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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
JenniferL

Rand's Plotline (spoilers for the entire book)

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I know "love and hope" are cliche... But really, what else is worth fighting for? 

It wasn't so much the cliche used as I think it was kind of ovious that was what was going to happen. The problem I have with the chapter is the shoddy and broken writing, as well as the generic feel of it. It really was the only point in the book where I genuinly thought "ah now there is where you can tell RJ was not writing the book"

 

While the prose was not up to RJ's standards (through much of the book, but especially here), the contents were clearly RJ. It feels "obvious" to you, because you have seen where it all leads from the POV's of everyone else. But while we all wait for him to finally see it, Rand has no idea where he is going until he gets there. It's not the destination that matters here but the journey. I thought Rand's journey from madness and despair to acceptance and internal peace was done very well and with enough detail and depth that I really was touched by it. It wasn't sugarcoated by any means.

 

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Has anyone brought up just how Elza got the Domination Band or even knew where it was?  As far as I can recall only Cadsuane, Sorilea, and Bair knew where it was.  I don't think it was Cadsuane who told so that leads me to believe that either Sorilea or Bair is a darkfriend.  Did I miss something elsewhere that would lead to Shaidar Haran or Elza knowing where the Domination Band is and how to open the box without the traps being sprung?

 

New poster here, and I saw this question.

 

I'm wondering if Graendal had something to do with this.  No idea how she would know exactly where the Domination Band was being kept, but the results do seem to point towards the sort of thing she would do.

Moridin told Graendal that she would be rewarded if she brought the DR pain, agony, and despair.

Graendal knew Semi well enough, both from personal experience, as well as being the equivalent of being the world's greatest psychologist and a master manipulator, that she would know -exactly- what Semi would do to Rand as soon as she had control of him via the band.  She'd be the type of person who would know that Semi would be unable to resist having a bit of fun with him first, rather than bringing Rand to Shayol Ghul right away or wherever.

Elza told Semi that she had Verin's Compulsion on her mind to be removed.  Just the fact that someone told her she was being compelled showed that whoever told her this had distinct knowledge of what Compulsion was.  Graendal is the mistress of Compulsion and would be the first to recognize it, even in a rudimentary form.  I doubt any of the Black Ajah or especially any Darkfriend Wise Ones would know specifically to call it that.  Shaidar Haran might, but again, who knows if he knows enough about the specific workings of the power to recognize individual weaves and what their known names for those weaves are.

If Graendal was the one who led to Semi getting set free with the Domination Band, then she would be the one responsible for Rand's pain and agony of killing Min with his own hand, even though Semi was the one who actually had him do it.

Moridin did specifically forbid Mesaana and Demandred from trying to free Semi, but I don't know if he extended this specific prohibition onto Graendal.

 

Best case scenario, she would have given Rand the pain and despair beyond any other, what Moridin had told her to do.  Worst case scenario, Rand or one of his followers would have killed Semi, which would have left Graendal with less competition amongst the forsaken.

 

There was the prologue chapter that made it a specific point to let the readers know that Graendal would plan to give Rand his pain and despair, yet if she didn't have anything to do with this, I don't remember her doing anything to lead towards that before she was offed.  Why would this chapter have specifically pointed it out if nothing was to come of it?

 

Plausible, or totally out of left field?

 

 

I thought this was a very valid point that got sucked under by the discussion on LTT. I personally don't have time to agree with/counter, but just thought it should be brought back up.

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My theory about the 3 into 1 may refer to

 

TP, saidin, saidar

 

Rand has the ability to use the TP and with Two circles one saidin and the other saidar they should be able to rebuild DO prison.  I believe Rand know the weave to bind all groups together with the help of Callandor to bind Saidin and Saidar together and Rands weave this will allow the two circles to do there job.

 

LTT said they needed to touch the DO and because there was no buffer between his circle and the DO the male side of the OP got tainted.  With Rand acting as the buffer between the OP and DO I believe it will work this time.  

 

The last time this was tried the ladies were apprehensive with LTT idea and did not participate in trying to imprison the DO. Ltt was so afraid of using the True Power he wasn't able to create the buffer the male Aes Sedai needed to protect themselves.  I think they still would have failed but they would not have had the taint attached to there side of the One Power if LTT had used the True Power as the buffer.

 

So my theory is Saidin,Saidar and True Power is what is refer to as 3 into 1.

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This is just idle speculation on my part, but hear me out.

 

Rand can now channel the True power.

Callandor "magnifies the taint"

Both the taint and the True power come from the dark one.  What if they're the same(ish)?

If so, what would happen if Rand were to Channel the True Power through Callandor? Would it be "magnified" :o?

 

Again, just idle speculation...

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There was the prologue chapter that made it a specific point to let the readers know that Graendal would plan to give Rand his pain and despair, yet if she didn't have anything to do with this, I don't remember her doing anything to lead towards that before she was offed.  Why would this chapter have specifically pointed it out if nothing was to come of it?

 

Plausible, or totally out of left field?

 

There is another, quite more plausible way to read that part of the prologue. Focus on who gives the order, and not on who recieves it. And look at that in combination with Moridin explicitly forbidding Demandred and Mesaana to attempt any kind of rescue for Semi, only to have SH waltz in later.

 

I would say that it looks an awful lot like Graendal was the backup plan. Had Semirhage failed, there would be another player ready to step in and try to get the job done.

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Where to start?

 

How about with RJ's and now BS's obsession with ending on a big bright note.

 

This book could have been ended with DarkRand going through the Gateway after pushing Tam down.  I had posts all ready to let fly.  "Finally the Darkness we've been waiting for..." and all that.  (Frankly, could have ended with Rand/Tam and Gawyn carrying Eg. out of the Tower.  Could have changed everything by in effect changing nothing). 

 

But, as if on cue, DarkRand is nerfed into LaughingRand, and TGS's two main arcs take HUGE swings towards the light.  So much for things having to get darker...

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This is just idle speculation on my part, but hear me out.

 

Rand can now channel the True power.

Callandor "magnifies the taint"

Both the taint and the True power come from the dark one.  What if they're the same(ish)?

If so, what would happen if Rand were to Channel the True Power through Callandor? Would it be "magnified" :o?

 

Again, just idle speculation...

Doubt it! Callandor is an object of the One Power... I doubt it has any effect on the True Power.

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This book could have been ended with DarkRand going through the Gateway after pushing Tam down.  I had posts all ready to let fly.  "Finally the Darkness we've been waiting for..." and all that.  (Frankly, could have ended with Rand/Tam and Gawyn carrying Eg. out of the Tower.  Could have changed everything by in effect changing nothing). But, as if on cue, DarkRand is nerfed into LaughingRand, and TGS's two main arcs take HUGE swings towards the light.  So much for things having to get darker...

 

I'd call Rand balefiring hundreds of people and nearly killing his father dark.  I'd call him touching the True Power dark.  I'd call him leaving Arad Doman and millions of people in the nation to death dark.

 

However, I'd not call him going out of his funk 'nerfing'.  You can't have darkness, darkness, darkness.  There's something called moderation.

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However, I'd not call him going out of his funk 'nerfing'.  You can't have darkness, darkness, darkness.  There's something called moderation.

 

Only the "darkness" lasts for about 6 hours of reader time, then everything gets tied up with a red bow at the end of the book, so that we're left with lightness, lightness, lightness for the next 12 months, just like we have at the conclusion of each book in the series.  There's been no moderation in that regard.  And as I said, you don't have to change one detail of the story to do it, just the point where an episode ends.  As I mentioned in another thread before the book release, RJ (and BS) would have ended The Empire Strikes Back after Jabba's death and Han's rescue.  So without changing the facts of the story, you totally castrate it.  That's what WoT does, each and every time.  Veins of Gold is a perfect example. So were Mat and Avi's first deaths (or was that Mat's second death?).  They were dead for like what, 5 minutes?  Then whaddya know, they're back before the end of the book and it's like it never happened...(cause that's how Balefire works). 

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This book could have been ended with DarkRand going through the Gateway after pushing Tam down.  I had posts all ready to let fly.  "Finally the Darkness we've been waiting for..." and all that.  (Frankly, could have ended with Rand/Tam and Gawyn carrying Eg. out of the Tower.  Could have changed everything by in effect changing nothing).

 

Dark well BS can't please everyone, I for one believe he was DarkRand and when he came oh so close to killing his own father that was the start of the turning point.  Most of this book he was on the edge of darkness or right in it up to his neck.

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My theory about the 3 into 1 may refer to

 

TP, saidin, saidar

 

Rand has the ability to use the TP and with Two circles one saidin and the other saidar they should be able to rebuild DO prison.  I believe Rand know the weave to bind all groups together with the help of Callandor to bind Saidin and Saidar together and Rands weave this will allow the two circles to do there job.

 

LTT said they needed to touch the DO and because there was no buffer between his circle and the DO the male side of the OP got tainted.  With Rand acting as the buffer between the OP and DO I believe it will work this time.  

 

The last time this was tried the ladies were apprehensive with LTT idea and did not participate in trying to imprison the DO. Ltt was so afraid of using the True Power he wasn't able to create the buffer the male Aes Sedai needed to protect themselves.  I think they still would have failed but they would not have had the taint attached to there side of the One Power if LTT had used the True Power as the buffer.

 

So my theory is Saidin,Saidar and True Power is what is refer to as 3 into 1.

 

I don't think that would work, nor do I think that is what is referred to as the three becoming one.

 

The prophecy is "He shall hold a blade of light in his hands, and the three shall become one."

 

I don't think that the blade of light necessarily refers to Callandor. Notice the use of the indefinite article "a," as opposed to "the." As well, we do not see capitalization of the term "blade of light," as we did with Callandor when it was referred to as "The Sword That Is Not A Sword." This implies that the term does not refer to something unique or proper, but is figurative, or--at the very least--less literal.

 

This is reinforced because unless three things or three people literally become one, then that is figurative. Hermeneutically, it doesn't make sense for part of the sentence to be literal and part to be figurative.

 

So therefore it is likely that either the whole sentence is literal or the whole sentence is figurative. I tend to think it is figurative.

 

Rand has already integrated with Lews Therin, who was not actually another person in the first place. What two people could he then literally become one with?

 

However I will concede it possible, and more likely than the whole saidin, saidar, TP thing.

 

I could be completely wrong. But I don't think saidin+saidar+TP equals three. I think it equals two. True Power isn't the equivalent of saidin or saidar. It's  the Dark One's equivalent of the One Power in general. You can achieve things with TP that require both saidin and saidar. It isn't inherently gender-divided. It isn't bound by most of the limits saidin and saidar are. It isn't equal. It is superior.

 

I think that the True Power is like an amniotic fluid surrounding the metaphorical embryo that is the Dark One. Thus it wouldn't make sense to use the True Power to seal itself. The Pattern has a hole in it. Thus, it must be replaced by none other than... more Pattern. How else could this be achieved if not with ta'veren?

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With regards to the whole "blade of light" issue.

 

At the beginning of TGS Rand mentions having been given an unmarked blade that he'd previously seen himself holding - presumably in a vision as far as back as TEOTW.

 

Now, I'm guessing that Callandor could be a red herring as you've suggested, as it's almost too obvious a choice.

 

What if it's this new and mysterious sword? As I recall, there was no significance attached to it in TGS, beyond what I've already stated.

 

Suggestive, no? 

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we know saidin and sadar working with and against each other turn the wheel of time. So maybe using both together in some complex way can mend reality and fix the bore. As opposed to just placing some kind of patch over it which would lead to the power being tainted.

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That "Sword of Light" in the prophecy uses the same type of terminology as the sword of light Rand used against Ishamael in the Eye of the World.  Rand was pretty much high off the power of the Eye of the World at the time and it's a type of weapon Rand hasn't used since (his firesword is completely different), so that may hint to what the sword of light is in the prophecy.

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I dunno if this has been touched on yet, but couldn't rand and co. refill the eye of the world, and use that for the purpose of helping seal the Dark One's Prison. I'm still not onboard with the whole theory that the true power will be used to seal it, and I won't be until the words are typed on paper. if then.

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Most of this book he was on the edge of darkness or right in it up to his neck.

 

But God forbid (Creator forbid?) that Rand gets left that way between books as a way of building tension.  Readers like Eleint would stage a revolt.

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My theory has the TP used as a buffer between the OP and DO so both Saidin and Saidar can be used to rebuild the Seals that imprison the DO.  As LTT said the last time they try this they actually touch the DO with Saidin and that's how the male half of the OP was tainted.  TP is suppose to be a power from the DO.

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Most of this book he was on the edge of darkness or right in it up to his neck.

 

But God forbid (Creator forbid?) that Rand gets left that way between books as a way of building tension.  Readers like Eleint would stage a revolt.

 

So you think he should have been left like that, and then in the first chapter of the new book have the 'revelation'? That would be much worse. I don't see a problem with ending the books on a "good" note.

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But God forbid (Creator forbid?) that Rand gets left that way between books as a way of building tension.  Readers like Eleint would stage a revolt.

 

Damn straight I would.  I don't need false mechanisms to generate tension.  There's enough interesting tension in the books already without using such a tactic.  Then again, I don't think that 'darkness is cool' or 'true angst is art' either.  A heretic, I am. :)

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I came across an interesting question:

How to re-seal the Bore?

To know how to repair it I think it is wisest to know what it actually is.

Here is what I found:

"With his coming are the dread fires born again. The hills burn, and the land turns sere. The tides of men run out, and the hours dwindle. The wall is pierced, and the veil of parting raised. Storms rumble beyond the horizon, and the fires of heaven purge the earth. There is no salvation without destruction, no hope this side of death."

 

- The Fires Of Heaven, Opening prophecy

 

“The wall is pierced”, refers, of course, to the creation of the Bore. “The veil of parting”, refers, I think, to the sealing of the Bore by LTT.

 

So this is how I envision the creation and sealing of the Bore:

“There was once upon a time a happy land with happy people and a big huge endless wall. Two people were very curious what would be behind that wall and started to examine it, till by chance they came they knocked on a stone which sounded different than the others. They started to think of ways how to remove that stone and eventually succeeded.

They looked through the hole and didn’t see a thing, so disappointed they went home. In the world everyone started to notice things were going wrong.” Then there is a part which isn’t important, so we skip to the end “A man decided to go to the hole and fill it up in secret, he got a lot of resistance from every woman, so he decided to go their himself . Once their he didn’t really know what to do so he put up his clothes as a veil to prevent the filth getting in. Of course there still came some filth through.”

Those clothes represent saidin, which was in due tainted, slowly the clothes absorbed all sort of filth from the DO. The result of the absorption is now noticed because of the fact you only have to touch the veil make a hole in the veil.

 

So apparently the re-sealing wasn’t quite successful with saidin alone, as a response to this people say you have to use both saidin and saidar (and maybe also TP).

I disagree with this theory, because of what saidin and saidar are:

 

“The Great Wheel is the very heart of all time. But even the Wheel requires energy to maintain itself and its pattern. This energy comes from the True Source, from which the One Power may be drawn. Both the True Source and the One Power are made up of two conflicting yet complementary parts saidin, the male half, and saidar which provide the driving force that turns the Wheel of Time.”

• The World of Robert Jordan’s Wheel of Time, The Wheel and The Power, p.7

 

So I think you have to use the One Power to actually ‘push’ a stone back in place.

 

And for those who are convinced their theory is true, here  is something else:

“Q:  Why saidin, why not saidar, was tainted?

RJ:  Because there were only men in the party that made up the party that made up the Strike at  Shayol Ghul, that were setting the seals.  In the act of setting the seals, there was a backblast that affected the people doing this.  As I pointed out in something…I wrote a piece called The Strike at Shayol Ghul…there was a great division at the time – I don’t know if all of you have read it…or have none of you read it?

Q:  Yes, yes.

RJ:  Okay, then you know about the political struggles that were going on, and the different plans to try and end the War of the Shadow, and seal up the….and why various groups thought that one plan or the other was the best way to go.  And in the end, what resulted was the so-called “Fatal Covenant” [it was actually the “Fateful Concord” – Terez], which had the female Aes Sedai swearing not to go along with Lews Therin’s plan, that they would not support it.  The result of this was that Lews Therin carried out his plan with only male Aes Sedai, so there were only male Aes Sedai channeling there, which was a lucky thing, because if there’d been women as well, then both saidin and saidar would have been tainted.  And his plan worked, except for that one side effect of the backblast which tainted saidin and caused him and the men there with him to go mad there and then, and other male Aes Sedai to go mad slowly as they touched the Source and began to absorb bits of the taint.  But that’s why saidar was not tainted, because there were only men there channeling during this act of sealing up the Dark One’s prison.”

 

I hope that this was enough.

 

However the problem of the making of the stone remains, so I re-read passages in books until I came across this one:

“A stone carving the size of her hand, all deep blue curves – it felt like stone, at least, though somehow it did not really look carved – was for growing something. Not plants. It made her think of holes, only they were not exactly holes. And she did not believe anyone had to channel to make it work. Only sing the right song! Some ter’angreal did not require channelling, but really! Singing?”

• Knife Of Dreams, A Different Skill, p.367

 

What others holes can one think of but holes in the Pattern, or better; the Bore.

 

Well, the first thing I have in mind when thinking of singing are the Tuatha’an:

 

““What was that about a song?” Egwene asked.

“That’s why they travel,” Elyas said, “or so they say. They’re looking for a song. That’s what the Mahdi seeks. They say they lost it during the Breaking of the World, and if they can find it again, the paradise of the Age of Legends will return.””

• The Eye Of The World, The Travelling People, p.368

 

This seems to suggest there is some sort of prophecy amongst the Tuatha’an that when they sing the right song the Age of Legends will return, keep in mind that in the Age of Legends the Bore was properly sealed.

 

I even think we already know the song:

 

“The Ogier began it, as was fitting, standing to sing, great bass rumbles like the earth singing. The Aiel rose, men’s voices lifting in their own song, even the deepest at a higher pitch than the Ogier’s. Yet the songs braided together, and Someshta took those threads and wove them into his dance, gliding across the field in swooping strides, arms wide, butterflies swirling about him, landing on his fingertips. Coumin could hear the seed singing around the other fields, hear the women clapping to urge men on, their rhythm the heartbeat of new life, but it was a distant knowledge. The song caught him up, and he almost felt that it was himself, not the sounds he made, that Someshta wove into the soil and around the seeds. Seeds no longer, though. Zemais sprouts covered the field, taller wherever Nym’s food had trod. No blight would touch those plants, nor any insect; seed sung, they would eventually grow twice as high as a man and fill the town’s grainbarns.”

• The Shadow Rising, The Dedicated, p.434

 

 

 

Here are some things that I think can be hooked into this theory, so this is the part of speculation:

• The Royal line of Andor will be the key in defeating the DO:

- Guess who has the ter’angreal  to fill holes?

• A Nym is needed:

- Moiraine is the only one who ever visited the Green Man twice.

• The prophecy: He shall hold a blade of light in his hands, and the three shall be one.

- The three shall be one could refer to the three different sort of singing in the Song, while  Rand (together with two females) ‘pushes the stone in place’.

 

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I'm pretty sure the object that involves singing is one of those Ogier talismans the men gave them to grow entrances into the Ways.  It fits the facts.  I honestly don't think it has anything to do with the Bore itself.

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I'm pretty sure the object that involves singing is one of those Ogier talismans the men gave them to grow entrances into the Ways.  It fits the facts.  I honestly don't think it has anything to do with the Bore itself.

 

What holes need growing with the Ways? And I think that the blue curves on the ter'angreal refer to the threads of the pattern, while I don't know where the blue curves would have to refer to with the Ways.

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