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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Rand's Plotline (spoilers for the entire book)


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No, it's not just the DO. Balefire burns your threads from the Pattern... it's like you never existed at all.

 

Can you support this somehow? Even if you're burned out of the Pattern, the Creator could put you right back in it.  Nothing I know of suggests that the Creator is limited in the same manner as the DO on this point.

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No, it's not just the DO. Balefire burns your threads from the Pattern... it's like you never existed at all.

 

Can you support this somehow? Even if you're burned out of the Pattern, the Creator could put you right back in it.  Nothing I know of suggests that the Creator is limited in the same manner as the DO on this point.

I believe RJ or BS has stated that if you are Balfired you can still be reborn, so no its not like you never existed at all.

 

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No, it's not just the DO. Balefire burns your threads from the Pattern... it's like you never existed at all.

 

Can you support this somehow? Even if you're burned out of the Pattern, the Creator could put you right back in it.  Nothing I know of suggests that the Creator is limited in the same manner as the DO on this point.

I believe RJ or BS has stated that if you are Balfired you can still be reborn, so no its not like you never existed at all.

 

 

I did not see that, but if that's the case.. then how is dying by balefire any different than a normal death? Everything you did in that short time period is erased... and that's it? It's been constantly stated that your threads are burned out of the Pattern; maybe I made a mistake in thinking this then, but I assumed the Pattern could only write you back into it if your threads still existed within it.

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I did not see that, but if that's the case.. then how is dying by balefire any different than a normal death? Everything you did in that short time period is erased... and that's it? It's been constantly stated that your threads are burned out of the Pattern; maybe I made a mistake in thinking this then, but I assumed the Pattern could only write you back into it if your threads still existed within it.

 

Balefire only removes the last bits of your thread from the pattern the rest is left.

 

Here is how RJ explains why the DO can't get BF'd souls.

Week 3 Question: There are many theories that attempt to create a connection of time duration to the transmigration of the dead Forsaken. Are there time and/or power constraints on the Dark One's ability to transmigrate souls?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: There are definitely time constraints on the Dark One's power to transmigrate a soul. The soul doesn't have to be secured immediately - that is, the Dark One doesn't have to be ready to snatch the soul at the instant of death - but the longer that passes after the death, the less chance that the Dark One will be able to secure the soul. Someone who has been killed with balefire in actuality died before the apparent time of his or her death, and thus the window of opportunity for the Dark One to secure that soul for transmigration is gone before the Dark One can know that the soul must be secured unless the amount of balefire used is very small. Remember that the more balefire is used, the further back the target's thread is burned out of the pattern.

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I especially liked how LTT sounded totally sane at the end of Veins of Gold. It was the kind of scene that made me stop and think 'Wait, a minute...he's sane now?' and then he vanishes. I dunno about you guys, but I'll actually miss LTT's character, partially for his insanity but also cos there'll be fewer AOL infodumps, which I liked.

 

What do you guys think will happen to Rand's memories now? The consensus seems to be that he'll remember some of the AOL but not all of it. Will he be able to bring up AOL memories at will?

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To those referencing Rand's sensing of the "Black Cords" in EOTW. I always took those cords to be males connection to the DO back when the taint was still a problem. I don't think that it was their connection to TP, do you think Asmo would have been allowed to use TP? No way. I think it was what the DO was using to protect the male channelers from the taint. Also, I think once the cord was broken on Asmo he said something about how he wouldn't be able to return to the DO now. Anyone remember something like that?

 

actually asmodean could channel the TP. It says explicitly that until Ishmael was reborn as Moridin, that all of the foresaken could channel the TP. They just never did because of the severe consequences.

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Doesn't it seem strange that when Rand touched the True Source he wasn't automatically converted to the Dark One, Does this mean that Shaitan has been lying to the forsaken making them think that only through him can the True Power be accessed when in reality anybody can access this power?

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It's generally accepted that he either accessed it through Moridin without the Dark One's knowledge or the Dark One purposely let him use it to corrupt him (once again, probably through Moridin).

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To those referencing Rand's sensing of the "Black Cords" in EOTW. I always took those cords to be males connection to the DO back when the taint was still a problem. I don't think that it was their connection to TP, do you think Asmo would have been allowed to use TP? No way. I think it was what the DO was using to protect the male channelers from the taint. Also, I think once the cord was broken on Asmo he said something about how he wouldn't be able to return to the DO now. Anyone remember something like that?

 

actually asmodean could channel the TP. It says explicitly that until Ishmael was reborn as Moridin, that all of the foresaken could channel the TP. They just never did because of the severe consequences.

 

Thanks for the info. For some reason I thought that only Ishmael was granted access, but now I think I remember something like that being mentioned. The theory could still be right, but now there is nothing to support it either way.

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Rand has scene a mysterious face in his head for a while. I think it is Moridin's so him seeing a face while reaching for the TP it becomes a logical conclusion. I am not sure if their has ever been any confirmation that the mysterious face rand sees sometimes is Moridin's though.
In KoD, Rand recognises the face he sees as that of the man from SL, the one who was wielding TP. At a time when only Moridin could. So yes, we've had it confirmed he sees Moridin's face.
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Doesn't it seem strange that when Rand touched the True Source he wasn't automatically converted to the Dark One, Does this mean that Shaitan has been lying to the forsaken making them think that only through him can the True Power be accessed when in reality anybody can access this power?

 

I assume you meant the True Power (not the True Source).  However, nowhere in the series does it mention that if you touch the TP you are suddenly "converted" to the Dark One.

 

The DO was not lying.  RJ himself said that the TP comes directly from the DO.  BS recently stated that only the DO can grant access to the TP.  We know that currently (excluding Rand, because we aren't sure how he accesses it) only Moridin has been given access to the TP.  All of the other Forsaken currently don't have access.

 

Now, whether or not the DO gave Rand access, or if he is somehow accessing it through his link to Moridin is debatable.  We don't know if the DO or Moridin even know that Rand has that access.

 

People seem to be pretty well split on this theory; either (1) Rand was intentionally given access by the DO, and it was his plan all along, or (2) Rand accessed the TP through his mental link to Moridin.  Those are the two popular theories.

 

I believe that Rand accessed it because the DO let him, but I don't think (like I used to) that it is because this was the DO's plan.  I think Semirhage wasn't supposed to torture Rand, but she did, and so the DO, in an attempt to prevent Moridin from being hurt through his link with Rand, granted Rand access as a means for his escape.  Semi may have "forced" the DO's hand in this situation.

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Just a thought.

 

The only-bad taveren effect starts after Rand snaps, channels TP and starts controlling the pattern (or thinks he start controlling the pattern). Most people seems to think this is due to TP, but what if it is not the use of TP that causes the bad taveren effects but that Rand starts controlling the pattern. I think it is when he appears to force the pattern that Aes Sedai see the darkness around him.

 

We now that the pattern balances out Good v/s Evil. If Rand tries to change everything to be better (at least from his point of view) by forcing his will on the pattern, the pattern balance this out by random evil. Any thoughts anyone?

 

/David

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The only-bad taveren effect starts after Rand snaps, channels TP and starts controlling the pattern (or thinks he start controlling the pattern). Most people seems to think this is due to TP, but what if it is not the use of TP that causes the bad taveren effects but that Rand starts controlling the pattern. I think it is when he appears to force the pattern that Aes Sedai see the darkness around him.

 

BS stated that Rand's 'dark aura' was partially due to Rand's TP-channeling.  I'm guess it's also partially due to Rand becoming more inhuman, or perhaps simply diverging from what the Pattern wants him to do.

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He shall hold a blade of light in his hands and the three shall be one - page 742 The Gathering Storm...

 

Read it again.

And again.

 

He shall hold a blade of light in his hands and the three shall be one...

...Hands...  Rand only has one hand.  Is this a mistake?  I think not.

 

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I don't think so, I'm fairly sure it was either the taint or his link with Moridin that caused the sickness. Probably the taint.

 

On the subject of LTT has it occured to anyone that if what we saw at the end of the book is correct and LTT's memories and personalities have been successfully merged with Rands (I believe he was suffering from the mental disease Semi said he had, where memories from his past life intrude into his new one and he hears voices)then Rand's personality might dramatically change.

 

This is only speculation but LTT lived for several hundred years and it makes sense that if Rand was suddenly given full access to all/alot of his memories and the emotions that go with them he might become distinctly more like LTT. I think it would be interesting to see his character to evolve this way and a far better plot twist than "he got better and is now like book 4 Rand". I mean does anyone really want him reverting to something we've already seen.

 

I think it would be great if in the next two books we see Rand approaching problems like LTT (and quite alot of himself aswell) would. Imagine the scenes with people like Egwene if he was actually The Dragon Reborn in them.

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I don't think so, I'm fairly sure it was either the taint or his link with Moridin that caused the sickness. Probably the taint.

 

I think it is most likely his link with Moridin.  My next favorite theory is that it is caused in some way by the wound Fain gave him and/or the wards placed around it.  If it was just the taint you would think some of the other Asha'man would have it too.

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I don't think so, I'm fairly sure it was either the taint or his link with Moridin that caused the sickness. Probably the taint.

 

On the subject of LTT has it occured to anyone that if what we saw at the end of the book is correct and LTT's memories and personalities have been successfully merged with Rands (I believe he was suffering from the mental disease Semi said he had, where memories from his past life intrude into his new one and he hears voices)then Rand's personality might dramatically change.

 

This is only speculation but LTT lived for several hundred years and it makes sense that if Rand was suddenly given full access to all/alot of his memories and the emotions that go with them he might become distinctly more like LTT. I think it would be interesting to see his character to evolve this way and a far better plot twist than "he got better and is now like book 4 Rand". I mean does anyone really want him reverting to something we've already seen.

 

I think it would be great if in the next two books we see Rand approaching problems like LTT (and quite alot of himself aswell) would. Imagine the scenes with people like Egwene if he was actually The Dragon Reborn in them.

 

He wouldn't be like LTT, he would be like the Dragon, as the Dragon should be, but yes more LTT thrown into the mix, with some awesome new weavings.

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About the whole Rand merging with LTT thing. I'd like to point out that this isn't technically correct.

 

That was the answer. It all swept over him' date=' lives lived, mistakes made, love changing everything. He saw the entire world in his mind's eye, lit by the glow in his hand. He remembered lives, [b']hundreds of them, thousands of them, stretching to infinity.[/b]

 

First, it isn't so much that Lews Therin and Rand merge, but that Rand has been suffering from a dissociative personality disorder and amnesia. Basically, he has been talking to himself in his head, because he couldn't accept that the ancient memories were his own, so he externalized them in the voice of Lews Therin.

 

Second, he now remembers more then the life of Lews Therin. He is now a bit like Birgitte. He remembers all (or at least a large number) of his past incarnations. I think this is fascinating. I think we all knew that the voice in Rand's head wasn't a real person, since some of us at least understood that Rand was Lews Therin Reborn, he couldn't be talking to himself as a separate person in the way Rand thinks of it. Rand finally comes to terms with the fact that he actually is Lews Therin just like Lanfear always said. But I don't think we expected that when Rand figured it out, he'd also gain the memory of his even more ancient lives.

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The question now is, what effect will this have on him? Will he remember everything? and be an overpowered OP weilding god? will he remember the lives of the dragon when the dragon existed and the OP no longer existed? Discuss.

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I don't think so, I'm fairly sure it was either the taint or his link with Moridin that caused the sickness. Probably the taint.

 

On the subject of LTT has it occured to anyone that if what we saw at the end of the book is correct and LTT's memories and personalities have been successfully merged with Rands (I believe he was suffering from the mental disease Semi said he had, where memories from his past life intrude into his new one and he hears voices)then Rand's personality might dramatically change.

 

This is only speculation but LTT lived for several hundred years and it makes sense that if Rand was suddenly given full access to all/alot of his memories and the emotions that go with them he might become distinctly more like LTT. I think it would be interesting to see his character to evolve this way and a far better plot twist than "he got better and is now like book 4 Rand". I mean does anyone really want him reverting to something we've already seen.

 

I think it would be great if in the next two books we see Rand approaching problems like LTT (and quite alot of himself aswell) would. Imagine the scenes with people like Egwene if he was actually The Dragon Reborn in them.

 

couldn't agree more.

 

I'd like to see him with the authority and seniority of several hundred years experience, while not acting all foolish trying to be "iron" and harder.

 

although it was an indication that he was completely off his rocker at the time, i liked the scene in tGS where he is like, "I have lived for thousands of years... don't call me young" obviously i'm butchering the quote... but it was something like that ;)

 

and yes i would like to see how his personality has evolved now, knowing several hundred live's worth of memories.. or at least parts from a lot of them.  Since the way we interpret situations makes a person who they are, it will be interesting to see how this affects him

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I think it was something like "I have seen entire cities destroyed with balefire, you dare question me when you are 3000 years my junior?" (id have to look up the exact quote to get it right lol)

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Just a thought.

 

The only-bad taveren effect starts after Rand snaps, channels TP and starts controlling the pattern (or thinks he start controlling the pattern). Most people seems to think this is due to TP, but what if it is not the use of TP that causes the bad taveren effects but that Rand starts controlling the pattern. I think it is when he appears to force the pattern that Aes Sedai see the darkness around him.

 

We now that the pattern balances out Good v/s Evil. If Rand tries to change everything to be better (at least from his point of view) by forcing his will on the pattern, the pattern balance this out by random evil. Any thoughts anyone?

 

/David

 

In response to this i would like to quote the Prophecies of the Dragon:

 

Master of the lightnings, rider on the storm,

wearer of a crown of swords, spinner out of fate.

Who thinks he turns the Wheel of Time,

may learn the truth too late.

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