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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
JenniferL

Prologue, Chap. 1-50, Epilogue

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Long time lurker and first time poster here.  I used to post on wotmania many years ago, but it's been a long time.

 

I just finished TGS.  Has anyone looked at where the different plot threads are timeline-wise?  I noticed that at one point rand has one of his visions of Perrin and sees him with Galad, but we never see this in a Perrin viewpoint chapter.  It seems clear that Rand's thread is some period of time, possibly weeks ahead of Perrin and possibly Mat. 

 

From the epilogue, it seems clear that Egwene's thread is caught up with Rand's.  Any thoughts on where the others are in relation to Rand/Egwene, time-wise?

 

 

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@obsessedfan4eva, What book were you reading? Most of that is true, but one is glaringly obvious in its falsehood. That review you posted could be from someone who just read thru the thread and posted a summary of the spoilers from the first 35 pages. While I have not posted any spoilers myself, I have been on this thread since I got the book on Saturday, and those who are hoping for a preview or some juicy tidbits are going to be pissed when they read it.

 

 

 

what was the glaring falsehood on obsessedfan4eva' info on page [44]?

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@obsessedfan4eva, What book were you reading? Most of that is true, but one is glaringly obvious in its falsehood. That review you posted could be from someone who just read thru the thread and posted a summary of the spoilers from the first 35 pages. While I have not posted any spoilers myself, I have been on this thread since I got the book on Saturday, and those who are hoping for a preview or some juicy tidbits are going to be pissed when they read it.

 

 

 

what was the glaring falsehood on obsessedfan4eva' info on page [44]?

 

Quite a few actually, though some can be explained by sloppy reading/misinterpretation.

 

But the things about Demandred, Fain and Slayer, to mention a few, are simply not true.

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@obsessedfan4eva, What book were you reading? Most of that is true, but one is glaringly obvious in its falsehood. That review you posted could be from someone who just read thru the thread and posted a summary of the spoilers from the first 35 pages. While I have not posted any spoilers myself, I have been on this thread since I got the book on Saturday, and those who are hoping for a preview or some juicy tidbits are going to be pissed when they read it.

 

 

 

what was the glaring falsehood on obsessedfan4eva' info on page [44]?

 

Quite a few actually, though some can be explained by sloppy reading/misinterpretation.

 

But the things about Demandred, Fain and Slayer, to mention a few, are simply not true.

 

He indicated that Slayer did not make an appearance.  I don't recall an appearance from Slayer, where did I miss that?

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@obsessedfan4eva, What book were you reading? Most of that is true, but one is glaringly obvious in its falsehood. That review you posted could be from someone who just read thru the thread and posted a summary of the spoilers from the first 35 pages. While I have not posted any spoilers myself, I have been on this thread since I got the book on Saturday, and those who are hoping for a preview or some juicy tidbits are going to be pissed when they read it.

 

 

 

what was the glaring falsehood on obsessedfan4eva' info on page [44]?

 

There are actually several. For starters we do not see Demandred when Aviendha travels to the Waste, nor is he confirmed as a lord in Shara--or even strongly implied to be one. We learn only that his 'rule' is secure. Secondly we do not see Fain at Far Madding. Mesaana is not known to be dead, only that she is no longer amongst the Aes Sedai in the Tower--Egwene worries that she may have some way to escape the Oath Rod, but that is almost certainly not the case given what we know of Binders--unless, possibly, the Dark One could give her the power to do so.

 

There are smaller ones too--Cadsuane doesn't get banished because of Min's torture, she gets banished for failing in her duty to guard the male a'dam. At least thats the party line, Rand also shows its because he is paranoid about her manipulating and trying to 'box' him with her words. Lews Therin does not 'leave' Rand's head, rather they together come to the same realisation that they both have the chance to love again in that they are reborn (thats a bit of an over-simplification but it'll do for now). They are, in effect, reintergrated into each other and become one person again.

 

Also some of his assumptions are out of joint.

 

 

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@obsessedfan4eva, What book were you reading? Most of that is true, but one is glaringly obvious in its falsehood. That review you posted could be from someone who just read thru the thread and posted a summary of the spoilers from the first 35 pages. While I have not posted any spoilers myself, I have been on this thread since I got the book on Saturday, and those who are hoping for a preview or some juicy tidbits are going to be pissed when they read it.

 

 

 

what was the glaring falsehood on obsessedfan4eva' info on page [44]?

 

Quite a few actually, though some can be explained by sloppy reading/misinterpretation.

 

But the things about Demandred, Fain and Slayer, to mention a few, are simply not true.

 

He indicated that Slayer did not make an appearance.  I don't recall an appearance from Slayer, where did I miss that?

 

I am of course refering to how he called Slayer lame ;D

 

Ok, I misread, it happens when you have just bullrushed through almost 800 pages of awesomeness ;D

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By the way.

 

Assuming that Graendal met her end - and I have my doubts; I have a feeling she finds out about Semirhage and then, well, I absolutely would not put it past her to predict Rand's plan and place a weave on that idiotic Domani set to expire after the initial Delving, allowing her to fake her death - we're left with only six Chosen.

 

Aran'gar and Mesaana are in complete disgrace, because they've *both* managed to lose in the Tower Civil War. One's already been raped by SuperFade, and I wouldn't be surprised to see Aran'gar added to his little harem of Forsaken.

 

Moghedien and Cyndane are de facto servants now, and so really ought to be seen as extensions of Moridin.

 

And then, we've got Elan Morin and Demandred.

 

I'd say that this book represents the opening salvo of the Last Battle, in the form of Rand's internal struggle.

 

But in the nature of this struggle, I'd say that we can glimpse the devastating defeat of the plans of supposed Mad Boy (Girl Genius FTW!) Elan Morin Tedronai with respect to one Mr. Rand Al'Thor. I doubt he'll lose his position as Nae'blis, but this book cannot be seen as anything other than the final victory of Rand over Elan Morin. Perhaps not physically, but rather, in the only place that's ever mattered, really, which is to say Rand's mind.

 

Looking at Elan Morin's behavior we see:

 

For the first three books, he tried to convert Rand, only to change his mind and kill him when he decided Rand was unconvertable.

 

Since gaining his new body, and most *certainly* since their meeting in Shadar Logoth, I have a feeling that his plans changed to corrupting Rand. Certainly, Elan Morin is absolutely determined to prevent the Cleansing because he knows that the Taint is making Rand insane, perhaps not in the way that Jaric was in TSR, but in the sense that it is accelerating Rand's loss of humanity.

 

The ultimate example of this would be Rand's use of the True Power to torch Semirhage. Notice that Lews Therin recognizes what Rand is doing in this chapter, and the gravity of that situation actually causes LTT more fear than the PTSD box business. Remember that LTT says that doing this would connect them to HIM. All caps. I think that's pretty clear that at least part of Rand realizes that by using the TP he directly links himself to the Dark One. Moreover, it is only after his mental snapping occurs, when he goes to that place even beyond the Void, that we see him gain the ability to use the True Power.

 

However, the combination of Tam and Rand's visit to Ebou Dar start the chain reaction that leads to Rand reintegrating on Dragonmount, and in finally banishing - or at least controlling - his demons.

 

Thus Elan Morin and Shaidar Haran's careful plans have been for naught. I say Shaidar Haran, because I would say that the Big Guy absolutely has had something to do with Rand's corruption since the end of Book Six. Mesaana might have planned the capture, but we've got some pretty bloody good evidence that Taim himself is working for the Shadow in one way or another, ensuring the prison break of a severely messed up Dragon Reborn. I would say that the reason the Great Lord is so pleased with Demandred at the end of LoC is largely because Rand has been horrifically scarred.

 

Yet with his reintegration, we've got a Rand who might be closer to the All Supreme Badass of Shadow Kicking we saw from the end of TGH through to the end of TSR, where he not only defeats the Shadow, he actually manages to capture Asmodean.

 

Thus, I have a feeling that Elan Morin is going to be very, very, very angry.

 

Which brings us back to the list I gave at the top.

 

Elan Morin might style himself as the champion of the Dark, but I think that, in the last two books Demandred will finally, at long last, bring himself into direct conflict with the man who took everything away from him, including, if the memories of LTT regarding Barid Bel and Ilyena Sunhair are any indication, the love of his life.

 

The result of TGS leaves me practically salivating for the last two works, because I think we're finally going to get a truly awesome bad guy, which, frankly, we've been missing.

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By the way.

 

Assuming that Graendal met her end - and I have my doubts; I have a feeling she finds out about Semirhage and then, well, I absolutely would not put it past her to predict Rand's plan and place a weave on that idiotic Domani set to expire after the initial Delving, allowing her to fake her death - we're left with only six Chosen.

 

I am on your camp with the Graendal thing. I think I was the first person to post on here that I am not for certain she is dead and then everyone else jumped on me about the Compulsion weave. I still think Graendal has a part to play. It's just hard for me to picture her making such a stupid mistake as that.

 

 

Aran'gar and Mesaana are in complete disgrace, because they've *both* managed to lose in the Tower Civil War. One's already been raped by SuperFade, and I wouldn't be surprised to see Aran'gar added to his little harem of Forsaken.

 

Agreed. I still think Mesaana may be in the tower. Remember what Egwene thought about the possibility of fooling the Oath Rod and we do know that Mesaana is in to research so it is very possible that she did fool it. (or maybe she is Evanellein, the other Sitter who was not on Verin's list, but escaped the tower)

 

Moghedien and Cyndane are de facto servants now, and so really ought to be seen as extensions of Moridin.

 

I think we are going to see Cyndane playing a much bigger part in the last book if not the next one as well. If Rand and Moridin really are merging and Rand is now the Dragon Reborn, (I think the full rebirth happened at the end of prologue with the radiance of the sun shining down on Dragonmount) then maybe she will get her wish after all be it in a strange way.

 

And then, we've got Elan Morin and Demandred.

 

I'd say that this book represents the opening salvo of the Last Battle, in the form of Rand's internal struggle.

 

But in the nature of this struggle, I'd say that we can glimpse the devastating defeat of the plans of supposed Mad Boy (Girl Genius FTW!) Elan Morin Tedronai with respect to one Mr. Rand Al'Thor. I doubt he'll lose his position as Nae'blis, but this book cannot be seen as anything other than the final victory of Rand over Elan Morin. Perhaps not physically, but rather, in the only place that's ever mattered, really, which is to say Rand's mind.

 

Looking at Elan Morin's behavior we see:

 

For the first three books, he tried to convert Rand, only to change his mind and kill him when he decided Rand was unconvertable.

 

Since gaining his new body, and most *certainly* since their meeting in Shadar Logoth, I have a feeling that his plans changed to corrupting Rand. Certainly, Elan Morin is absolutely determined to prevent the Cleansing because he knows that the Taint is making Rand insane, perhaps not in the way that Jaric was in TSR, but in the sense that it is accelerating Rand's loss of humanity.

 

The ultimate example of this would be Rand's use of the True Power to torch Semirhage. Notice that Lews Therin recognizes what Rand is doing in this chapter, and the gravity of that situation actually causes LTT more fear than the PTSD box business. Remember that LTT says that doing this would connect them to HIM. All caps. I think that's pretty clear that at least part of Rand realizes that by using the TP he directly links himself to the Dark One. Moreover, it is only after his mental snapping occurs, when he goes to that place even beyond the Void, that we see him gain the ability to use the True Power.

 

However, the combination of Tam and Rand's visit to Ebou Dar start the chain reaction that leads to Rand reintegrating on Dragonmount, and in finally banishing - or at least controlling - his demons.

 

Thus Elan Morin and Shaidar Haran's careful plans have been for naught. I say Shaidar Haran, because I would say that the Big Guy absolutely has had something to do with Rand's corruption since the end of Book Six. Mesaana might have planned the capture, but we've got some pretty bloody good evidence that Taim himself is working for the Shadow in one way or another, ensuring the prison break of a severely messed up Dragon Reborn. I would say that the reason the Great Lord is so pleased with Demandred at the end of LoC is largely because Rand has been horrifically scarred.

 

Yet with his reintegration, we've got a Rand who might be closer to the All Supreme Badass of Shadow Kicking we saw from the end of TGH through to the end of TSR, where he not only defeats the Shadow, he actually manages to capture Asmodean.

 

Thus, I have a feeling that Elan Morin is going to be very, very, very angry.

 

Which brings us back to the list I gave at the top.

 

Elan Morin might style himself as the champion of the Dark, but I think that, in the last two books Demandred will finally, at long last, bring himself into direct conflict with the man who took everything away from him, including, if the memories of LTT regarding Barid Bel and Ilyena Sunhair are any indication, the love of his life.

 

The result of TGS leaves me practically salivating for the last two works, because I think we're finally going to get a truly awesome bad guy, which, frankly, we've been missing.

 

I can honestly say that I will be severely disappointed if this isn't true. I have been waiting for Demandred to step up from his "always second place" position. Wonder if we will be seeing a new Nae'blis in the next couple books. Not to mention that Rand's link to Elan/Ishy/Moridin is now causing both of them severe problems with channeling. Notice how many times Rand gets sick trying to channel in TGS.

 

Here is another interesting thought. LTT mentioned that they touch Saidin to the DO because something has to touch him for the prison to work. I wonder if Rand touching the True Source and in that, the DO as well will have something to do with sealing the DO away for good.

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I think his reintegration *may* have purged him of his link to Elan Morin.

 

Other than that, I would say that I wouldn't be surprised if Rand uses the TP to seal the Big Guy up.

 

That would, of course, make sense, because before she bored into the prison, Lanfear thought she had found this source of crazy stuff outside the pattern. If the Big Guy is bound up with his own stuff, then that would explain why channelers don't detect any kind of saidin or saidar prison during the AoL.

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I think you might have just hit on something about how to seal away the DO for good or at least until the AoL comes around again.

 

The re-integration won't help with that Moridin link I don't think. It was that little balefire incident that started that and his voices that have stopped now started before that.

 

Also, what was your earlier comment to me about? There was no quote with it so I am not sure what you were referring to. I think it had something to do with viewings maybe?

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I think you might have just hit on something about how to seal away the DO for good or at least until the AoL comes around again.

 

The re-integration won't help with that Moridin link I don't think. It was that little balefire incident that started that and his voices that have stopped now started before that.

 

Also, what was your earlier comment to me about? There was no quote with it so I am not sure what you were referring to. I think it had something to do with viewings maybe?

 

I was replying to something you wrote about one of my posts (not in this thread) on page 38. It was several days ago, so I'm not surprised you don't recall, but I only just read this thread this evening after finishing the book, and then going back to read over about a third of it for my favorite parts.

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Ok, see my Dark Prophecy thread in the General Forum for more, but I can't put this information in there or at least that which applies to TGS.

 

 

From the Dark Prophecy:

"Death sows." -- Ishy stabbing Rand with his staff.

"Death reaps." -- Rand touching the DO by channeling the TP. Note that he had to have a link to the DO to do this. The only possible link is through that wound. Yes, he has some strange link to Moridin, but you still can't channel through someone else.

 

 

From the Dark Prophecy:

"The man who channels stands alone.

He gives his friends for sacrifice.

Two roads before him, one to death beyond dying, one to life eternal.

Which will he choose? Which will he choose?

What hand shelters? What hand slays?"

 

Line 1 - In Veins of Gold, Rand stands completely alone on Dragonmount. He has pushed away everyone close to him.

Line 2 - He thinks about all the deaths he has caused.

Line 3 - His thoughts about ending it all. He draws all the power of the CK and asks why he keeps fighting.

Line 4 - Well, we find out.

Line 5 - Direct quote from "Veins of Gold." - "What was he? What was the Dragon Reborn? A symbol? A sacrifice? A sword, meant to destroy? A sheltering hand, meant to protect?"

 

 

 

 

And finally, a Mazrim Taim tidbit.

 

In LoC Chapter 2, Taim says the following:

"Victors write history. Had I taken the Stone of Tear, history would have shown I was born on Dragonmount, of a woman never touched by a man, and the heavens opened up in radiance to herald my coming."

 

In "Bathed in Light":

After all this time the clouds had finally broken. They had pulled back in a ring around Dragonmount. The sun shone down, radiant, lighting the distant, snow-capped crag. The broken maw and uppermost peak of the blasted mountainside were bathed in light.

 

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I may be wrong, but most people seem to think Graendal is indeed dead and that the Shadow played a minimal role in this book, and that the greatest evil was Rand himself...

 

Now, while that last is certainly kind of true, I'm amazed how people simply ignored some parts of the prologue which strongly imply that the Shadow had a major role in making Rand the way he was.

 

Here's what I think the Shadow's plan was...

 

Moridin had seen that physical harm to Rand can hurt him. He thus wanted to end this battle without actually having to hurt Rand physically.

 

The first step of the plan was to free Semirhage and have her use the male a'dam on Rand. The end goal was not to capture Rand but to have him, in his desperation, seize the True Power. My belief is that this strengthened the connection between Rand and Moridin.

 

That achieved, the next step was to take out the one ally of Rand's who would not only notice the increasing darkness in Rand, but take concrete steps to counter it. The one ally who would stand up to him and point out how he is behaving as anyone sworn to the Dark One would. To that end, the male a'dam is removed from Cadsuane's protection, in such a way as to suggest incompetence on her part.

 

That done, it was now time to send Rand packing from Arad Doman, yet in a much worse mental state than he currently was. To achieve this, the Shadow played one of its most diabolical and subtle games.

 

First, the Choedan Kal is left behind when the a'dam in stolen, and the whole incident is designed to make Rand take very good care of it. It was to become his talisman against the use of the True Power, an object he would grow to rely on more and more, justifying it as a counterweight to the TP. This was something Moridin could well anticipate, as he is likely aware of the existence of LTT's memory in Rand's head.

 

Now, what has Rand said is his ultimate goal in Arad Doman? The removal of Graendal. He thinks she has the king, but we know she does not because he isn't good looking enough.

 

As Rand searches for the king, a source to find him is provided. An extremely handsome man, supposedly Graendal's courier, is a captive of the merchant Rand captured (however, we know Graendal rarely gives up her pets for small jobs. Her previous couriers were never handsome enough). Convenient. This captive is then promptly killed on Rand's arrival, which should lead him/someone near him to believe that this man held the key to Graendal's secret location.

 

If anyone were to come looking for this man, a conveniently placed "spy" of Graendal's would be found, on whom suspicion will fall immediately because he has been poisoning the imprisoned merchant! Why would Graendal have him do that if she wants to avoid notice?

 

More importantly, why kill the first courier? His brain would have been damaged by the compulsion. One could argue Graendal foresaw what happened with Kerb and wanted to prevent her courier from blabbing. But it makes no sense to replace one such threat with an equal threat (Kerb), and then have a fiery arrow pointed at the new threat!

 

Kerb was meant to be found. And his mentioning of Natrin's Barrow a case of Graendal's subtle compulsion, which we know is very difficult to detect.

 

So, you think, Rand has been pointed towards Graendal's lair. Natrin's Barrow makes sense, since we know Graendal's lair was in sight of the Misty Mountains (according to Sammael). But Sammael also says that her palace was widely known in Arad Doman. Rand directly contradicts this when he says the general populace of Arad Doman doesn't remember Natrin's Barrow, nor does the king, and the royal archivist had to search for four hours to locate it. No way will the royal archivist in one of the worlds foremost libraries take four hours to locate a fortress that is well known in his own country!

 

Another thing... Sammael guesses that everyone leaving Graendal's lair probably left subtly compelled into believing that she was a descendant of a family that had lived here since the Breaking. That Rodel Ituralde comes to visit "Lady Basene" certainly points to such an impression being created by Graendal.

 

Yet, Rand reports that his scouts heard from the villagers that someone new lives in Natrin's Barrow and that the old occupants were no longer there, and they never thought about the change. This doesn't add up to what kind of history Graendal would have set up for herself.

 

Therefore, Natrin's Barrow was never Graendal's lair! It was a palace full of innocent people that Rand was to destroy.

 

He would initially think he had justification, since the vanishing of Graendal's compulsion would make him believe she is dead.

 

The ultimate plan was to reveal to Rand that Graendal is in fact alive, driving out his anger, making him rile at being used.

 

This part of the plan never got acted upon because before this could happen, Cadsuane sent Tam to Rand, and that achieved the same purpose.

 

And what did the Shadow intend Rand do when his temper slips? Question the Pattern, the Wheel, the Creator. Question his purpose. And what solution should he find? Moridin had engineered a meeting to remind Rand about his own take on creation. That all creation was a lie, a torture, and release from creation necessitated destroying the Pattern. And how to do that? The Choedan Kal, of course, conveniently left behind with Rand!

 

While the final act that drove Rand to nearly destroy creation was not engineered by the Shadow, his reaction was completely because of what the Shadow did. Graendal was ordered to give Rand anguish of mind. And she would have, had Cadsuane not stepped in. His actions with Tam caused Rand greater anguish than anything Graendal could engineer, but it also made him question not just the Pattern and Creation, but himself.

 

The Shadow came very close to achieving its goals in this book. All that saved Rand was the persistence of his Aes Sedai adviser and Nynaeve, the good sense of Tam, and his core personality that, in the end, let him be honest with himself.

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My thanks to luckers and Majsju, both of whom had my back prior to me getting back on today. The "glaring" falsehood I was referring to was of course Demandred, as he has been shrouded in so much mystery for the entire series that to tease someone with hints of his appearance in guise was bad form.

 

To Isabel, I apologize for seeming to berate you singularly, as that was not my intent, because certainly in an argument, both people should be blamed when it becomes distracting and out of hand.

 

Also, I think this has settled the Verin Question. Good intentions or bad, she was a member of the BA and UNBOUND against lying. Don't be ashamed, we are all wrong every once in a while, even those of us who won't admit it.  ;)

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I may be wrong, but most people seem to think Graendal is indeed dead and that the Shadow played a minimal role in this book, and that the greatest evil was Rand himself...

 

Now, while that last is certainly kind of true, I'm amazed how people simply ignored some parts of the prologue which strongly imply that the Shadow had a major role in making Rand the way he was.

 

Here's what I think the Shadow's plan was...

 

Moridin had seen that physical harm to Rand can hurt him. He thus wanted to end this battle without actually having to hurt Rand physically.

 

The first step of the plan was to free Semirhage and have her use the male a'dam on Rand. The end goal was not to capture Rand but to have him, in his desperation, seize the True Power. My belief is that this strengthened the connection between Rand and Moridin.

 

That achieved, the next step was to take out the one ally of Rand's who would not only notice the increasing darkness in Rand, but take concrete steps to counter it. The one ally who would stand up to him and point out how he is behaving as anyone sworn to the Dark One would. To that end, the male a'dam is removed from Cadsuane's protection, in such a way as to suggest incompetence on her part.

 

That done, it was now time to send Rand packing from Arad Doman, yet in a much worse mental state than he currently was. To achieve this, the Shadow played one of its most diabolical and subtle games.

 

First, the Choedan Kal is left behind when the a'dam in stolen, and the whole incident is designed to make Rand take very good care of it. It was to become his talisman against the use of the True Power, an object he would grow to rely on more and more, justifying it as a counterweight to the TP. This was something Moridin could well anticipate, as he is likely aware of the existence of LTT's memory in Rand's head.

 

Now, what has Rand said is his ultimate goal in Arad Doman? The removal of Graendal. He thinks she has the king, but we know she does not because he isn't good looking enough.

 

As Rand searches for the king, a source to find him is provided. An extremely handsome man, supposedly Graendal's courier, is a captive of the merchant Rand captured (however, we know Graendal rarely gives up her pets for small jobs. Her previous couriers were never handsome enough). Convenient. This captive is then promptly killed on Rand's arrival, which should lead him/someone near him to believe that this man held the key to Graendal's secret location.

 

If anyone were to come looking for this man, a conveniently placed "spy" of Graendal's would be found, on whom suspicion will fall immediately because he has been poisoning the imprisoned merchant! Why would Graendal have him do that if she wants to avoid notice?

 

More importantly, why kill the first courier? His brain would have been damaged by the compulsion. One could argue Graendal foresaw what happened with Kerb and wanted to prevent her courier from blabbing. But it makes no sense to replace one such threat with an equal threat (Kerb), and then have a fiery arrow pointed at the new threat!

 

Kerb was meant to be found. And his mentioning of Natrin's Barrow a case of Graendal's subtle compulsion, which we know is very difficult to detect.

 

So, you think, Rand has been pointed towards Graendal's lair. Natrin's Barrow makes sense, since we know Graendal's lair was in sight of the Misty Mountains (according to Sammael). But Sammael also says that her palace was widely known in Arad Doman. Rand directly contradicts this when he says the general populace of Arad Doman doesn't remember Natrin's Barrow, nor does the king, and the royal archivist had to search for four hours to locate it. No way will the royal archivist in one of the worlds foremost libraries take four hours to locate a fortress that is well known in his own country!

 

Another thing... Sammael guesses that everyone leaving Graendal's lair probably left subtly compelled into believing that she was a descendant of a family that had lived here since the Breaking. That Rodel Ituralde comes to visit "Lady Basene" certainly points to such an impression being created by Graendal.

 

Yet, Rand reports that his scouts heard from the villagers that someone new lives in Natrin's Barrow and that the old occupants were no longer there, and they never thought about the change. This doesn't add up to what kind of history Graendal would have set up for herself.

 

Therefore, Natrin's Barrow was never Graendal's lair! It was a palace full of innocent people that Rand was to destroy.

 

He would initially think he had justification, since the vanishing of Graendal's compulsion would make him believe she is dead.

 

The ultimate plan was to reveal to Rand that Graendal is in fact alive, driving out his anger, making him rile at being used.

 

This part of the plan never got acted upon because before this could happen, Cadsuane sent Tam to Rand, and that achieved the same purpose.

 

And what did the Shadow intend Rand do when his temper slips? Question the Pattern, the Wheel, the Creator. Question his purpose. And what solution should he find? Moridin had engineered a meeting to remind Rand about his own take on creation. That all creation was a lie, a torture, and release from creation necessitated destroying the Pattern. And how to do that? The Choedan Kal, of course, conveniently left behind with Rand!

 

While the final act that drove Rand to nearly destroy creation was not engineered by the Shadow, his reaction was completely because of what the Shadow did. Graendal was ordered to give Rand anguish of mind. And she would have, had Cadsuane not stepped in. His actions with Tam caused Rand greater anguish than anything Graendal could engineer, but it also made him question not just the Pattern and Creation, but himself.

 

The Shadow came very close to achieving its goals in this book. All that saved Rand was the persistence of his Aes Sedai adviser and Nynaeve, the good sense of Tam, and his core personality that, in the end, let him be honest with himself.

 

Do you think that despite his reintergration, that moridin will still try and influence him to turn?

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My thoughts with the 'three shall be as one' was Moridin/Rand/LTT - I'd never thought of Callandor. Now two are as one, I wonder if Moridin could still 'intergrate'?

 

And I wonder if Callandor's circle-of-three could be at all like the male a'dam - i.e. the women get control and the man's just a copnduit?

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Oh, another point...

 

Rand taught Narishma balefire, right? Narishma took Callandor after Rand. He who draws Callendor shall 'follow after' - have we not yet seen the significance?

 

And 'to live, you must die' - we know Balefire destroys the pattern, could Rand die at Moridin/someone's hands, then someone (Logain's glory?) balefires whoever kills Moridin? I'm wondering if we're being too over-complex with theories of merging...

 

Logic:

 

We've seen foreshadowing with Sammael killing Matt/Avi/etc and balefire restoring them.

We know Rand understands that Balefire removes the effects.

We know it counts as a 'death' (Matt's prophecy of to live and die and live again)

 

Therefore, if Rand orders balefire as he dies, he'll die (blood on Dragonmount) and then live again... Yes, it leaves Rand without a hand - but he's got 3 women... :P

 

And twice to live and twice to die - he'll 'die' one on DM, and then die in his old age (I hope) The other option is twice to live (as LTT and Rand) and twice to die (as LTT and Rand) - we may have overcomplicated that one?

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having read (and totally having enjoyed the book) i've come up with a theory based on whats in it.

 

Firstly, all the thoughts on callandor and why it was important, a sign of the propecy and all that.

 

this couples with the three becomes one comment with the shining sword. Now it could mean two women and one man become one and use it to seal the dark ones prison, but...

 

we have heard that LTT (construct or not the memories are real, that has been confirmed by both Semi and by the knowledge only Rand could have) thinks that the reason the seal failed is because it was touching the DO and thus was corruptable. Now i can only assume if saidar is also used 'both' would be touching the DO and could be tainted...

 

so i suggest that ... three becoming one is rand and two women (elayne and avi maybe) using callandor to channel saidin and saidar, and then Rand uses the TP, as we can see ghe can use it collared, so he can probably use it with a women directing the flow.

 

there are two ways this could work. he could either use all three to seal the bore, the True power working as a buffer preventing the dark one from touching the saidin/saidar seal, or it could be like Shadar Logoth, and he uses the one power to make a funnel like before, drawing off all of the true power and channeling it into destroying Shayol Ghul, leaving the DO dormant and weak enough for his tavern'ness (or more likely all three tavern) to seal him in the pattern.

Hell, he may even drain him away completely and kill him, like he wants to do, though i claim this unlikely...

 

the massive use of TP would give him saa and burn out his eyes, giving him true fisher king blindess and may even kill him, bringing in body swap theories and whatever, or it may not...

 

anyway, my early thoughts...

 

oh and PS, book was so awesome i read it in one sitting, eating pot noodles as i didnt want to waste time cooking dinner ;)

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On Graendal--Nynaeve says that the compulsion is not as complete, or perhaps subtle, than what Graendal used on the boy. What if its just plain not as complete--in that it was done by someone without Graendal's talent with compulsion.

 

It's not inconcievable that Graendal would have channelers who were slaves--she loves her slaves to have previously been powerful, and she directly considers enslaving channelers several times. If she is as wily as Rand suspects--and I reckon she is--then Rand's boy turning up out of the blue would put her on edge. She suspects a trap, gets one of her slaves to use compulsion, and flees.

 

Admittedly its stretching it, but its also not beyond Graendal's stated paranoia or ability.

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Woo! First post after reading.

 

I agree. Graendal is too wily to go out like that. My first thought was "patsy" - A'dam or Compulsion someone into Compulsioning the messenger, therefore being removed from the process.

 

God damn what a book.

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Missed opportunity scene 1:

 

"You're WHO?!?" with Mogase... It seemed very slipped in there "Oh, yeah, Elayne's mum is alive... Now can we get back to you?"

 

I'd have loved to see that...

 

"My Lady Faile, I have something to tell you."

"Yes?"

"My name's actually Morgase. Morgase Trakand."

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hello, i usually just lurk and never post but i just finished and i'm too excited not too :D

 

I was thinking about Rand sealing the bore and this line occured to me, "he shall hold a blade of light in his hands and the three shall be as one.".

 

I was curious if anyone else thought this was Saidin, Saidar and the Dark Ones power as the three things that are to be as one, being used together to seal up the dark one.

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Yeah I was wondering how Tam found out about Morgase. I had thought I had missed it through my exhaustion.

 

I think that comes with Perrin meeting up with Galad and the Whitecloaks, we only see that this happens from Rand and the colours; I'm guessing we find out the full story next book.

Woo! First post after reading.

 

I agree. Graendal is too wily to go out like that. My first thought was "patsy" - A'dam or Compulsion someone into Compulsioning the messenger, therefore being removed from the process.

 

God damn what a book.

 

I think that she must have some Aes Sedai within her entourage wanting to do anything to please her and like Rand says she's smarter and more crafty than him.

 

I agree also WHAT A BOOK!!!

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