the whole "on top of a mountain, staring at the sun" thing out too well...

 

And, of course, thanks to the immense amount of power he drew, people will know where he is. Who's gonna show up and nab him first?!

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the darking of the room and menace aura are side effects of the original use of the TP, its not him tapping into it every time.

 

Hmmm...  Do you have evidence for this, or are you just speaking your opinion like it's fact?  While I don't fully agree or disagree, I just don't see that we know this for sure.  I think it was meant to be vague.  We just don't know enough about the TP yet, IMO.

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Hmmm...  Do you have evidence for this, or are you just speaking your opinion like it's fact?  While I don't fully agree or disagree, I just don't see that we know this for sure.  I think it was meant to be vague.  We just don't know enough about the TP yet, IMO

 

That was definitely my opinion.  It could also just have been a physical manifestation of the Pattern resisting Rand's actions or something, I just felt the most likely source was his TP-channeling.

 

And, of course, thanks to the immense amount of power he drew, people will know where he is. Who's gonna show up and nab him first?!

 

Anyone in their right mind would stay as far away as possible.  The only people that showed up to nab Rand last time were Forsaken, and only because they were ordered to by Moridin.  There are fewer Forsaken now with no such orders.  They'd have no idea the CK was destroyed and would have to assume they'd be wiped out if they tried to travel there and take on Rand.

 

Actually, if no one is actually monitoring the physical male-CK sa'angreal in Cairhien they won't know Rand destroyed it.  There was that one guy who was trying to sell his brandy that walked by it in Winter's Heart when it was lit up like a christmas tree, but I doubt he's going near it again.

 

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Anyone have any idea if Rand will stop being sick everytime he channels now that LTT is gone? Are they related?

That whole getting sick thing was getting on my nerves. I just want him to be back to the older channeling-all-the-time Rand.

 

Maybe he will use the OP more often now if he still has trouble with saidin?

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Regarding the ghostly funeral procession in Bandar Eban, has anyone considered that this might not be the dead coming back to life but rather a projection from the future?  Namely, Rand's own funeral procession?

 

In the 'Rivers of Shadow' Chapter, the procession is described as "It was a coffin.  Was this a funeral procession from long ago, then", "There was no color to the apparations, just paleness, unlike most of the ghosts that had been appearing lately" and "Rumors in the city said the procession had first appeared the night after Rand arrived in Bandar Eban".

 

This thing just seems tied to Rand somehow more than the random ghosts that are showing up.  I know this is a long-shot.  Whether Rand 'truly' dies or not, we know that he's going to have some type of funeral procession/pyre from multiple viewings/prophecies, so it might be possible.

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I hope Rand's sickness is ended...  But I'm not sure it will be.  As far as I understand, the sickness is related to his link with Moridin and has nothing to do with Lews Therin.

 

However, I theorized earlier in this post (or maybe it was in the Moridin post) that all that OP coursing through Rand's body at the end of TGS may have physically healed him from more than just his "mental instability" in relation to Lews Therin.

 

It was meant to be unexplained as to how much of Lews Therin in Rand's head was a construct by Rand and how much of it was due to the effects of the taint...  But I lean toward Lews Therin's voice as being a construct that was never a real individual that Rand invented to deal with the effects of the taint (ie. breaking down the "barrier" between Rand and his past life/lives and the subsequent memories from Lews Therin).

 

Taint = memories of Lews Therin's life.

Rand's Stress/Coping Mechanism = A fake voice of Lews Therin that Rand thinks (and wants to believe) is real, but isn't.

 

I believe that Rand's "epiphany" at the end of the book only partially "healed" him and that he was also healed by the OP itself.

 

Anyway, this may or may not have healed him of his link to Moridin, but I doubt it at this point.  That will come later, if ever.

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We should try to remember Min's viewing from a crown of swords..."i saw you and another man, and you touched and merged into one another and...one of you dies and one doesn't" so this definitely implies that Rand will die because Moridin has immortality so Rand has to die eventually

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It "definitely implies" a lot of theories that people have.  Nothing is concrete until the end when it has been directly revealed in the books.

 

While I don't mind if Rand does die at the end of the books, I just don't totally believe that RJ will do that.  He's too nice to his main characters for that sort of thing (though I do remember reading that BS said a lot of people - good and bad - will die in ToM).

 

I'm not a fan of the bodyswap theory, but I also don't believe that Rand will die in the end (or if he does, he'll "resurrect" or something).

 

As for Moridin having Immortality, he doesn't have it yet.  None of the Forsaken do.  Not until the DO is free...  And then, even that is suspect.  It seems more likely that immortality is just what the DO promises to get people like the Chosen to do what he wants.  That doesn't mean he will grant it to anybody.

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This is a bit off-topic from the latest discussions, but with the amount of One Power Rand has handled (including CK usage) and with him pretty much being the strongest channeler of all time along with Moridin and Lanfear, doesn't it mean that age will never show on Rand and that he would naturally live the longest life?  RJ said that age for a channeler is slowed in direct proportion to how strong they are, and considering Rand's strength (and things like his CK usage), shouldn't he look like he's in his 20's for his whole life?

 

I know RJ had something like a formula for considering how young the channeler looked in some interview somewhere.

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Good point.  However, do the effects of the taint counteract this?

 

Sure, the taint is gone now, but did Rand's body start to rot at all (on the inside)?

 

Still, assuming Rand does survive the Last Battle, and assuming the One Power sticks around (I'm thinking all "magic" will be gone by the time the next age starts up, but a lot of people disagree with this), and assuming Rand isn't effected physically by the taint that he once channeled, then yes, Rand would live a very long time.  So would Elayne and Aviendha (though not as long as him).  Poor Min.  They'll all be mourning her death early in their lives (she'll be like 80 and they'll still look 25ish).

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Hasn't Rand always become to some degree nauseous when he embraces the OP? Even early on... He's a "wilder" lets remember, and it seems to me that it was, in the beginning, something of a "block". He knew that he HAD to channel, but the internal guilt created the "MyndJack" that turns into getting sicker when he succumbs to using the OP.  The oily whatever he sensed from the taint... Which seems to me to be the DO's True Power residue... made RAND physically ill, That it did not to anyone else could be just his own ultra-sensitivity, like someone's being nauseated by a smell, that offends but does not effect another person so much.

 

PLUS... Rand has sensed TP all along. He saw and cut the umbilical connecting Ishy to the TP, the first time Rand thought he'd killed ol' Ish-ka-bibble in EoTW. Maybe, crossing streams of balefire with Morrie the Mensch, not only created the link between them but also accelerated Rand's ability to touch the TP. Luckily for him in his moment of need. Not so lucky now that he needs to get rid of the ability.

 

My guess is he'll use that ability again (somehow) in dealing with Morrie. With the Pattern's need for balance, it would seem to me The Champion of the Light can't have any random TP ability floatin about his person. THAT part of him needs to DIE so the Champion can LIVE. So, that part of him dies when Moridin is croaked.

 

Creation and Destruction (Light and Dark, Birth and Death, Good and Evil) are what drive time in a Circular Universe. If one is absent... ALL stops, and there is no more. The DO cannot be destroyed, and Rand's universe continue, that is why "he" was sealed away, not "deleted" by The Creator in the first place. Moridin though, Can be eliminated.

 

Some of you seem to take prophecy to literal. Can't do that. Even if prophecy is an eyewitness POV to some happening, time and distance from the event alters it irrevocably. Not that its untrue, just that 3+1 might not equal 4 ... but 6-2.... Same thing only different. Just as AS cannot be taken at face value, neither can The Finns.. What they tell you is A truth, not THE truth. Rand does not have to croak and be sent to valhalla (Rand: "Light, part of me died out there!"  "Homer the Bard 500 years later:" The Dragon Reborn died yet lived).. He can get a pr!cked finger and have his blood spilt.

 

All of this it seems to me has been hashed and re-hashed repeatedly, so what I''m presenting is nothing new. But perusing these threads I perceive many instances of people forgetting or not realizing the frame of reference in the WoT universe. Readers cannot think in Linear Time, when approaching this story. It only leads to confusion.

 

OH btw.. Min is under the effects of the Bond. That's gonna prolong her health for some time, even with it being some different, I'd suspect there'll be some advantage for her.

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Hasn't Rand always become to some degree nauseous when he embraces the OP? Even early on... He's a "wilder" lets remember, and it seems to me that it was, in the beginning, something of a "block". He knew that he HAD to channel, but the internal guilt created the "MyndJack" that turns into getting sicker when he succumbs to using the OP.  The oily whatever he sensed from the taint... Which seems to me to be the DO's True Power residue... made RAND physically ill, That it did not to anyone else could be just his own ultra-sensitivity, like someone's being nauseated by a smell, that offends but does not effect another person so much.

 

I disagree that this was a block and I disagree that he had this problem "all along."  Yes, the taint made him want to spew out everything he ever ate, but he didn't actually get dizzy and throw up when he embraced the source until after he and Moridin crossed balefires in CoS.

 

PLUS... Rand has sensed TP all along. He saw and cut the umbilical connecting Ishy to the TP, the first time Rand thought he'd killed ol' Ish-ka-bibble in EoTW. Maybe, crossing streams of balefire with Morrie the Mensch, not only created the link between them but also accelerated Rand's ability to touch the TP. Luckily for him in his moment of need. Not so lucky now that he needs to get rid of the ability.

 

I disagree with this too (sorry).  Just because he saw the black chords doesn't mean that he "sensed the TP all along."  Also, we don't know for sure that the black chord that was coming from Ishy in the EotW was the TP, do we?

 

Could it be possible that every channeler can have access to the TP if the DO lets them?  I think yes.  I think this is what happened.  It was clearly a foreign and "new" power that he sensed when touched the TP after being collared by Semi.  It was not familiar to him, was it?  I don't have my book with me, but I'm pretty sure it was something he had never sensed before.  I'll reread it tonight.

 

OH btw.. Min is under the effects of the Bond. That's gonna prolong her health for some time, even with it being some different, I'd suspect there'll be some advantage for her.

 

Good point.  I agree with this one.  I don't think she'll live as long as the others, but she will live longer than a normal person would because of the bond she shares with Rand.  Thanks for reminding me of this.

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This is a bit off-topic from the latest discussions, but with the amount of One Power Rand has handled (including CK usage) and with him pretty much being the strongest channeler of all time along with Moridin and Lanfear, doesn't it mean that age will never show on Rand and that he would naturally live the longest life?  RJ said that age for a channeler is slowed in direct proportion to how strong they are, and considering Rand's strength (and things like his CK usage), shouldn't he look like he's in his 20's for his whole life?

 

RJ also said in his blog that men and women slow differently.  Essentially, a man would slow when reaching his early 30s, a woman would slow when reaching late teens or early 20s.  So yeah, Rand would live a helluva long time, 600 or 700 hundred years maybe (assuming his taint exposure doesn't affect this), but he wouldn't be in his 20s for most of that time.

 

I was never sure whether the fact that male channelers start the slowing-process later in life meant a female channeler had the potential to live longer than a comparable male channeler.  This might cancel out based on Asmodean's description of how male channelers are in general stronger than female channelers.  In other words, men age even slower then women once they start slowing, but women get to enjoy more years of youth, with things evening out in the end.  Makes sense from a biological clock sense anyway, and RJ's different but equal philosophy (note: I didn't say 'separate' but equal).

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This makes me wonder:  How old was Lews Therin before he bit the dust?  I imagine to become as prominent as he did during the Age of Legends (including gaining a third name) that he would've been several hundred years old by the time he became Tamyrlin and was able to summon the nine Rods of Dominion.

 

Interesting.  That gives Rand that much more ammo for the Last Battle.  Potentially hundreds of years of wisdom and experience from a man who channeled during the Age of Legends.  Cool.

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Will he have direct knowledge from the AOL? like will he be able to separate from his old memories and go through that knowledge at will. or was the viewing of the two people became one means that he has both memories with Rand being dominate but in his mind it is indistinguishable (that word looks funky).

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Will he have direct knowledge from the AOL? like will he be able to separate from his old memories and go through that knowledge at will. or was the viewing of the two people became one means that he has both memories with Rand being dominate but in his mind it is indistinguishable (that word looks funky).

 

When Moridin and Rand meet in TAR, there's no real conflict between LTT's memories and Rand's personality.  Rand is Rand, and yet he refers to Moridin as Elan, and even remembers when Ishamael 'healed' LTT in the prologue of tEotW.  I think it will be kind of like Mat's memories.  They will be there for him to use.  Granted, I don't know if this means Rand gets ALL of LTT's memory.  Rand doesn't seem to remember the actual raid on Shayol Ghul, for instance, although the LTT personality did seem to understand why the 7-seals didn't work, i.e., that saidin can't be in direct contact with the DO without risking contamination.

 

Personally, I think LTT's memories were partitioned from Rand's personality and only 'seeped' in occasionally, or when LTT's 'personality' took control or talked to Rand's personality.  If Rand/LTT achieved a true integration, this means one personality with combined access to both sets of memories.  Thus, I'd expect Rand to have most of LTT's memories, they'll probably become available as needed more than Rand will just sit around and be ruminating about how he didn't like his birthday present when LTT turned 165.

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