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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Prologue, Chap. 1-50, Epilogue


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Sheikh, why do you respond to anyone.  Your love of reading certain characters is irrational, not the fact that you like their POVs.  Just the fact that you see them as doing no wrong.

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I think they made a point of stating several times in the books that the CK were too powerful and that no one should have that much power. Even LTT thought that no one should have it. It was becoming obvious that Rand had lost his fear of it and was gaining some sort of dependency on it ... possibly an addiction to Saidin.

 

Also, Cadsuane commented that she thought the whole effort with Sem was to get the CK back to Rand. The times he used it, he resorted to balefire, which the DO wants unleashed on his behalf. I think with the unification between LTT and Rand he probably realized that the way to win wasn't with the CK and that he couldn't trust himself with it, just like he couldn't trust himself with Callandor.

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Also someone pointed out in the favorite chapter thread, now the Seanchan have Eliada they now have someone who has the ability to travel. And I can't see her holding out that long so the Seanchan may soon have traveling.

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Sheikh chilli ar eyou serious?

 

Did you even see what the power of the CK was doing to Rand?

 

Did you think about the fact that Rand left the Domani to starve when all their food spoiled?

 

Rand won a great victory as did Egwene, but it was not the war and they are still down in the count.

 

There is still a time where Perrin must be there or something terrible will happen to Rand.

 

Rand still does not know how to seal the DO away for good though he is getting some clues now.

 

Mazrim Taim and the Black Tower are doing who knows what in Rand's absence and we have yet to see that resolved. Remember that they have many many more channelers than the WT so if even 75% of them go over to the DO, willingly or unwillingly, Rand's forces are in serious trouble.

 

Rand has still not made peace with the Seanchan and with the recent attack on the WT it seems less and less likely.

 

I will say this much, I think the DO's forces are not in as great a position as they had been at the start of the book, but they have not been hit as hard as they could have. Ishy's false prophecies are still believed by the Seanchan for one thing. We STILL have not seen Demandred and he has said that his rule is secure and they will be read. The Aiel are at odds with Rand over the way he has been treating them though they are still following him. Over half of the BA escaped. There were close to 200 and I believe the book said about 110 escaped. Mesaana is almost certainly still in the tower. Graendal may not be dead. Rand has touched the TP thus opening him to its addiction. He won't work with the Sea Folk, instead making demands of them. Rand told Nynaeve he was basically abandoning Lan and using him as a distraction. I think the Light is in almost as bad a position as it was at the start of the book, but there is hope now. At the start of this book hope was almost gone. It was nonexistent about halfway through the book. The WT is whole, yes, but Mesaana is sure to do something. Rand just destroyed the CK, but I would not be surprised to see a showdown with some male channelers after he used that much Saidin. I mean, that had to be visible to any male channeler across Randland.

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1) The Essanik Cycle. Tuon mentioned it during her meeting with Rand. It sounded like their version of The Karaethon Cycle, but we know that the Seanchan still call it the Karaethon Cycle from previous encounters with them. So perhaps this is a new set of prophecies? If not it's a bit of a slip

 

It seems rather a subsection of the Karaethon Cycle. That being said we know there are foretellings about the Dragon that arn't in the Karaethon Cycle--Elaida references them, and we even see Gitara Moroso give some.

 

 

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"Sword of light, three become one" prophecy... was that fullfilled in some metaphoric way at the end?  The whole light on Dragonmount looking like a gigantic "Sword of Light" I suppose?  Though not sure if Lews and Rand merging counts as "Three become One' unless it also got rid of Moridin in his head.  Just curious because it's a bit ambiguous.  Also Min's viewing of a black dagger around the one AS's head, (can't remember her name, sorry), do we know her to be Black Ajah?  Can't remember if she showed up on Egwene's list or not.

 

Also, where did it ever confirm that Rand's new sword is "Justice?" I was sure that a previous thread on these forums had basically ended with a "Yes, it's been confirmed," but it certainly never confirmed it that I saw.  Did I miss something stupidly obvious?

 

Was Rand, walking around with a cloak and staff in Ebou Dar at the end a fulfillment of the "beggar's prophecy," or do you think we'll see more of that?

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"Sword of light, three become one" prophecy... was that fullfilled in some metaphoric way at the end?  The whole light on Dragonmount looking like a gigantic "Sword of Light" I suppose?  Though not sure if Lews and Rand merging counts as "Three become One' unless it also got rid of Moridin in his head.  Just curious because it's a bit ambiguous.  

 

Min and Cadsuane talk about this prophesy and point us towards Callandor, which needs 3 people to operate correctly. I have no idea what that will entail but it didn't seem like RJ/BS were just trying to throw us off.

 

Edit: Chapter 48(pg.742-745) is the conversation.

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"Sword of light, three become one" prophecy... was that fullfilled in some metaphoric way at the end?  The whole light on Dragonmount looking like a gigantic "Sword of Light" I suppose?  Though not sure if Lews and Rand merging counts as "Three become One' unless it also got rid of Moridin in his head.  Just curious because it's a bit ambiguous.  

 

Min and Cadsuane talk about this prophesy and point us towards Callandor, which needs 3 people to operate correctly. I have no idea what that will entail but it didn't seem like RJ/BS were just trying to throw us off.

 

Edit: Chapter 48(pg.742-745) is the conversation.

 

Right, but in my experience with this series for almost 20 years now, when characters in the book think they know what a prophecy means, it generally turns out they're very, very wrong, and sometimes to detrimental effect.

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This is my first time posting, and I'm pretty sure visiting this site actually.  I apologize for any misspellings.

 

1. Mat's consistency - not a big issue.  I agree with some comments about "saidared", but really, we've never seen this boy in love before. I'd like to chalk any voicing issues up to Mat not knowing how to deal with a long distance relationship. I admit I dislike being too meta when reading.  

 

2.  Laras = Mesaana - It's tempting.  If Mesaana's goal was to split the Tower and keep it split, helping Siuan & Egwene escape promotes those goals.  Especially Egwene's escape since she was making so much progress undermining Elaida.  It would also explain why she tried to sneak Egwene out without asking first.  On the other hand, I seem to recall Siuan talking about Laras as having been in the Tower for a lot longer than the Seals have been breaking.  I'm not sure how likely it is she could do the impersonating.  Plus, I'm not sure that Laras as a disguise would have allowed enough opportunities to be randomly absent for various Forsaken planning sessions.  

 

3.  Morgase/Perrin - Her hidden identity has been the single most annoying part of this entire series to me.  I look forward to seeing it all play out as much as anyone.  I don't think it detracts at all for Tam to let the info slip.  Tossing in the information that finally, SOMEONE, will figure this out makes it easier to sleep at night.  

 

4.  Zombies - I loved it.  Maybe that's because I love zombie movies.  Still, how is this any stranger than a man's insides turning into tar, cockroaches swelling out of the ground (and being entirely the wrong species iirc), and playing cards trying to kill you?  The difference here is how long the bubble of evil is lasting, maybe also the lack of proximity to a ta'veren - several (4 - 5?) months prior to Matt's arrival.

 

5.  3 become 1 - I keep reading that as something to do with Rand's three ladies.  Saidar/Saidin/TP seems too obvious & logical to me.  I'm not opposed to both being true.  Just can't figure out how Min would fit.

 

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the aes sedai are meant to lead. just like in the age of legends. only this time there is no men in their midst to complete the circie. in case you never heard lews therin telamon was an aes sedai as well.

u r right a aes sedai should lead the forces of light

except rand al'thor(now that hes merged with every1 of his past lives) is the only person who can be call themselfs an aes sedai w/o lieing to themselfs

so really the dragon is meannt to lead like the prophecies say :)

rand has always been a servant of all

WT channelers r still manipulators of all

BT channelers r still living weapons

 

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"Sword of light, three become one" prophecy... was that fullfilled in some metaphoric way at the end?  The whole light on Dragonmount looking like a gigantic "Sword of Light" I suppose?  Though not sure if Lews and Rand merging counts as "Three become One' unless it also got rid of Moridin in his head.  Just curious because it's a bit ambiguous.  

 

Min and Cadsuane talk about this prophesy and point us towards Callandor, which needs 3 people to operate correctly. I have no idea what that will entail but it didn't seem like RJ/BS were just trying to throw us off.

 

Edit: Chapter 48(pg.742-745) is the conversation.

 

Right, but in my experience with this series for almost 20 years now, when characters in the book think they know what a prophecy means, it generally turns out they're very, very wrong, and sometimes to detrimental effect.

 

I agree.  Rand may still be part of a three person Callandor circle, but I think the prophecy (and ultimate, permanent victory over the Dark One) will depend on use of saidin, saidar and the True Power.  Lews Therin states that the seal was imperfect (and saidin was tainted) because they only used one half of the One Power.  But I assume saidar would be just as vulnerable to the taint as saidin was.  So they'll need to use the True Power as well to keep the taint away from the joint saidin/saidar seal.

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I agree.  Rand may still be part of a three person Callandor circle, but I think the prophecy (and ultimate, permanent victory over the Dark One) will depend on use of saidin, saidar and the True Power.  Lews Therin states that the seal was imperfect (and saidin was tainted) because they only used one half of the One Power.  But I assume saidar would be just as vulnerable to the taint as saidin was.  So they'll need to use the True Power as well to keep the taint away from the joint saidin/saidar seal.

I think that perhaps the True Power will be what seals the prison, rather than merely buffering the Dark One from any attempt to patch it... to my mind, to have the Dark One's prison whole again would involve "re-weaving" the Pattern at The Bore, rather than merely darning it... and both Moridin's POV (aCoS) and Rand's (tGS) make especial mention of how intimately the pattern may be sensed while holding it.
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And yes i agree with you Owners, but I think you missed the one that caught my eye the most.

Chapter 36: The Death of Tuon

 

I was standing in line at the bookstore about 10am day of release and scanned through the list of chapter titles.  When I got to Chapter 36 I actually exclaimed "What?  No!"  Couple people in line looked at me kinda funny. :)

 

Of course, by the time I finished the first Tuon chapter in the book I understood that chapter title.

 

Long time reader first time poster etc.  I have read and reread the Wheel of Time many times now.  I have read the FAQ and theory sites.  I even re-read most of the series over the previous 2 months.  I will be looking through this whole thread over the next couple days, but couldn't wait to post.

 

I just finished The Gathering Storm (barely in time for the start of the World Series!).  First impression?  Better than I expected.  Better than I had dared hope for.  Mr. Brandon Sanderson, you are to be commended.  Nicely done.

 

Egwene certainly steals the show, but I was just amazed by the changes in Rand.  For almost 50% of the book, I was beginning to fear he had turned.  The title of the last chapter gave me hope that he wasn't lost for good, but I wasn't sure till I got there.  

 

Lots of great stuff settled for us (Sheriam, Verin, how will Cadsuane teach Rand to laugh, the White Tower), but many still unresolved and a couple new questions.  It will be a long year waiting for The Towers of Midnight.  

 

 

 

 

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One thing I wonder is how Meiren sensed the true power and knew that Men and Women could draw it without being a darkfriend.  I suppose her being a researcher and it being the AOL she sensed the massed of Power but it seems a stretch for her to know that men and women can draw it.

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This is my first time posting in a forum, so please forgive if I bungle.

Just a huge fan of the series.

Something's been bothering me since the beginning of the series and I thought had more evidence in this new book and I wanted to see if anyone agreed. 

For some reason, I really think that Ileyana has been reborn as Min, Aviendha, and Elayne.  I think this is what it means with the "Sword becomes light, three become one" prophecy (Min, Aviendha & Elayne becoming one again).  And in the last chapter Rand wonders if "she" was reborn again too.

I have some more evidence from the other books, too but don't want to clog this thread.

For some reason, I think this is important for the later books . . . 

Any one else agree?

 

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This is my first time posting in a forum, so please forgive if I bungle.

Just a huge fan of the series.

Something's been bothering me since the beginning of the series and I thought had more evidence in this new book and I wanted to see if anyone agreed.  

For some reason, I really think that Ileyana has been reborn as Min, Aviendha, and Elayne.  I think this is what it means with the "Sword becomes light, three become one" prophecy (Min, Aviendha & Elayne becoming one again).  And in the last chapter Rand wonders if "she" was reborn again too.

I have some more evidence from the other books, too but don't want to clog this thread.

For some reason, I think this is important for the later books . . .  

Any one else agree?

 

 

my friend called me the other day and had this exact same thought, and i did think about it after i read that part, but...   why would ileyana need to be respun, yes she was AS and maybe she was very powerful but i dont see why she would need to be spun out or why the thread would be split.  Remember Min saw the three women over Rand's body and if we take the 3 are Min Aviendha and Elayne then they have not become one when he "dies"

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I agree.  Rand may still be part of a three person Callandor circle, but I think the prophecy (and ultimate, permanent victory over the Dark One) will depend on use of saidin, saidar and the True Power.  Lews Therin states that the seal was imperfect (and saidin was tainted) because they only used one half of the One Power.  But I assume saidar would be just as vulnerable to the taint as saidin was.  So they'll need to use the True Power as well to keep the taint away from the joint saidin/saidar seal.

cad is right but wrong

the theory that callandor can only be used safely in a circle of 3, applies to every1 except the dragon. we know this b/c he has used it safely, 4+ times  despite the lack of a buffer. what better defense for a weapon than to have it be unusable except by trusting 2 women. we know the forsaken wont link with each other from there conversations and look down and dont trust the BA. rand has tobe directing the flows, Why? b/c hes the most skilled and knownledgeable channeller on the side of the light. the dragon has some odd talent to self buffer and overdraw on the OP w/o stilling himself or dieing. we have seen him draw more than he can a few times and yet hes still fine.

 

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This is my first time posting in a forum, so please forgive if I bungle.

Just a huge fan of the series.

Something's been bothering me since the beginning of the series and I thought had more evidence in this new book and I wanted to see if anyone agreed.  

For some reason, I really think that Ileyana has been reborn as Min, Aviendha, and Elayne.  I think this is what it means with the "Sword becomes light, three become one" prophecy (Min, Aviendha & Elayne becoming one again).  And in the last chapter Rand wonders if "she" was reborn again too.

I have some more evidence from the other books, too but don't want to clog this thread.

For some reason, I think this is important for the later books . . .  

Any one else agree?

 

 

my friend called me the other day and had this exact same thought, and i did think about it after i read that part, but...   why would ileyana need to be respun, yes she was AS and maybe she was very powerful but i dont see why she would need to be spun out or why the thread would be split.  Remember Min saw the three women over Rand's body and if we take the 3 are Min Aviendha and Elayne then they have not become one when he "dies"

 

well we know that the pattern often spits out great loves  (Brigitte said she was always spun out with Cain)  I can't imagine that ileyana wouldn't be spun out since lews therin killed himself over his grief for her.  as far as the thread splitting.  if we assume a soul is one thread, and we know a soul can be ripped from a body (Ishmael tried to rip Rands from his body in TDR), can we not assume a soul can be ripped in three?  and what would cause a soul enough pain to rip in three than the fact that the person that is your husband is/has killed you?

I don't think the three becoming one will be permanent though.  Just a way to combine powers and mount an attack, but I can't imagine the "bodies" being fused. 

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Maybe I've read Hero of ages too often but could the TP and Saidar/Saidin be one, similar as to that god got split somehow in Mistborn and the old Terrismen screw it up and 1000 years later Sazed has to fix it.  Because it says the three Become one nut "are used as" or whatnot  That just occurred to me

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I'm thinking the missing Embassey and the Reds has something to do with the Black Tower being rent in Blood and Fire.  Whatever the reason, Egwene was an idiot for taking oaths on the Binder.  If the seanchan attack again, which I think they will, she will have to be like all those other foolish Aes Sedai and put herself and her warder, in danger before she can fight, because she thinks the seanchan are evil but not Shadowspawn.  The bitch still thinks that the AS will lead and everyone need follow THEM.  The two Niro's(Eliada and Egwene) fiddled while Rome burned.  The one who was forced to do it all byself couldn't trust his proported allies because the were all trying to manipulate.  He almost destroyed himself in the effort and all see wants isto lead him.  She takes a few steps forward and then a mile back.

 

One thing more, the body blows team shadow might or might not have taken are meaningless if the floors melt and destroy people or food spoils or no direct sunlight.

 

 

the aes sedai are meant to lead. just like in the age of legends. only this time there is no men in their midst to complete the circie. in case you never heard lews therin telamon was an aes sedai as well.

 

 

as for egwene she was the highlight of the book. she did everything to salvage the white tower. and she will be a great amyrlin. far greater leader than rand al thor i personally believe

 

 

as for the bodyblows, they are massive blows and you cannot deny it. the black ajah have been cast aside, forsaken killed yet again and rand is laughing once more.

 

 

seriously the shadow have been beaten back once again. it just keeps happening. i was joking earlier with a friend about why choedan kal was destroyed and he said ' perhaps rand felt so bad for the shadow he decided to destroy it to keep it a level playing field

 

 

I think it was pretty obvious why he destroyed the Choedan Kal. The first is that power was seductive, with it it allowed Rand to consider anything was capable of being done, never giving thought about the consequences of it. Secondly is became evidently clear via Lews Therin to Rand that particular path would lead ultimately to failure. Rand saw this, I think removed the temptation of what he not only might but could do with it. He now knows its not that answer, and he begining to look for the correct one. Also its showing how Rands Pyche is working to fixing itself finally.

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This is my first time posting in a forum, so please forgive if I bungle.

Just a huge fan of the series.

Something's been bothering me since the beginning of the series and I thought had more evidence in this new book and I wanted to see if anyone agreed.  

For some reason, I really think that Ileyana has been reborn as Min, Aviendha, and Elayne.  I think this is what it means with the "Sword becomes light, three become one" prophecy (Min, Aviendha & Elayne becoming one again).  And in the last chapter Rand wonders if "she" was reborn again too.

I have some more evidence from the other books, too but don't want to clog this thread.

For some reason, I think this is important for the later books . . .  

Any one else agree?

 

 

my friend called me the other day and had this exact same thought, and i did think about it after i read that part, but...   why would ileyana need to be respun, yes she was AS and maybe she was very powerful but i dont see why she would need to be spun out or why the thread would be split.  Remember Min saw the three women over Rand's body and if we take the 3 are Min Aviendha and Elayne then they have not become one when he "dies"

 

Hi, I'm new at this posting thing as well, so I hope I've got this right. Your Min/Aviendha/Elayne theory has some merit, though I doubt they could be considered the "sword of light". My view is that the three becomming one is Rand, Lews Therin and Moridin becoming one. Ive noticed that appart they are all insane but the more they seem to bind to one another the more similar and sane they sound in thier respective minds. The sword of light part I do not think reffers to Callandor, but to the way in which the series ends please DO NOT read on if theories spoil your anticipation of the last few books, but I think that the trio combine to use the True Power to thust a pillar of light into the Dark One "killing" him for good. I know that Moridin theorised that the dark one had broken free hundreds of times but where is the proof? we know that The DO is imensely powerfull but may not be the actual antythesis of the creator as they are too different in nature rather than being to sides of the same coin like most ultimate good/evil characters are. Is the cycle of "last battles" real, or is the last battle aptly named and this theory just another lie spread into the mind of Moridin by the father of lies? The difference in nature I reffer to is the almost corporeal nature of Shaitaan. If he IS the ultimate evil how did Shadar Logoth form a new srain of evil that actively attacked the Dark One? yes there are many  forms of evil,  but this suggests that unlike a real "satan", the source of all evil, The dark one is just another, but super powerful evil entity.

I'm sorry if this is begginning to seem like a rant of a raving WOT fan, which i guess I am, but I feel that if anyone has an ultimate change of heart it would be the theologin in Moridin that would turn him in the end.

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I am working on a theory similar to that, ali, about Illyena and Rand's troublesome trio. There are still some kinks to be worked out, and pending another complete series re-read, I may be able to propose it.

 

I will say, however, that I have always thought Moridin will eventually throw his lot in with Rand. His human desire to live will win out over his morose mentality and theologies, he will realize there is a way to exist in peace, and Demandred, in his moment of shining glory, will step up as Nae'blis.

 

The problem with Demandred is that he thinks the DO remaking the world in his image will result in him ruling the world. The DO wants to destroy the wheel and end time, leaving him with infinite power over the souls of everyone from all eternity, as they no longer have a pattern to be reborn into.

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GlowingThread, your theory doesn't work about Elan Morin and Lews Therin.

 

LTT is gone, never to return, and may never have actually been there (though his memories are *definitely* there, per RJ's comments).

 

That's what reintegration is, and reintegration is what Rand achieved on Dragonmount in Veins of Gold.

 

However, I do agree that Elan Morin is going to either convert or withdraw, basically.

 

And:

 

The problem with Demandred is that he thinks the DO remaking the world in his image will result in him ruling the world. The DO wants to destroy the wheel and end time, leaving him with infinite power over the souls of everyone from all eternity, as they no longer have a pattern to be reborn into.

 

No, Jaric, that's what I've been trying to address for weeks, ever since I read Graendal's POV in the Prologue.

 

I really *don't* think Demandred cares about ruling anything anymore. He joined the Shadow because Lews Therin beat him at every *single* thing. Including, though I doubt the other Forsaken even know about this, stealing Demandred's great love (of course, it's not stated whether Ilyena ever actually wanted Barid Bel), because we only learn this from Lews Therin's own memories.

 

Remember the Prologue; Demandred gets no pleasure from anything, not ruling, not commanding in battle, not in doing evil or torturing, in nothing. The only way he would ever smile or laugh would be when he's standing over Lews Therin and now Rand's body. Not before.

 

At this point, I think that Demandred would *accept* the end of existence if it meant that he can first take his revenge. He has literally nothing to live for or take pleasure in other than this. Lews Therin deprived him of everything else - at least in Barid Bel Medar's own mind, LTT did.

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