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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
JenniferL

Rand's Plotline (spoilers for the entire book)

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A idea on Rand Using the TP to seal the DO i defineitly think this will happen. Many say it cant becuase you access the TP from the DO. But me presenolly think that rand acess the TP through Mordin since they are connected and he can sence it through the other

 

I dont think it was the DO intention to have Rand draw that power i think he just wanted to have semi mak ehim kill Min and cuase him pain remember in the begining how they said to cuase him pain not to kill him

 

So how they planned to get Rand released then? Nah. I think the whole thing was planned from get-go with Semi being sacrificial lamb. However for that to work Rand would have to have SOME way to get free of Semi. One power doesn't work so that leaves...TP! Which also attaches Rand to DO and starts to corrupt(it will be real pain for him to ignore that one. Remember it's lot more seductive than OP. Rand only could avoid it because he had CK to counter-lure him. What now without CK?).

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Why call it the True Power when it only comes from the DO. I think the DO has a way of giving access to it, sure he has it right beside him up north underground but so is the one power up north and underground, and so is the blight it is no big deal.

 

You all get hung up on True power being the DO and that Rand is now somehow corrupted by it, thats just silliness. He got it because of the link with Moridin or because the creator wanted him to have it, not because of the DO that is far to play-school for RJ, in my opinion.

 

 

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Why call it the True Power when it only comes from the DO. I think the DO has a way of giving access to it, sure he has it right beside him up north underground but so is the one power up north and underground, and so is the blight it is no big deal.

 

You all get hung up on True power being the DO and that Rand is now somehow corrupted by it, thats just silliness. He got it because of the link with Moridin or because the creator wanted him to have it, not because of the DO that is far to play-school for RJ, in my opinion.

 

As far as we know (I think) the only ones to call it that are the forsaken; most others don't even know it exists.

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WEll i didint notice any mention of the Saa in Rands eyes and u get them right away after you channel the TP its only 1 in the beginning...

 

 

A idea on Rand Using the TP to seal the DO i defineitly think this will happen. Many say it cant becuase you access the TP from the DO. But me presenolly think that rand acess the TP through Mordin since they are connected and he can sence it through the other

 

I dont think it was the DO intention to have Rand draw that power i think he just wanted to have semi mak ehim kill Min and cuase him pain remember in the begining how they said to cuase him pain not to kill him

 

So how they planned to get Rand released then? Nah. I think the whole thing was planned from get-go with Semi being sacrificial lamb. However for that to work Rand would have to have SOME way to get free of Semi. One power doesn't work so that leaves...TP! Which also attaches Rand to DO and starts to corrupt(it will be real pain for him to ignore that one. Remember it's lot more seductive than OP. Rand only could avoid it because he had CK to counter-lure him. What now without CK?).

 

I dont think the DO inteneded for Rand to tap that source. The orders for Rand to the forsaken was they can not kill him, but capturing is another thing to them. The one who captures  the Dragon Reborn will ahve his power as well. I also think that Semi was pissed at Rand.

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when rand got hold of the true power lews therin screamed that it was from HIM!. That him is shaitan. Shaitan gives the true power to his followers. This case moridin. when semi was causing rand pain, moridin also felt pain. as a result because of his link with moridin rand was able to use the true power.

 

 

now why would shaitan allow rand to use the true power? first to corrupt rand. second to punish semirhage for disobeying direct orders to take rand and indulging in some free torture time. and lastly moridin was feeling the pain as well thorough the bond.

 

 

it's really that simple

 

 

 

 

 

and finally i would seriously laugh seriously laugh in disgust if the dark one can be killed. after all the times robert jordan told us that releasing the dark one from his prison will lead to the end, it would make a complete mockery if humans can kill shaitan. that would be a complete joke

 

 

i swear that would be beyond pathetic.

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when rand got hold of the true power lews therin screamed that it was from HIM!. That him is shaitan. Shaitan gives the true power to his followers. This case moridin. when semi was causing rand pain, moridin also felt pain. as a result because of his link with moridin rand was able to use the true power.

 

 

now why would shaitan allow rand to use the true power? first to corrupt rand. second to punish semirhage for disobeying direct orders to take rand and indulging in some free torture time. and lastly moridin was feeling the pain as well thorough the bond.

 

 

it's really that simple

 

 

 

 

 

and finally i would seriously laugh seriously laugh in disgust if the dark one can be killed. after all the times robert jordan told us that releasing the dark one from his prison will lead to the end, it would make a complete mockery if humans can kill shaitan. that would be a complete joke

 

 

i swear that would be beyond pathetic.

 

 

LTT didn't say it was from him, he said it WAS HIM... Like funneling a part of the Dark One through you... That is probably why Moridin uses it and not the One Power. I think that every time the TP is used, it weakens the sealsand allows the DO to come that much closer to freedom... The others wernt using it, so Moridin was given full exclusive access and wields it whenever he can.

 

Saa do not instantly appear in your eyes after one use. Its natural to assume that each of the forsaken has held it at least once, but decided the cost was too high. I think if Rand uses it more, the Saa will appear, and cause his blindness...

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A few people have mentioned about him 'killing' the Dark One. I personally don't think that is possible, as with Light you need Shadow, and the whole yin-yang philosophy which seems to run parallel to most themes in the book means that something has to stand opposed, or at least be there in opposition to, the Light.

 

What I think this Dragon will do, is seal the Dark One away to such an extent that he won't be able to touch the world at all. In the AoL they hadn't heard of the Dark One and life was idyllic, and I think that will be Rand's 'job' in this age. Then of course comes LTT to seal up the Bore - though I think that there is another Dragon before LTT as....

 

....Anyone know if LTT talks about there being a 3rd Dragon? I seem to remember him (LTT) saying something about having two crazy people in his head, which implies that theres a 3rd Dragon.

 

Disclaimer - I haven't read the whole thread, apologies if I repeat anything.

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LTT being a facet of Rand's personality doesn't make everything he says correct. Just because he thinks that the TP is the DO doesn't make it so. Just like with the 3 oaths, you can speak what you *believe" to be true even if in fact it is not.

 

I do not believe that the TP is the DO. I do not believe that the DO gave Rand permission to wield it.

What I think is that Rand in desperation reached to anything he could to stop himself and found his link with Moridin. Rand compares that link with his links to Mat and Perrin - I think if he were to try hard enough in desperation, he could actually communicate with them via that link. Drawing the TP via Moridin was the same.

 

What I think is that the DO's prison in the AoL was an intact bubble of the TP. Lanfear drilled the bore in it to reach that power. How then was the prison created? If you refer back to Herrod Fel he speculates that it was created whole. Not created with the bore and the patch. Somewhere in the wheel it must have been created whole. One of the concepts of WOT is the distortion of information over time and distance. Isn't it possible that a past Dragon (even Rand) had created the prison whole and his tale was changed over time (myths fading to legends and so forth) and that he is refered to as the Creator? Maybe in the "beginning" the creator did seal him up, but I find that unlikely as there are no beginnings or endings to the turning of the wheel. I'm not entirely certain a creator being exists in WoT. How would that factor in? What evidence have we seen of that? The Light refers to human nature being inherently good, I do not think it refers to some father-like being swooping in to save the day. The balance is between the Light of creating life and love against the Dark of selfishness and deceit. Death doesn't even enter into it. Not in a culture that believes in reincarnation.

 

What I think will happen is that Rand will have to break the seals, then will seal the DO up within his bubble of the TP. He will do this similarly to how he "cleansed" Saidin. Maybe Aviendha and Elayne will link with him to wield Callandor. Elayne will go into labor and his blood (offspring) on the rocks of Shayol Ghul will save men from the Shadow. Rand will need a final reminder of why he must fight and win - their babies will provide that reminder which will allow them all to do what must be done to win. He will, in desperation, tap the TP via Moridin again to seal up the DO and assimilate Moridin in the process. I've always thought that Ish-idin could be turned back to the light. Then he will "die". Whether he then takes Morridin's body I don't know. But he will fake his death with help from Alivia. Giving the scene in which Min, Elayne, and Aviendha will be in the boat with his body. To live he must die, right? So he will fake his death and go on to live quite happily with his ladies and a mess of children. We know he will have them from Min's viewing of Aviendha, explaining a possibilty of a life after the LB, if he wins and the pattern continues. Perhaps he and Aviendha's children (Ahem - of the Dragon) will be the forebearers of the Da'Shain Aiel. And his children with Elayne will be the reason that the Andoran royal line have Aiel coloring. What? It is a wheel - right? :)

 

I have not meandered through the whole thread here, so if someone else has mentioned this idea - I obviously concur.

 

 

 

 

 

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I like your theory angela, it's just the TP that gets me. I believe that once (if) the DO figures out what's going on, the game's all over. At least concerning the TP.

 

But a well thought out theory, to be sure.

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....Anyone know if LTT talks about there being a 3rd Dragon? I seem to remember him (LTT) saying something about having two crazy people in his head, which implies that theres a 3rd Dragon.

 

Disclaimer - I haven't read the whole thread, apologies if I repeat anything.

 

While there have been many Dragon incarnations during the turning of the Wheel of Time, what I think you're referring to here is the link with Moridin.

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A few people have mentioned about him 'killing' the Dark One. I personally don't think that is possible, as with Light you need Shadow, and the whole yin-yang philosophy which seems to run parallel to most themes in the book means that something has to stand opposed, or at least be there in opposition to, the Light.

 

I seriously think something we know to be true will be revealed false. When Rand was tapping the Eye, there was someone speaking in ALL CAPS and most assumed it to be the Creator.

 

Maybe it was, maybe not. But we've not actually seen this "Light" think you refer to. We've seen the agent of the Dark, the DO himself, but everything else you're referring to as "The Light" but that's charactarized by a lack of Dark.

 

We don't KNOW there's a Creator. Everyone assumes it to be the case and mythos does not, itself, provide proof.

 

....Anyone know if LTT talks about there being a 3rd Dragon? I seem to remember him (LTT) saying something about having two crazy people in his head, which implies that theres a 3rd Dragon.

 

The Third Dragon theory has been more or less debunked. The person in his head has become more and more clear and has been positively identified as Moridin.

 

Re: Dark One has to give access to the True Power; this is not exactly true. Or, more specifically, perhaps the act of channelling it requires the DO's access, but sensing it and even tapping it does not. Mierien and Beidoman sensed the TP and tapped it, releasing the Dark One.

 

So, the TP itself isn't specifically controlled by the DO. ACCESS to it is, but this might speak to the nature of the Seventh Age or First Age seals. Perhaps the TP exists in the realm of the DO, but can only be accessed through a gate or weakness in the Pattern that the DO is gatekeeper of.

 

I specifically think Rand WAS granted access to the TP in that scene; the face of the man he doesn't recognize (and he DOES recognize Moridin) seemed to be an acknowledgement of some sorts but I think there MIGHT be other ways to tap the power independant of the DO... maybe. :P

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i apologise if this has already been asked and answered but reading 27 pages of posts is a bit too much to ask at 2 in the morning.

 

rand's new sword...i have heard it referred to as Justice...rand remembers it from somewhere, he has seen it in his own lifetime, can anyone enlighten me as to when and where? it is supposed to be extremely suitable for him, but had been lost or hidden until found in that (attic/basement)

where could he have seen it and how would he know what it was if he had?

 

again i apologise for any errors, it is 2am and my brain is melting

thanks

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if you would remember that the TP is 10 times as addictive as Saidin so Rand was just lulled in to the seduction by the TP

 

Rand towards the end was getting all of Lewes Therin memory so after Rand loses the Voice of Lewes Therin will he keep the memory?

 

i have a weird theory Lewes said that the reason that saidin was tainted because they touched it to the prison and they had to but shouldn't but what if the reason that rand is supposed to reseal the dark one is because of his connection with Moridin allows him to use TP to touch the dark one seal as is needed without a counter stroke and truesource cleansed

 

Ps sorry for the spealing errors  

 

 

 

*sigh*  It was never Lt's voice.  It was a coping mechanism of Rands ego/subconcious.  He did not LOSE anything, he accepted what he really was.  SO yes, the memories will still be there.

 

I completely agree with the above post--the memories are real (just as with Matt and the other folks in the Two Rivers), but the voice was never real.  It was a symptom of Rand's crazies.

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Shesh, this whole Semirhage thing was really forced. I know Rand said not to torture her, but couldn't they have stilled her atleast? And Rand could have cut her off from the DO while they were at it. Leaving her like that just to have her put that collar around Rand practically screams plot device. It's the one thing apart from the Hinderstrap thingy, which was just too ridiculous, which really bugged me in the book.

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i apologise if this has already been asked and answered but reading 27 pages of posts is a bit too much to ask at 2 in the morning.

 

rand's new sword...i have heard it referred to as Justice...rand remembers it from somewhere, he has seen it in his own lifetime, can anyone enlighten me as to when and where? it is supposed to be extremely suitable for him, but had been lost or hidden until found in that (attic/basement)

where could he have seen it and how would he know what it was if he had?

 

again i apologise for any errors, it is 2am and my brain is melting

thanks

He saw it when he saw Hawkwing when Mat had blown the Horn of Valere.

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True, but what's the point of granting Rand access to the True Power?

 

Wouldn't it serve the Dark One's purpose better for Rand to be captive of Semirhage with the Domination Band?  With that Band, presumably they could make Rand do whatever they want, including finding and breaking the seals holding the Dark One back (or at least holding him still to forcibly turn him to the Shadow with the 13 Dreadlords/Fades)

 

Sure it would serve the DO's purpose to have Rand captive.  But there was a lot more going on in that scene.

 

The DO sent Shaidar Haran to offer Semirhage one last chance to do what she had been ordered to do - capture Rand and return him to Shayol Ghul.

 

She did half the job.  She captured him and then delayed to have some personal playtime.  In the process of that, due to the link with Moridin, she was causing Moridin as much pain as she was causing Rand.

 

She flat blew it.  You don't blow last chances with the DO and survive.

 

There will be more opportunities to capture Rand, but there can be NO more opportunities for anyone to thumb their nose at the DO's direct orders.

 

I disagree.  I don't think that the DO wants Rand captured (see Lord of Chaos).  Rather, I see this as the classic retelling of Return of the Jedi, all the way down to the missing hand.  Plan A for the DO, just like the Emperor, is that Rand joins the Dark Side, and in order to show Rand why the Dark Side is preferable, he had to let Semirhage try and collar him and render him powerless.  At that point, Rand had no other option but to draw on the TP, and rely upon the DO.  We've known since DAY 1 that the DO has wanted the Dragon by his side, his Naeblis.  We saw before Veins of Gold (LOVED that chapter btw) that Plan A seemed to be working.  tGS does a fine job of weaviing in not just the physical terror involved with the DO (the bubbles of evil, etc.), but of showing us that the DO is also the master manipulator and source of pscyhological torture. 

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The True Power IMHO is actually the female and male powers together.  I believe the creator and the dark one use this power because they are not bound to the female/male sides of the power being deities in the book.

 

I think that the CK were actually a stepping stone to a man or a woman being strong enough to channel the True power unaided.  In that light, I believe Nynaeve will be next to be able to use this power.  

 

The dark one of course was alerted to the fact that the true power was accessed by Lanfear.  Question is, what in the hell did she do back in the AOL to drill the hole.?

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Why does everyone think that the DO gave Rand the TP? I think that it was completely accidental, via the link to moridin. Could it be advantageous? yes. But as they say, I would rather be lucky than good.

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Why does everyone think that the DO gave Rand the TP? I think that it was completely accidental, via the link to moridin. Could it be advantageous? yes. But as they say, I would rather be lucky than good.

 

Yeah, I agree here.  I think we are giving the DO too much credit.  The channeling of the TP through Moridin is most likely luck, and also a reinforcement of the link between Moridin and Rand, opening up a whole smattering of possibilities of how that link will be used to fight the DO.

 

My guess is that the TP will be used to lock up the DO, channeling through Moridin.  Didn't LTT say the problem of the bore was that only saidin was used to create the seal?

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Was Rand justified in being angry/exiling Cadsuane?

 

I believe that yes he was. I think he was more angry that Min was hurt as a result of her not guarding them. She mentions that one of the reasons she kept them near was to study them. But he was also correct in being angry that the Last Battle could have been lost because of it. I don't really buy her excuse that she protected it the best that she could. Did she invert the weaves? Did she really expect a simple trap to trick a Forsaken? Seriously? The collars should have been somewhere only she knew about (could have traveled and hid them anywhere). There were probably several other things she could have done. She was pretty blase about something so dangerous, and so overconfident that she is the Greatest Woman Ever.

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The dark one would want rand to get hooked on the true power, its a drug far more addictive than the one power and only the dark one can give it to you.

 

Anmways we know that around shayol gul theres a "thinness" in the pattern that allowed the bore to be drilled in the first place. Maybe rand will fix the pattern completely preventing the dark one from EVER being freed. The pattern was thin before the bore so we have to assume for whatever reason in the normal turnings of the wheel its always so. This would give rand a way to beat the dark one for good, prove moridin wrong, and make rands incarnation of the champion of light more important than the others.

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The dark one would want rand to get hooked on the true power, its a drug far more addictive than the one power and only the dark one can give it to you.

 

I bet the DO would rather, instead, just have Rand been captured by Semi, which was what she was going to do.  Once in captivity, he can do all he wants with the TP to Rand.

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