Rand's Plotline (spoilers for the entire book)

[stormcrow]

^ I can't be sure but wasn't that the part of the Seanchan prophesy which Ishamael corrupted? He added parts to it to sow confusion or something.

 

Mat is emperor now that Fortuona is empress.

 

[Aleron688]

^ I can't be sure but wasn't that the part of the Seanchan prophesy which Ishamael corrupted? He added parts to it to sow confusion or something.

 

Mat is emperor now that Fortuona is empress.

 

 

I dont think mat is emperor.  Or maybe he is, but he is somewhat like the Queen Consort.... he gets the title, but it doesn't give him much power

[benr]

Was LTT "anyone" re-born?  Did he have a voice (voices) in his head?

[Aleron688]

Was LTT "anyone" re-born?  Did he have a voice (voices) in his head?

 

yes, he was the dragon from ages past.  but he did not remember those past lives and did not have voices in his head

[benr]

Were there legends that the Dragon would be reborn during LTT's time, or was it too "advanced" of a society for those to have survived?  Did LTT know he was the Dragon Reborn?  Seems to be a big advantage for Rand (or disadvantege, at times).

[Worm]

Were there legends that the Dragon would be reborn during LTT's time, or was it too "advanced" of a society for those to have survived?  Did LTT know he was the Dragon Reborn?  Seems to be a big advantage for Rand (or disadvantege, at times).

 

We haven't been told but I don't think he knew. He was reffered to as the Dragon not the Dragon Reborn. If he did know he probably kept quiet about it.

[analyticalkeys]

Were there legends that the Dragon would be reborn during LTT's time, or was it too "advanced" of a society for those to have survived?  Did LTT know he was the Dragon Reborn?  Seems to be a big advantage for Rand (or disadvantege, at times).

 

We haven't been told but I don't think he knew. He was reffered to as the Dragon not the Dragon Reborn. If he did know he probably kept quiet about it.

 

We've been told in the companion book. LTT was named the Dragon because of his ferociousness in fighting the forces of the Dark. LTT just happened to be the leader of all Aes Sedai so he was the one who commanded them into battle.

[Aleron688]

Were there legends that the Dragon would be reborn during LTT's time, or was it too "advanced" of a society for those to have survived?  Did LTT know he was the Dragon Reborn?  Seems to be a big advantage for Rand (or disadvantege, at times).

 

We haven't been told but I don't think he knew. He was reffered to as the Dragon not the Dragon Reborn. If he did know he probably kept quiet about it.

 

We've been told in the companion book. LTT was named the Dragon because of his ferociousness in fighting the forces of the Dark. LTT just happened to be the leader of all Aes Sedai so he was the one who commanded them into battle.

 

I don't know if you noticed this... but that's not what they are talking about at all :P

 

they are talking about the dragon (whatever his name is at the time) being reborn again and again.... NOT about the dragon being a name given to him because he was the leader

 

he probably knew that he was a reincarnation of past lives during the AoL, but if not, then he DEFINITELY knew when ishy told him during tEotW prologue

[stormcrow]

There was no Dragon to be Reborn in LTT time. Even though he was the Dragon, prophesies didn't know of any confrontation between man and the DO. At the turning of the wheel, eventually people forget that a DO even exists. LTT in the second Age was the Dragon full stop. Rand is the rebirth of this Dragon, but there have been Dragons and Dragons Reborn in infinite turnings of the Wheel. That is the significance of what Rand learned in Veins of Gold.

 

I assume that the Dragon is not reborn in the fourth-seventh Ages in the cycle.

[cuiv]

There was no Dragon to be Reborn in LTT time. Even though he was the Dragon, prophesies didn't know of any confrontation between man and the DO. At the turning of the wheel, eventually people forget that a DO even exists. LTT in the second Age was the Dragon full stop. Rand is the rebirth of this Dragon, but there have been Dragons and Dragons Reborn in infinite turnings of the Wheel. That is the significance of what Rand learned in Veins of Gold.

 

I assume that the Dragon is not reborn in the fourth-seventh Ages in the cycle.

 

Or else the destruction between the first and second ages (or between the seventh and first ages) is so complete that everyone forgets about the Dragon.

[kevin-nivek]

the people of the AoL didn't know that the battle against the dark one was eternal, they didn't believe the stories about the horn of valere, so i doubt there was any belief that lews therin was the reincarnation of the lights champion born to defeat the dark one again and again.

Such things only became common knowledge with lews therins failure and the prophecies being foretold.

[garion]

Anyone think that the Light's champion is just given the name Dragon in the 2nd and 3rd Ages but has different name(s) in the others.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Certainly possible, but I doubt it.

 

The Wheel has something like 100 Heroes to choose from to spin out as its Champion for any given crisis.  I think it's naive to think that it will always choose the Dragon.  Not every crisis threatens all of existence like this one does.  The Dragon is the Wheel's BFG and you don't use a BFG to kill flies.

[Moghedian]

BFG?

Big Friendly Giant? ;)

[karehiro]

What's intriguing is that Artur Hawkwing said that he fought on Rand's side countless times, as well as against Rand (against the Dragon).  So that means either the Dragon is reborn on other Ages (perhaps doing other great things besides fighting the DO, like for example creating an empire), or that the Heroes of the Horn fought against the Dragon instead of with him in certain turnings of the Wheel.  It could mean that the Dark One's forces got ahold of the Horn, or it could mean that Hawkwing is referencing the times when the Light's champion was fighting for the Shadow, and everyone had to fight against him.

[TheBeggar]

I think the term Dragon reborn doesn't mean they were all called Dragons. I just take the term to mean that the last version of Rand's soul was the Dragon. I don't think the heroes of the horn are always spun out with the same name just as Rand and LTT have different names. "Dragon" seems to only have significance in terms of prophecy and rememberance of what LTT did.

[maradon]

What's intriguing is that Artur Hawkwing said that he fought on Rand's side countless times, as well as against Rand (against the Dragon).  So that means either the Dragon is reborn on other Ages (perhaps doing other great things besides fighting the DO, like for example creating an empire), or that the Heroes of the Horn fought against the Dragon instead of with him in certain turnings of the Wheel.  It could mean that the Dark One's forces got ahold of the Horn, or it could mean that Hawkwing is referencing the times when the Light's champion was fighting for the Shadow, and everyone had to fight against him.

 

This is an interesting point. The fact that Harwkwing also refered to Rand as Lews Therin means that Rand is the only Reincarnation of the Dragon since LTT (they call each other by their most recent reincarnation if im not mistaken). So does this mean that the Lights Champion is only reborn for when the Last battle is approaching and when the bore is about to be produced?

 

If the Dragon is only reincarnated for these two moments in time then this implies that, if they were to have fought against each other, either the Horn of Valere or the Lights Champion was on the Shadows side and that Hawkwing and Rand have never fought in just ordinary battle (no shadowspawn involved).

 

Prophecy says that the Dragon needs to be at the Last Battle for the light to have any chance of victory. However I have not heard anything saying that he has to be fighting for the light.

 

The Horn of Valere needs the banner of the dragon to be used. However does this mean that the banner of the Dragon was made in the AoL when the HoV was made as a fail safe? or does it mean that someone produced it as a fail safe after the horn fell into the Shadows hands?

 

Ishy also says in the first book that Rand has fought for the Shadow before, but if he had done this then wouldn't the DO control his soul? or would this be severed everytime the DO gets resealed?

 

All in all I would say that it is more likely that in ages past the HoV has fought for the shadow not the Lights Champion, as the shadow has been unable to gain victory. However it is all theoretical and consequently you will need to make your own descision as to which object has fallen into the shadows control The Lights Champion or The HoV.

[Bob T Dwarf]

The Dragon soul like all of the Hero souls is both special and ordinary.

 

Ordinary in that they get spun out just like all other souls.  Not always as Heroes, but also as more ordinary people.  During any or those "ordinary" incarnations, the Dragon and Hawkwing could well have fought as allies or as adversaries.

 

Special in that when the Wheel needs a living hero, it is one or more of them who get spun out.

 

I don't subscribe to the theory that the Heroes refer to each other by the name they carried in their last incarnation.  I believe they each have one predominant Hero personality and that is the name they use and the form they take while waiting in T'a'R.  While waiting in T'a'R, the Dragon would always appear to be LTT, Hawkwing always Hawkwing, Birgitte always Birgitte Silverbow, etc.

 

Birgitte was somebody called Teadra when she defeated Moghedien during the War of Power.  I believe that is the last confirmed identity we have for her before Falme.  Yet in T'a'R, she is Birgitte.

[Aleron688]

I think you're wrong about several things.  The dragon is ONLY reborn for these specific purposes (fighting the DO)

 

When Hawkwing and the rest are reborn is another matter.  They appear randomly throughout history.  In fact, after the WoP, we know brigitte was reborn, because she says she still has memories from after the breaking, but is forgetting the rest. 

 

The Dragon's soul is special in that it is the only one reborn for specific purposes, at specific times, again and again.

[Sentinel78]

RJ has said explicitly that Rand can be reborn without the need to fight the Dark One, such as in Ages where the Dark One has not been discovered.  He's not a one-trick pony. 

 

Artur Hawkwing would not fight against the Dragon in a Dragon vs. Dark One rebirth.

 

I just went through all the old RJ interviews on this, I can try to find the specific quote if you want.

[Aleron688]

RJ has said explicitly that Rand can be reborn without the need to fight the Dark One, such as in Ages where the Dark One has not been discovered.  He's not a one-trick pony. 

 

Artur Hawkwing would not fight against the Dragon in a Dragon vs. Dark One rebirth.

 

I just went through all the old RJ interviews on this, I can try to find the specific quote if you want.

 

please do.  i'd like to see where it says the dragon isn't only reborn to fight the DO... or at least at the turning of an age.  If i'm wrong on this... i've gotta change my outlook on a few things... :(

[Bob T Dwarf]

I think you're wrong about several things.  The dragon is ONLY reborn for these specific purposes (fighting the DO)

 

When Hawkwing and the rest are reborn is another matter.  They appear randomly throughout history.  In fact, after the WoP, we know brigitte was reborn, because she says she still has memories from after the breaking, but is forgetting the rest.  

 

The Dragon's soul is special in that it is the only one reborn for specific purposes, at specific times, again and again.

 

The Path of Daggers book tour 22 October 1998, Los Angeles - Pam Basham reporting

 

Q: "Is [the Dragon] soul born in any other Age, or only at the advent and (theoretically, of course) the closing of the Third Age, as the Dragon/the Dragon Reborn?"

RJ: This soul is one of the Heroes, and bound to the Wheel, spun out as the Pattern wills.  "It" is born in other Ages, but in a non-Dragon incarnation, to suit the pattern of that Age.  In the course of this answer, he related this to why Hawkwing calls Rand "Lews Therin" at Falme--because Hawkwing recognizes this soul.  This didn't really tell me why he specifically calls him "Lews Therin", but apparently they've been hangin' together in Tel'aran'rhiod and the etiquette there is to call each other by the name of your last incarnation.  (My interpretation.)

[Aleron688]

hot damn!

 

I'm reevaluating.

 

Dragon is born at those specific times again and again... as well as whenever else the Pattern wants him to be part of the world

 

*profanities and expletive deleted*

[ShenAnCalhar]

If the Dragon has in fact fought for the Shadow in the past (as Ishamael has stated), would the Dark One not have already destroyed the Wheel and remade the world in his image?

 

Is it possible the Dragon isn't as important as everyone thinks in the end result?  Or perhaps Ishamael is simply lying?

[smileyman]

If the Dragon has in fact fought for the Shadow in the past (as Ishamael has stated), would the Dark One not have already destroyed the Wheel and remade the world in his image?

 

Is it possible the Dragon isn't as important as everyone thinks in the end result?  Or perhaps Ishamael is simply lying?

 

Ishamael is lying. The Dragon has never fought for the Shadow. When Rand relived all his past lives he never once turned to the Shadow. Many times (most) he was defeated and killed, but he never once was turned.