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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
JenniferL

Rand's Plotline (spoilers for the entire book)

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Im just so glad Rand finally made a break through. I was wondering how far RJ and BS were gonna make this poor guy fall before he hit bottom. After trying to kill Tam, I thought it would have been better if he just gives up and lets the Dark One rule. I wish I could have smacked him when he was so mean to Hurin. >:( that man owes out a whole lot of apologies.

 

I love that the whole Rand is blind thing was just a reference to him being emotionally cut off. Not actually blind, poor guy has enough ailments he didn't need another one. I hope he is fully fixed now and puts away that "I am steel" garbage.

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So, Rand (probably) isn't Mr. CrazyPants anymore.  But, he's still linked to Moridin and he's still channeled the TP.  Is he still going to have the "I'm evil, BEWARE" aura around him? 

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Alright, moving on.

 

Rand and Moridin, mirroring each other, Spooky, right?

 

I hate to say it, but as long as it doesn't have its own thread, the Graendal argument will never stop lol. :P

 

But as to what you said, I think Rand sort of broke that connection at the end (at least found a way to hide it.) I also think that Moridin will be converted to the light at the end of the series.

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I hate to say it, but as long as it doesn't have its own thread, the Graendal argument will never stop lol. :P

 

But as to what you said, I think Rand sort of broke that connection at the end (at least found a way to hide it.) I also think that Moridin will be converted to the light at the end of the series.

 

Agreed on the first, but given the love for convoluted conspiracy theories around here, I wouln't bet on it even then.

 

Dunno whether I'me with ya on the second or not.  It may be just a bit too Pollyanna.  Nice idea, though.

 

Other than the Pollyanna factor, I don't think it works for Moridin to convert. 

 

He and Rand have been battling each other since forever.  If Moridin converts at the last, then would the wheel be able to spin him out again in the future to be the DO's champion?  I kinda don't think so. It would only work if the Pattern can accept that kind of large change.

 

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I hate to say it, but as long as it doesn't have its own thread, the Graendal argument will never stop lol. :P

 

But as to what you said, I think Rand sort of broke that connection at the end (at least found a way to hide it.) I also think that Moridin will be converted to the light at the end of the series.

 

Agreed on the first, but given the love for convoluted conspiracy theories around here, I wouln't bet on it even then.

 

Dunno whether I'me with ya on the second or not.  It may be just a bit too Pollyanna.  Nice idea, though.

 

Me saying that he will be converted really doesn't have much merit, I don't have much evidence or anything, just a feeling and something I think would be cool. The first idea however, I really do believe is correct.

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name the thread "The Palace Event" and im pretty sure most people who are involved will know, while being very uninformational to those who just happen to see the thread title.

 

or, on a more humorous note: "the punch in the face" works too ;p

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if we're going to have a forsaken thread then i will wait for that to respond

 

i really loved the veins of gold chapter and i felt it echoed in some important ways the internal dialogue rand had when he first started to face that he could channel @ the eye.  it was after that the spring finally came and that was the last time that natural world seemed healthy and in balance.  

 

i think we'll see crops finally starting to sprout in the next book(s)

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Cadsuane suggested not using Balefire, but who doesn't listen?  ;)

 

Yes, but Rand's an idiot to of used the most powerful sa'angreal ever created to make a HUGE Balefire of the One Power to kill Graendal at that fortress in Arad Doman. Why?  Asmodean lives again. How is that? Because Graendal killed Asmodean in Caemlyn, and since Graendal never "existed", Asmodean never was killed by Graendal.

 

So does Elza balefire death by use of the True Power from Rand via Moridin, mean that Osan'gar never died as well? Elza was the one directing the flows of One Power to kill Osan'gar during the Cleasing of the Taint.

 

Rand kills two female Chosen (Semirhage, Graendal) and one Black Ajah (Elza), then two more Chosen never really died in the past before: Osan'gar, Asmodean?

 

 

We don't know how long into the past Rand's balefire extends.  In Graendal's case, say maybe a week.  Since she didn't kill Asmo in the first place, how much time gets erased for her is immaterial.

 

Elza and Semirhage were killed only with the amount of TP that Rand could channel unaided.  Maybe an hour, maybe less erased there.  Aginor died months ago.

 

So, Asmo is still dead and so is Aginor. ( unless the DO is giving him a 3rd chance at life )

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The boards kept choking, so I wasn't able to split them all into a new thread. So if you post about Graendal here, I will helpfully delete it for you.

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Brought this up in the other thread but re: the pointlessness of destroying the Choedan Kal since it would be a waste of power:

 

Rand closed his eyes as he knelt above Min, then he channeled the strange, unknown force.  Energy and life surged through him, a torrent of power like saidin, only ten times as sweet and a hundred times as violent.  It made him alive, made him realize that he'd never been alive before.  It gave him such strength as he'd never imagined.  It rivaled, even, the power he'd held when drawing from the Choedan Kal.

 

Rand now effectively has the power of a demigod, unaided.  He can singlehandedly take on the White Tower, Black Tower, wipe out the Blight, or destroy the Pattern if he so wished.  A few people said this passage referenced only the extreme "addictive" trait in terms of its superiority over the One Power, but in the above both the addictive and strength qualities are clearly delineated.  There's a clear comparison in strength between saidin and the True Power.  Rand is as powerful with the True Power as he is using the Choedan Kal with the One Power, full-stop.

 

The implications of this could be potentially staggering.  People believed previously that he'd only seal the Dark One while facing his champion (Nae'blis).  This implies that he can actually compete against the Dark One himself in an actual contest.  Of course the problem is that the Dark One is the one who supposedly grants the True Power and could revoke it at will, hence it would be useless against him.  However, I'll bet anything that Rand didn't get access to this power for a one-time usage against Semirhage and that he's meant to use it again in order to win.

 

It also creates problems as to why Ishmael had ever lost to Lews Therin in the past, or why Moridin was apprehensive about facing a "true circle" of Wise Ones, if he could hold the same amount of power as Rand.  If he had access to the same amount of power, there would have never been a chance of him getting defeated by the likes of them.  That needs to be explained.

 

I brought this up in the other thread as well, but I absolutely loved the Nynaeve/Rand interplay and interactions this book.  It was nice seeing a female character actually think like a general/warrior and see the merits from Rand's perspective rather than the reflexive reactions of "woolhead".  Nynaeve has seriously grown over the course of the series and she's among my top favorite characters.

 

And anyone else thinking Nynaeve is probably being groomed as the next greatest female channeler of the 3rd Age?  In fact it seems as if she's being trained by Rand in a way (as he is the greatest channeler next to Moridin and Lanfear), because she was the only one to be linked to the Dragon Reborn, the only female to use the Choedan Kal and help in cleansing saidin, learned from Rand how to identify and unravel Compulsion from the greatest Compulsion user in the series, and even learned Rand's gateway trick this book.  She's learning more from Rand than she did in the White Tower!  And of course this is not counting her being the only character besides Rand and Moiraine to beat a Forsaken, or being arguably the greatest healer of the Third Age and finding a way to heal severing.  She'll likely be known as the strongest Aes Sedai when it's all said and done, since her potential should have been forced more to the forefront by the Choedan Kal.

 

Back to Rand to finish my post:  Does anyone else remember what Lanfear/Selene was saying about there being a level beyond the Void?

 

It would seem that Dark Rand achieved that level in order to get access to the True Power:

 

Rand wailed.  THIS CAN'T BE HAPPENING!  I WILL NOT DO THIS AGAIN!

Something snapped inside of him.  He grew cold; then that coldness vanished, and he could feel nothing.  No emotion.  No anger.

At that moment he grew aware of a strange force.  It was like a resevoir of water, boiling and churning just beyond his view.  He reached toward it with his mind.

A clouded face flashed before Rand's own, one whose features he couldn't quite make out.  It was gone in a moment.

And Rand found himself filled with an alien power.  Not saidin, not saidar, but something else.  Something he'd never felt before.

 

I'm looking forward to seeing the new Rand after Veins of Gold.  He definitely needs to apologize to Tam, Nynaeve and Min, and I look forward to how Rand with his new attitude deals with Tuon, Cadsuane, and his followers.

 

PS- Yes, Graendal is dead.

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the fact that moridin WAS wary about facing a circle of wise women, and that he hasnt just unraveled the patter, and the fact he has lost to Rand in their previous fights, points to the fact that the True Power, unaided, is NOT as strong as saidin throuigh the CK imo.

 

Rand is already in crazypants, and on the Cusp of entering Darth Rand mode when he tapped an extremely addictive power source. he was delusional from the High of it imo, and was NOT in fact demi-godlike in power.

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Rands plotline was my favourite, and I've never enjoyed his viewpoint as much as Mat and Perrins in the previous books.

 

Now if the true power is a gift from the Dark one, I'd imagine it would corrupt all that touch it.  To me it smells like a DO plot to twist Rand.  A sort of temptation, going to be hard to resist all that power.

 

Be interested to see how he now reacts to the Aes Sedai and the Seanchan, I have a few theories. Also with callandor needing to 2 Female channellers to use, makes rescuing Moriane seem like a really important step.

 

 

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The boards kept choking, so I wasn't able to split them all into a new thread. So if you post about Graendal here, I will helpfully delete it for you.

 

Why? Rand did supposedly kill Graendal, in tGS and this is the spoiler forum right? Where else is the best place for it?

 

I dislike my thread being deleted, if it happens in the future and I followed the Moderators policies why am I even willing to take my time in having a discussion here?

 

Rand pov's did show Graendal's fortress being balefired, that's a fact.

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The boards kept choking, so I wasn't able to split them all into a new thread. So if you post about Graendal here, I will helpfully delete it for you.

 

Why? Rand did supposedly kill Graendal, in tGS and this is the spoiler forum right? Where else is the best place for it?

 

I dislike my thread being deleted, if it happens in the future and I followed the Moderators policies why am I even willing to take my time in having a discussion here?

 

Rand pov's did show Graendal's fortress being balefired, that's a fact.

 

Well, maybe discussing it on a thread that's about Rand, not Graendel, is the problem. 

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the fact that moridin WAS wary about facing a circle of wise women, and that he hasnt just unraveled the patter, and the fact he has lost to Rand in their previous fights, points to the fact that the True Power, unaided, is NOT as strong as saidin throuigh the CK imo.

 

Rand is already in crazypants, and on the Cusp of entering Darth Rand mode when he tapped an extremely addictive power source. he was delusional from the High of it imo, and was NOT in fact demi-godlike in power.

 

Except for the fact that it specifically states Rand is as strong with the True Power as he is with the Choedan Kal.  It's even confirmed later on:

 

Rand carried the access key with him for a reason.  It linked him to one of the greatest sa'angreal ever created.  With that power and the aid of Nynaeve, Rand had cleansed saidin.  The access key had allowed him to tap an unimaginable river, a tempest as vast as the ocean.  It had been the greatest thing he had ever experienced.

Until the moment when he had used the unnamed power.

That other force called to him, sang to him, tempted him.  So much power, so much divine wonder.  But it terrified him.  He didn't dare touch it, not again.

And so he carried the key.  He was not certain which of the two sources of energy was more dangerous, but as long as both called to him, he was able to resist both.  Like two people, both yelling for his attention, they drowned one another out.  For the moment.

 

In this passage they not only referenced the addictive quality as you're arguing for, but also the amount of power just like the previous passage.  Both qualities are clearly delineated; they aren't conflated together.

 

So yes, Rand does have the power of a demigod with the True Power.

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Rand story was perfect in every way. I think there's no question that he hit absolute bottom. So often characters hit 'rock bottom' but they rarely reach the depths of nearly being forced to kill a loved one.

 

Then he sinks even deeper by BFing Graendal's little fortress with hundreds of innocent people inside. It's true that they were pawns of Graendal but Rand burned their threads from the pattern for all time! They don't get the chance to live again. Their souls are forever lost. That's horribly tragic.

 

Then he nearly kills his own Father. A man who raised and loved him from the day of his birth. A man who never mistreated him and taught him everything he needed to know to be a man both wise and true.

 

His reconciliation with LTT on the slopes of Dragonmount was the most moving scene in the entire WoT.

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I feel that a "True circle" is a circle made up of Female and Male channelers.

 

And with that being said I think it is obvious why he would be afraid.

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I hope Rand keeps cadsuane exiled.

 

I agree. She was deservedly banished. When you are given a duty of that importance (protecting the collar) and fail at it...

 

Simply put, Rand was too lenient with Cadsuane. In a time of war a court martial would have ordered her executed for gross dereliction of duty.

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It also creates problems as to why Ishmael had ever lost to Lews Therin in the past, or why Moridin was apprehensive about facing a "true circle" of Wise Ones, if he could hold the same amount of power as Rand.  If he had access to the same amount of power, there would have never been a chance of him getting defeated by the likes of them.  That needs to be explained.

 

 

 

While I am not convinced that TP is so ¨berpowerful in terms of raw strength, I will pretend I do to come up with one possibility here. Since access to TP is granted directly by the DO, it should be possible for him to also control how much of TP someone is allowed to use. If Ishy can not hold his own against some 3rd Agers, untrained children in the eyes of not only the forsaken, but also in the eyes of the DO, maybe Ishy deserves what he gets.

 

Rand on the other hand...It seemed very much like a deliberate atempt to lure him to the dark side. Grant him access to as much TP as he can possibly handle, show him the power that can be his, if he just takes a different path.

 

ompare it to wine, if you will (hehe, I just ad to do this ;D). If you want to convince someone who has never tased wine that this is the best beverage in the world, you chose the most awesome wine you can find.

A wino on the other hand, as long as the colour is roughly right, and there is alcohol in it, he is happy as they come.

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