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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
JenniferL

Rand's Plotline (spoilers for the entire book)

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True, this would explain it. I guess different sources of power have different rules. Where I start to get a bit confused is how one source of power can have two different methods of its use. And your explanation still doesn't answer how and why the weaves would work the same way despite being spun differently. That doesn't make much sense, as there are specific mentions of how the Power only has one weave for a function.

 

I am pretty sure they have mentioned different ways to achieve the same thing with the OP.  IIRC Avi has a problem making gateways Egwene's way because she originally did it a different way that she now can't remember.  I think there was even a discussion at one point that once you learn a weave one way trying to do it differently is hard and not as powerful.

 

Having said all that I think the TP weave's are going to be different from both saidin and saidar.  We know from what RJ has said that the TP method of traveling is different from either the saidin or the saidar way, so it seems likely that all the weave's would be different.

I see.

 

But, like you, I still think that weaves created with the TP have to be different from the ones you create with the OP.

 

As for "Rand just Does Stuff"... that's not really an explanation, given the fact that BS described it as weaving Fire and Air.

 

If Rand knew he was weaving Fire and Air, that means he understood the TP in the same way that he understands the OP, which means that they're more similar than seems to make sense.

 

I guess the heart of the debate is, what really sets the OP and TP apart, aside from the source and feelings of euphoria?

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Crossroads of Twilight book tour 20 January 2003 - Dayton, OH

 

Q: (inaudible)

RJ: Yes, the Champion of the Light has gone over in the past. This is a game you have to win every time. Or rather, that you can only lose once--you can stay in if you get a draw. Think of a tournament with single elimination. If you lose once, that's it. In the past, when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the Shadow, the result has been a draw.

 

As Bob T Dwarf pointed out earlier in this thread, The Champion of the Light has gone over to the shadow in previous turnings.  He also said that Ishy was a liar.  He was very good at answering the question you didn't think that you had asked.  Is it possible that both responses are true, because the Champion of the Light is not always The Dragon Soul?

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I'm sure the true power is similar enough to the one power that the same weaves work. Its meant to be this tempting force that once used it gets you hooked and basically slaved to the dark ones will. The forsaken all had access to the TP but almost never used it due to fear of addiction, but they still could do things with it.

 

HOW could you teach someone TP only weaves when no-one but yourself can see the weaves your making?

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We received a lot of new information on Callandor and a reminder that 13 suspicious Aes Sedai are still hunting Rand.  There remains the fact that Callandor only works properly if the male channeler is linked in a circle with women.  Min and Cad seem to agree that Rand will need to wield Callandor at TLB with two Aes Sedai linking with him.

 

Rand has come back to his senses and has quieted LTT's voice in his head reminded that he lives to experience life and love again before he faces the DO.  RJ and BS love drama, so I'm going out on a limb with a possible plot progression we may see.

 

Our new Good Hero Rand prepares for TLB.  13 BA complete a ritual to bind him to the Shadow.  The forces of the Light have to use a Domination Band on him (Two Female Aes Sedai linked to control Rand) and force him to wield Callandor against the Shadow at TLB.  These could likely be Nyn and Cad.

 

For some reason the Horn of Valere also needs to be at TLB, so I expect Rand to die prematurely.  Being bound to the Wheel, the Horn-Blower will be able to return him and the other Heroes to finish the battle against the DO.

 

Man. I really really hope not. Plus I am pretty sure Rand isn't bound to the wheel in that sense.

 

I can be certain that never again will Rand let the domination band placed upon him. And even if the 13 BA got close to him he is never alone anymore even if he is more trusting now. Egwene as a list of BA and she im sure would notify Nynaeve of some names she could look out for in case they come to Rand.

 

I think Rand is bound to the Horn in a very direct way. Remember in the GH Hawkwin appears and recognizes Rand. He calls him LT though. So here is a question, how does AH knows LT if he lived after the breaking. If this is from previous wheel turns that why use LT and not the dragon. I mean, Rand's name is Rand and not LT and I really doubt that before Rand every dragon was called LT.

Unless Rand is different somehow (maybe the wheel will be broken) this makes no sense. However, if we remember TYOTW, and the quote (paraphrase) "I will not take part in this, not here. Only the chosen one can do that needs to be done, if he will do so." Nothing about the dragon or LT. So maybe Rand is THE ONLY TRUE DRAGON that will end the wheel's turns and get rid of DO for good. And all the previous ones (I mean the Dragons) only had an opportunity to be the truly chosen ones (kind of like pattern spins out falls dragons in order to eventually get the true one).

Or maybe not...:)

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Well Artur hawking is spun out into the wheel as rand is, so perhaps he was spun out in the AOL and knew LTT personally, by the interactions at falme, i would assume that in the AOL all the heroes of the horn were spun out, because they seem to know him(LTT) personally.

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Remember that Heroes not currently spun out reside in T'a'R with full knowledge of all their previous lives.

 

So in the AoL Hawkwing would have been in TaR. When LTT killed himself after failing to seal the Bore properly he would have gone back into TaR. Seems like then would be a good time for a chat - my guess is they quite often talk about their past lives as they can't do much else (remember they are technically not allowed to interact with dreamwalkers - Birgitte said that herself). Then when LTT was spun out again as Rand, when the Horm was blown and Hawkwing was summoned he would know of LTT but not Rand. Hence he would address Rand as LTT or The Dragon.

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Once again:

The Path of Daggers book tour 22 October 1998, Los Angeles - Pam Basham reporting

 

Q: "Is [the Dragon] soul born in any other Age, or only at the advent and (theoretically, of course) the closing of the Third Age, as the Dragon/the Dragon Reborn?"

RJ: This soul is one of the Heroes, and bound to the Wheel, spun out as the Pattern wills.  "It" is born in other Ages, but in a non-Dragon incarnation, to suit the pattern of that Age.  In the course of this answer, he related this to why Hawkwing calls Rand "Lews Therin" at Falme--because Hawkwing recognizes this soul.  This didn't really tell me why he specifically calls him "Lews Therin", but apparently they've been hangin' together in Tel'aran'rhiod and the etiquette there is to call each other by the name of your last incarnation.  (My interpretation.)

 

Hawkwing recognizes Rand's soul as being the same soul that he's known through association together in T'a'R.  They've both been Heroes of The Horn long enough to have been spun out numerous times.  Not all of those lives as Heroes of the Horn.  Sometimes they've fought on the same side, sometimes they've fought on opposite sides.

 

Also what Lambada said.

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Yes, but it would be peculiar for some of them to not have been spun out in the AOL, maybe they are all spun out at least once each age?

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Yes, but it would be peculiar for some of them to not have been spun out in the AOL, maybe they are all spun out at least once each age?

that is unfortunately pure speculation.

The Pattern only spins them out when they are needed. We have no information as to whether any were needed in the AOL itself.

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Really great chapters with Rand in this book.

The one with him and Moridin was pretty interesting. It was nice to see Moridin as a different type of Forsaken, not like the other crazy egomaniacs, but as tired and desperate man, who can see the DO as the only way out.

 

I love the moment when Rand broke the collar and then when he exiled Cadsuane. Tho Tam did better - "a bully is a bully..." :)

 

Dark Rand was my man, it was strange when we could see him through Min and Nynaeve's eyes tho, he was too evil indeed. I miss the old Rand, the one from the first books.

 

Ah, and "Veins of Gold" - epic... shame he didn't erase Tuon and the seanchans from the pattern first.

 

So what we need to know is this: What gives Rand the power to defeat the Dark One? LTT was terrified of the True Power. Has the Dragon ever wielded the True Power before?

Why does the DO want Rand captured rather than defeated? Does only Rand have the power to destroy the pattern? Or is that the DO's true aim?

 

On that point, I think Moridin was wrong when he was saying to Rand that DO win is assured, if Rand win it'll be just another turn of the Wheel and another battle, but if DO win all will end. I think it's the opposite, it's because Rand (and the Light) never really won, that's why the Wheel is turning again (like on the same spot, without moving forward) - to give them (Rand and all others) the chance to do it right this time, to defeat DO for good. That's why DO don't want to kill Rand, because there will be just another turn of the Wheel. He need Rand to achieve victory (whatever that means :)).

 

...Funny how his laughing again had nothing to do with Elayne being pregnant or Moiraine being alive.

I agree, I was thinking it'll be one of these - either Moaraine or Elayne's kids.

BTW does Rand know about Elayne's pregnancy?

 

I also thank Rand will use TP to touch DO, either to seal him or kill him. It make sense. And maybe kill himself in the process.

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Yes, but it would be peculiar for some of them to not have been spun out in the AOL, maybe they are all spun out at least once each age?

that is unfortunately pure speculation.

The Pattern only spins them out when they are needed. We have no information as to whether any were needed in the AOL itself.

 

Not quite.  As the quote I posted makes clear, they are spun out fairly often in non-Hero roles.  They are only spun out as Heroes when the Wheel specifically needs a Hero.

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...Funny how his laughing again had nothing to do with Elayne being pregnant or Moiraine being alive.

I agree, I was thinking it'll be one of these - either Moaraine or Elayne's kids.

BTW does Rand know about Elayne's pregnancy?

 

Not at all. Rand is suffering from depression and dissociative personality disorder (not sure the exact clinical term here). Mental illness is not something that can be magically healed by giving a person unexpected good news. Without healing the soul from within, all you get is short term mental uplifts (as in book 7 when Rand realizes that Min loved and wanted him). as an example, see how his meeting with Tam went - it wasn't the happy family moment we were all waiting for, because Rand is not capable of feeling happiness.

He needs to find reason to live and hope first.

 

As to the question on Eleyne's pregnancy, no he does not know. Only the Aiel Wise Ones know but they did not tell him - I think they are saving this for Aviendha to relate.

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Hello all - first post here, but longtime reader.

 

Anyway, a few points:

I think the DO granting rand TP access was entirely intentional, even if his link with Moridin was the mechanism for this.  Sure, the DO sacrificed one of his pawns, but look at what he almost accomplished in doing so - rand's brush with the tp left him darkened, emotionally tainted, evil, so that a room would darken when he entered it.  This brush with evil must have instinctually taught him to more actively manipulate his ta'averen-ness, hence his very real threat to kill Cadsuane with mere coincidence.  I think the DO's plan culminated on dragonmount, when rand, full of despair, actively considered unravelling the pattern, which, either through CK-powered balefire or maybe CK-enjanced force of will, he probably could have done.  This would have spelled complete victory for the DO; the pattern is the substance of his prison, and in destroying it he would be free.

So, by sacrificing semirage, the DO almost won before the real fighting began.

 

From the nature of rand's TP encounter I've concluded that LTT's remark about touching the bore with saidin and tainting it is just a well-crafted red herring.  rand using the TP instead of saidin would seem the obvious choice for avoiding a taint if not for a few things: first, the TP is of the DO, and it seems pretty unreasonable for rand to use it to defeat him. Second, rand's goal isn't to remake the seals - he's trying to heal the prison, the pattern, altogether, and rand's newfound ability to actively use his ta'averen, particularly when backed by mat and perrin, seems like a much better way to heal the pattern.  And finally, rand just using this new power doesn't feel right for the series; it would leave him dark and tainted and would discount the ta'averen we've heard about since meeting Loial in caemlyn.

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I submit that the Callandor prophecy of 3 becoming 1 refers to saidar, saidin and the true power. Also,it has been tapped before without the express written consent of the DO--by the guy who drilled the bore in the AOL. This must be a critical distinction-otherwise one of the forsaken would have drilled more holes.....

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the bore was made in order to get access to a foreign source of power that we later learn is the dark one himself, pretty sure there was no using of the TP invovled.

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The new source was the true power. Unless you're suggesting a fourth power?

“The One Power comes from the True Source, the driving force of creation, the force the Creator made to turn the Wheel of Time. Saidin, the male half of the true source, and saidar, the female half, work against each other, and at the same time together to provide that force. Saidin is fouled by the touch of the Dark One, like water with a thin slick of rancid oil floating on top. The water is till pure, but it cannot be touched without touching the foulness. Only saidar is still safe to be used...

The True Source cannot be used up, any more than the river can be used up by the wheel of the mill. The Source is the river; the Aes Sedai, the waterwheel.”

  —Moiraine Damodred

 

What if instead of tapping the TP, he actually found a way to access the True Source. Would not the TP be the TS filtered through the DO? What if he actually found an "un filtered" way to the TS. Has all the same affects as TP but a "good" addictive power??

 

The pattern is all about balance, since the DO has the TP, where is the balance? Why is there no mention of a "GOOD" creation type entity. Lots of talk about yin/yang of pattern balance.  Other threads mention that a fact assumed may have a large impact later... well, Rand found a way around Saider/Saiden... <<<discuss>>>

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I would interpret Moirane's quote as meaning that saidin and saidar are the true source, so a third is still needed for the Callandor prophecy- something that couldn't be tainted by the DO-like the true power.

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I would interpret Moirane's quote as meaning that saidin and saidar are the true source, so a third is still needed for the Callandor prophecy- something that couldn't be tainted by the DO-like the true power.

 

My point was not necessarly in reference to the 3 become 1... More a question of whether or not the belief that the power Rand used to break the Domination band was actually TP or possibly an Unfiltered True Source. Because really where does the TP come from, DO, but where does it come from from him? The True Source right, it turns the pattern... Rand found another way to the True Source, without the DO as middle man...

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I would interpret Moirane's quote as meaning that saidin and saidar are the true source, so a third is still needed for the Callandor prophecy- something that couldn't be tainted by the DO-like the true power.

 

My point was not necessary in reference to the 3 become 1... More a question of whether or not the belief that the power Rand used to break the Domination band was actually TP or possibly an Unfiltered True Source. Because really where does the TP come from, DO, but where does it come from from him? The True Source right, it turns the pattern... Rand found another way to the True Source, without the DO as middle man...

 

The One Power comes from the True Source, the driving force of creation, the force the Creator made to turn the Wheel of Time.

Moirane's quote mentions the Creator (capitalized) ... the force the Creator made... Creator balances DO with power similar to TP...

 

/shrug ideas....

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My point was not necessarly in reference to the 3 become 1... More a question of whether or not the belief that the power Rand used to break the Domination band was actually TP or possibly an Unfiltered True Source. Because really where does the TP come from, DO, but where does it come from from him? The True Source right, it turns the pattern... Rand found another way to the True Source, without the DO as middle man...

 

Eh...Lews Therin (well, Rand, I guess. Or... whatever) recognized it as "HIM." He used TP, not some super duper version of the True Source.

 

 

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The new source was the true power. Unless you're suggesting a fourth power?

 

I just meant no one channeled the true power when the bore was made, they just sensed the new source of power (dark one/true power) and went for it.

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