Prologue, Chap. 1-50, Epilogue

[bowlwoman]

The whole resetting village thing.  That was just pointless.

 

What?  So you didn't like zombie Groundhog Day reenactment?  :D 

[madpoet]

Hehe, no.  Honestly it bothered me because Brandon keeps talking about how there's so much material, and he could never fit it into 2 books let alone 1.  But then we have scenes like that which are a complete waste of space.

[Alanna]

I'm sure we will see the Perrin/Galad meeting in the next book (along with the Mat teasers, which is him arriving in Caemyln). Sanderson chose to focus on two arcs in this book, Egwene and Rand, and to finish them through. And timeline-wise, that obviously put those storylines a bit ahead of Mat and Perrin. He could've chosen to keep everything parallel, in terms of time, but that probably would've meant ending everything sooner - i.e., not wrapping up Egwene's and Rand's storylines as he did. Personally, I'm glad that he chose to do things this way; it made everything so much more complete. And now we have a bit of an idea of what to see from Mat and Perrin in the next book.

[sheikh chilli]

and what an absolute body blow the shadow has taken in this book. I suspect like mr micaber said earlier if you are elan morin tedronai or shaitan himself you would pissed off by the turn of events.

 

 

It's official, So near yet so far.....the story of the shadow so far. if i were barid bel maidar i would seriously consider hunting down elan morin. Ishy is so overrated and useless

 

 

an absolute body blow.

[jharaldson]

Speaking of pointless scenes it seems to me that with Verin turining over the list of all known black sisters the fact that Yukuri, Pevara, ect.... have had a 4 book story arc as Black Ajah hunters has turned dramatically pointless. 

[Mr. Micawber]

I personally suspect that one third of the Last Battle was already fought, and that it was in Rand's mind. Kudos to people who believed that the Last Battle would represent a choice Rand would have to make.

 

I think that the Pattern, probably through ta'veren, could prevent Elan Morin from ending the world in a flash of Balefire.

 

But, I rather think that by corrupting Rand, Elan Morin and Shaidar Haran could have successfully made *him* obliterate reality. Which is, after all, what the Shadow's after (and I absolutely love the chapter where Elan Morin demonstrates he's the only sane Forsaken; the rest are as childish as Verin says, all thinking there will be a world *left* to rule).

 

Now there's only one hope left for the Shadow, and that's to refight the First War. Hopefully, this will bring out the villain who, for me, is both the only one who's lost serious cred and the only one whose reason for joining the Dark Side is compelling. Since, if we follow LTT's commentary closely, we find that Demandred joined because Lews Therin took everything away from him, including the love of his life. I'm sure that the only people who knew about that were Barid and Lews himself. When we realize this, it becomes overwhelmingly obvious why Demandred takes no pleasure in anything and why his hatred makes that of the other Chosen pale in comparison.

 

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Elan Morin successfully kills Rand, only to have *Demandred* Balefire Elan Morin in an attempt to bring Rand back so that he could kill him. This would have the benefit of ending Rand's link to Elan.

 

(I think someone else has suggested that Logain does this, but I rather think Logain's glory will come from leading the Light against Alviarin and Taim in the Black Tower. By the way, does anyone else think that a. Shaidar Haran or Mesaana ordered the BA fleeing the Purge to go to Taim and that b. something truly awful is happening to Myrelle, Theodrin, and sadly, Pevara and Tarna?)

 

And jharaldson,

 

The story arc was only pointless in a way. It was definitely way over drawn out, but what it gave us was a window into the collapsing Tower, making Egwene's eventual promotion pretty well characterized, since she manages to really impress Saerin, Yukiri and Seaine, along with Adelorna. It *also* gave us Pevara, who as I said above will likely be the source of POV material in the coming Black Tower throw down.

 

Oh, and it demonstrated conclusively one other thing, that Verin herself was unsure of. Namely, that the oaths could be successfully removed.

[Mr. Micawber]

and what an absolute body blow the shadow has taken in this book. I suspect like mr micaber said earlier if you are elan morin tedronai or shaitan himself you would pissed off by the turn of events.

 

 

It's official, So near yet so far.....the story of the shadow so far. if i were barid bel maidar i would seriously consider hunting down elan morin. Ishy is so overrated and useless

 

 

an absolute body blow.

 

What's great is that this book destroyed *both* of Elan Morin and the Big Guy Band's Greatest Hits: the Black Ajah, and the corruption of Rand Al'Thor.

[blackjon]

well, it was obvious that Ishy knew that the world would end when the DO won, all the titles of his books and the refelctions of LTT over the course of things showed it.

 

nice to get final comfirmation though. the comments about selfishness being the tool the Great Lord uses is also genious and makes sense. again further improving my views of IShy. after all, he probably believes even a little that it would be best for everyone to be free of the wheel, even if that meant annihilation.

how benevolent of him  :D

[mnwhiterose]

What was the point of Verin telling Mat to wait 30 days before leaving if she knew she was going to die before then? This is the only thing that seemed off for me, other than the Bloody Knives.

[Mr. Micawber]

What was the point of Verin telling Mat to wait 30 days before leaving if she knew she was going to die before then? This is the only thing that seemed off for me, other than the Bloody Knives.

 

Because *if* Verin could use the Oath Rod to remove her Oaths to the Big Guy, then she'd come back. *However* she believes that to be, as she tells Egwene, enormously unlikely.

 

My guess is that you pretty much have to be forced into reswearing; the new trinity of Oaths probably come with some kind of self-defense mechanism that prevent you from going yourself and removing them.

 

Otherwise we'd probably have seen moles in the Black Ajah before. Yet apparently before Verin this has never happened, indicating that Elan Morin probably designed everything *very* carefully (he was after all the founder of the BA)

[Jaric Mar Tedronai]

Finished my second read through yesterday, as I acquired the book Saturday, so I  decided not to post anything until I took some time to really think it through. I think it is important for me to re read and then spend a day pondering, as it helps me digest a bit more.

 

While the book was fast paced, I didn't like how the pov's kept jumping around, sometimes after only a few pages. RJ usually dedicated two or three chapters (at least) in a row to one character, and the book felt a little bit off because of that. Also, as everyone has said, Mat was different. BS tried to cover that in a way by having Talmanes say he had been different since Tuon married him, but it was more than that.

 

I think Laras could be Messaana. Ridicule if you must, but I was right about Verin for years, and it would be perfect for her. She has a constant stream of novices under her care, and could easily be corrupting them. I don't think she cares much about the politics of the hall and the amyrlin, more just to keep an eye on things, and she could definitely do it from there. Her little compartment under the kitchen gave me the idea, and no one would think to make her swear the oath rod.

 

This book gave me a bit of grudging respect for Eggs, and she possibly could be off my 5 person hate list. Faile, Gawyn, and Cads, are still there tho, and Elaida is obv. gonzo. Her scene where shes killing to'raken reminded me of Rand's "I am the storm!" scene as well.

 

Feel like Rand's demand of giving the borderland rulers a chance to 'return with honor' was just a shortcut to ending that plotline, and they will ride with Lan at the gap, while Rand takes his forces (aiel, illian, tear, cairhein, etc) through the blight to shayol ghul. I haven't yet decided where the horn will be used. Mat and Perrin will need to be with Rand, obviously, to twist the pattern at Shayol Ghul.

 

 

Since Rand's revelation on Dragonmount, I think he will apologize to Tam, Cads, and basically everyone, and become human again. I also think that they will defeat the Seanchan somehow, or Fortuona will withdraw in an attempt to secure the mainland, after Tarmon Gai'don. They will probably move against Illian and Tear once the armies travel to the blight, however, and who knows what could happen there.

 

I also noticed that twice when Faile was healed, she doesn't jerk or anything, she barely shivers. I think there is something going on there, and am determined to figure it out. Mark my words, something is amiss. Also, she is a tramp for that nonsense over Rolan. I liked him as a character, but the way the plot was is too slimy for me. I didn't like that scene.

 

I think the showdown at the Black Tower will come because Rand found out something about Taim, and I think Taim has the fat-man angreal from LoC. Also, I wonder why the red sisters and the embassy from Salidar has not returned. I think these may be what Rand discovers. Myrelle, for certain, has a role to play in passing Lan's bond, so we have not seen the last of her. Faolin and Theodrin have been written too much into Eggy's plotline to just up and vanish as well.

 

The added part about the Bloodknives was kind of cool, those rings almost give them Myrddraal like powers. 4 are still alive, and they will cause some nonsense in the few days they have to live. After all, most of Eggy's last pov's was in the day or 2 after the Seanchan raid, and Tuon tells us they have several days to live. I doubt they activated the rings until they had arrived, since they arrived in the night, so they could still cause trouble. It was also an interesting lead in as to what other ter'angreal the Seanchan have.

 

In regards to Rand attempting to kill Shai'tan, (BBHN right Mr Ares?) it reminds me of Raistlin Majere's plot to enter the abyss, bait Takhisis, and then kill her in the world in the Dragonlance Twin's trilogy. I believe Rand will need to step outside the pattern to fight him, and then draw him inside the pattern in order to kill him. I think the space outside the pattern (DO's prison) does not have rules the way the real world does, and in order for something to be killed it must be in a place where death is possible.

 

These are just some observations, opinions, and thoughts on the book and what I think is to come. Feel free to quote, agree or disagree, and ask questions.

[Mr. Micawber]

I think that the most likely explanation is that Rand has to use the True Power in some capacity, whether to step outside the Pattern as you suggest or whatever, because it's the only option other than Saidin, and in a way, it's not part of the Pattern, since it's part of the Big Guy, who's outside the Pattern.

 

Btw Jaric, I've thought since ACOS that either Taim or Demandred has the Fat Man.

 

I do hope it's Taim, because I want to see Logain with his two sisters linked versus Taim with the Fat Man. That ought to be an amazing fight, up there with stuff from TDR or TSR or FOH.

[Dr. Love]

I thought Verin's big reveal to Egwene was poorly done ... it seemed kinda fanfic to me.

 

Your shirt is green! lol just kidding I'm black ajah!

 

Other than that, I thought the vast majority of Rand's stuff was rather well done, with a few exceptions. The whole nuking Graendal thing didn't seem very Rand ... how he sent the person to be compelled and the questions ... just didn't seem very Rand, no matter how he had changed.

 

I did like Rand speaking about LTT's memories as his own. I also liked the usage of plurals and creepy level of familiarity. Mat, didn't care for, don't think he needed to be in the book. He seemed like a Perrin-lite with all the worrying about Tuon. Thank God it didn't turn into another first few chapters of A Crown of Swords. :) Perrin seemed irrelevant too.

 

I liked Tam's scene and the end, I thought those were well done. All of Egwene's stuff was well done and I liked her battle with the Seanchan, though I thought her dreams had something to do with a Seanchan woman helping her in the same context as the attacks on the WT? Maybe not.

 

Rand's meeting with Moridin seemed good for the most part. I did think it kind of forced that Moridin just reveals that Rand has to balefire Forsaken to prevent them from coming back. Yes, he's ta'veren but that seemed a little TOO convenient. Speaking of Rand, it took me by surprise completely that he would be able to tap into the TP, and that chapter will be one of my favorites of the series I am sure.

 

After that a lot of people talk about a dark aura around him, and he seems to think he can will the Pattern to do things for him. A lot of people start reacting very differently to his demands after that, especially when they notice the darkness. Tuon, in particular, seemed very compelled to make an alliance with him, to do anything to please him.

 

Should I construe this as him using the TP, being able to weave the pattern itself, or something else?

[Mr. Micawber]

The darkness is a result of the True Power. We've seen this effect referenced before.

 

And I believe that the scene with Tuon, well, we're given her POV and it seems really familiar to Nynaeve's from TSR. I'd say that CrazyRand's abilities in Compulsion are limited, but that he was almost certainly using it on her.

 

However, if anyone has the training and the willpower to beat off Compulsion, it's Tiny McPintsize, may she live forever.

[madpoet]

I totally agree that Laras is Messena.

[sheikh chilli]

and what an absolute body blow the shadow has taken in this book. I suspect like mr micaber said earlier if you are elan morin tedronai or shaitan himself you would pissed off by the turn of events.

 

 

It's official, So near yet so far.....the story of the shadow so far. if i were barid bel maidar i would seriously consider hunting down elan morin. Ishy is so overrated and useless

 

 

an absolute body blow.

 

 

 

What's great is that this book destroyed *both* of Elan Morin and the Big Guy Band's Greatest Hits: the Black Ajah, and the corruption of Rand Al'Thor.

 

it was shocking to see so many black ajah! by the way i too kinda worry for the aes sedai at the black tower. i like pevara and tarna

[ohaitharguiz]

My thoughts on the book. (Damned thing made me stay up until 4:30 with class at 9.) Anyways, on with my ideas.

 

Rand - Really liked the storyline with Rand, he really did seem like an evil dude. His redemption, his fits of rage, I really liked all of them. I thought his story line was put together extremely well.

 

Egwene - I have always disliked her as a character, but her parts were also very well done. However, I hope there is less of her in the next book. I thoroughly enjoyed her storyline, but I really want some others to get the spotlight (behind Rand's, of course).

 

Min - I have heard some complaints about her in the past, but I actually enjoyed her more in this book than I did in any of the others.

 

Those two plot lines, the main ones in the book, were very very fun to read.

 

Now for a few (minor) cons. In word count, they will outnumber my Pros, but I LOVED the book, and the cons are far far far beneath the good stuff. Even though I am saying some negative things about them, there isn't really a part that i just didn't like.

 

Mat - I can't really pin it down, but I didn't emjoy him as much. He was my favorite character in KoD. Perhaps it was just how little he was in the story. I think he and The Princess Formerly Known as Tuon are hilarious together, and I hope we get some more of that in the next two novels.

 

Aviendha - Kind of bland storyline imo. To me it seemed like she was made out to be a dull barbarian. Again, a short amount of time working with her may have done this.

 

Elayne - WASN'T EVEN IN THE BOOK!!!!!! I want a her/morgase/Rand reunion and a big party thrown :P I know people don't like her (I do enjoy her, actually, but that is beside the point), but I wish she had had some role in the book, apart from being in others thoughts.

 

Perrin - Never enjoyed this storyline, hasn't really changed. Perrin: "Me love faile." Faile: "I'm gonna be a jealous ***** now." Perrin: "What!?" Of course, this is exaggeration, but it is just how i have always seen it.

 

I probably had a few other things to say, but that is my general overview (literally just finished.)

 

Summary: GREAT book, I sat here for hours reading it. I absolutely loved it. I hate to voice any complaints at all, being that i had such a good time reading it, but I think it would be an injustice to Mr. Sanderson not to do it, however unlikely it is that he reads this. I would like to extend my sincere gratitude to Mr. Sanderson for writing a fantastic book that really stuck to what the WoT was about. Finishing what was to be someone's Magnum Opus, with millions of readers watching, must have been a daunting task, and he conquered it admirably. Carry this on into the next two books, and I think you will have quite a few more adoring fans. And one last note, get the next book out quickly, or the metaphorical dragonmount (me, of course :)) will fall down upon you.

[Beren]

About Graendal --

 

From LoC Ch. 6: Graendal's PoV

If Al'Thor ever discovered her, she simply would abandon everything and re-establish herself elsewhere--or else surrender before he could strike a blow then begin convincing him that she was indispensable.

[Greg]

I loved the book, and think that it may have supplanted LoC as my favourite in the series.

 

And at least for now, I'm willing to put the Mat and Aviendah thing off until the next book. There was too little of them to judge.

[Lord of the Morning]

GREAT book, one of the best of the series, that scene when semirhage escaped was so freaking intense, i had to put the book down and take a walk to clear my head.

 

Few questions though,

 

What exactly is Rand going to do about the Black Tower?  I always believed that would be the big finale to ToM, but not even a mention of Taim?  You'd think also that Elaida would've been alot more agitated over Tarna's abondonment.  (On a side note, loved Elaida's end, rivals Galina's and Liandrins for sure)  Guess we'll have to wait and see what's to be done about the BT.

 

Does rand's laughter at the end count as cadsuane's teaching?  It was more a Lews Therin thing IMO.

 

Where exactly was Logain?  He was last seen working as an emissary for rand to the sea folk and the Seanchan, but he wasn't even mentioned in this book.  You'd think an ally as powerful as Logain would've been kept around, he had every other bloody asha'man he trusts with him.

 

Why was the Morgase/Galad reunion kept off screen?  That was the only perrin POV i was looking forward to, and it was completely skipped.  Big oversight IMO.

 

How did Moridin possibly think it was a good idea to inform rand of a) the forsaken reborn trick, and b) the balefire loophole?  seems kind of fishy that ishy would tell his mortal enemy the one way to defeat him. (sorry for the pun)

 

Why did Rand walk away after Tuon, scratch that, Fortuona told him no?  Did he really think he could force them to bow to him, (albeit almost worked)?  Didn't he go there to negotiate a peace treaty?

 

Why did rand marshal the domoni, and Tairens for TG but not the cairhienin or the illianers?  In fact he crippled the cairhienin by taking away their leadership.  Guess rand doesn't need short ppl at the last battle.

 

My heart bleeds for you, Rand Al'thor, hopefully you can find some peace and redemption before this is over.

[Trutino]

and what an absolute body blow the shadow has taken in this book. I suspect like mr micaber said earlier if you are elan morin tedronai or shaitan himself you would pissed off by the turn of events.

 

 

It's official, So near yet so far.....the story of the shadow so far. if i were barid bel maidar i would seriously consider hunting down elan morin. Ishy is so overrated and useless

 

 

an absolute body blow.

 

 

 

What's great is that this book destroyed *both* of Elan Morin and the Big Guy Band's Greatest Hits: the Black Ajah, and the corruption of Rand Al'Thor.

 

it was shocking to see so many black ajah! by the way i too kinda worry for the aes sedai at the black tower. i like pevara and tarna

 

I agree that this was a body blow but can't help thinking that this is only temporary. Maybe I've seen Star Wars too many times or maybe I just can't imagine that they'd end both of the first two books of this trilogy with a victory for the light. I've read several times quotes of RJ saying that the Shadow is winning and that things are dire. With all this in mind, what might a dark Towers of Midnight leading into the last battle in the last book look like? Moiraine rescued, perhaps, but bad things with the Black Tower? Pevara? Seanchan? Eighty Black Ajah on the run to become dreadlords? Other ideas?

[DemandredFO]

I'm thinking the missing Embassey and the Reds has something to do with the Black Tower being rent in Blood and Fire.  Whatever the reason, Egwene was an idiot for taking oaths on the Binder.  If the seanchan attack again, which I think they will, she will have to be like all those other foolish Aes Sedai and put herself and her warder, in danger before she can fight, because she thinks the seanchan are evil but not Shadowspawn.  The bitch still thinks that the AS will lead and everyone need follow THEM.  The two Niro's(Eliada and Egwene) fiddled while Rome burned.  The one who was forced to do it all byself couldn't trust his proported allies because the were all trying to manipulate.  He almost destroyed himself in the effort and all see wants isto lead him.  She takes a few steps forward and then a mile back.

 

One thing more, the body blows team shadow might or might not have taken are meaningless if the floors melt and destroy people or food spoils or no direct sunlight.

[Stevros]

 

I liked Tam's scene and the end, I thought those were well done. All of Egwene's stuff was well done and I liked her battle with the Seanchan, though I thought her dreams had something to do with a Seanchan woman helping her in the same context as the attacks on the WT? Maybe not.

 

 

She had two adjacent ones (3 actually but the other is about Mat) one about her nearly falling off a cliff and a Seanchan woman helping her; and the other about a attack on the WT with the lamp and ravens, it is only when she wakes that she puts the two together and is confused. I don't that the Seanchan helping her has happened yet, but it suggests that it is not a dammae or sul'dam as the Seanchan woman carries a sword, dunno who it is yet?

[sheikh chilli]

GREAT book, one of the best of the series, that scene when semirhage escaped was so freaking intense, i had to put the book down and take a walk to clear my head.

 

Few questions though,

 

What exactly is Rand going to do about the Black Tower?  I always believed that would be the big finale to ToM, but not even a mention of Taim?  You'd think also that Elaida would've been alot more agitated over Tarna's abondonment.  (On a side note, loved Elaida's end, rivals Galina's and Liandrins for sure)  Guess we'll have to wait and see what's to be done about the BT.

 

Does rand's laughter at the end count as cadsuane's teaching?  It was more a Lews Therin thing IMO.

 

Where exactly was Logain?  He was last seen working as an emissary for rand to the sea folk and the Seanchan, but he wasn't even mentioned in this book.  You'd think an ally as powerful as Logain would've been kept around, he had every other bloody asha'man he trusts with him.

 

Why was the Morgase/Galad reunion kept off screen?  That was the only perrin POV i was looking forward to, and it was completely skipped.  Big oversight IMO.

 

How did Moridin possibly think it was a good idea to inform rand of a) the forsaken reborn trick, and b) the balefire loophole?  seems kind of fishy that ishy would tell his mortal enemy the one way to defeat him. (sorry for the pun)

 

Why did Rand walk away after Tuon, scratch that, Fortuona told him no?  Did he really think he could force them to bow to him, (albeit almost worked)?  Didn't he go there to negotiate a peace treaty?

 

Why did rand marshal the domoni, and Tairens for TG but not the cairhienin or the illianers?  In fact he crippled the cairhienin by taking away their leadership.  Guess rand doesn't need short ppl at the last battle.

 

My heart bleeds for you, Rand Al'thor, hopefully you can find some peace and redemption before this is over.

 

 

destroying that choedan kal was frankly another thing i didnt understand. it was an ace in the hole that rand had. destroying it felt like taking out your nuclear weapon in todays world

[sheikh chilli]

I'm thinking the missing Embassey and the Reds has something to do with the Black Tower being rent in Blood and Fire.  Whatever the reason, Egwene was an idiot for taking oaths on the Binder.  If the seanchan attack again, which I think they will, she will have to be like all those other foolish Aes Sedai and put herself and her warder, in danger before she can fight, because she thinks the seanchan are evil but not Shadowspawn.  The bitch still thinks that the AS will lead and everyone need follow THEM.  The two Niro's(Eliada and Egwene) fiddled while Rome burned.  The one who was forced to do it all byself couldn't trust his proported allies because the were all trying to manipulate.  He almost destroyed himself in the effort and all see wants isto lead him.  She takes a few steps forward and then a mile back.

 

One thing more, the body blows team shadow might or might not have taken are meaningless if the floors melt and destroy people or food spoils or no direct sunlight.

 

 

the aes sedai are meant to lead. just like in the age of legends. only this time there is no men in their midst to complete the circie. in case you never heard lews therin telamon was an aes sedai as well.

 

 

as for egwene she was the highlight of the book. she did everything to salvage the white tower. and she will be a great amyrlin. far greater leader than rand al thor i personally believe

 

 

as for the bodyblows, they are massive blows and you cannot deny it. the black ajah have been cast aside, forsaken killed yet again and rand is laughing once more.

 

 

seriously the shadow have been beaten back once again. it just keeps happening. i was joking earlier with a friend about why choedan kal was destroyed and he said ' perhaps rand felt so bad for the shadow he decided to destroy it to keep it a level playing field