Prologue, Chap. 1-50, Epilogue

[Isabel]

Nah, I am sure there must be longer fights. Taimandred????

[sumquy]

How does telling someone that they must be stupid, or that they aren't very smart, prove or disprove any theory? It's just offensive, and if the mods won't call you down for it, then maybe I'm at the wrong website.

[Terez]

You know, from the outside this 'real' vs. 'construct' debate looks like two people arguing about whether a car is red or a Toyota.

Yeah, it's not a well-known theory outside of Theoryland, and it's counterintuitive, so it usually takes a long time to explain it to people properly.  But it's not what you say, I promise.  ;)  The two different opinions lead to completely different interpretations of every instance involving Lews Therin, so the debate has a profound effect on the series.

 

I have had longer arguments here before....and truthfully, this argument has been going on for years.  I could link you to a few dozen threads right now if I weren't so lazy...

 

And finally, I wasn't trying to prove or disprove a theory by telling Isa she's not smart.  I was just making an observation.

 

Also, I would say that, since I'm not a regular member, you shouldn't decide whether or not this is the right website based on me.  But I have seen much worse things said by regular members here, moderators even.  So, good luck with that.

[obsessedfan4eva]

Ok Ok everyone, I agree, 44 pages later on the forum and I will reveal all.  It didn't stop me from buying the book.  Ya, some bookstores play dumb and release early, even though with the internet you'd think they could see their release dates, doiiiiiii, me no speaka english, duhhhh what is release date mean?

 

Demandred is revealed as some sort of lord in Shara, and is briefly seen as Aviendha travels the Waste.

 

Fain has a brief cameo appearance with the Borderlanders in Far Madding, which Hurin tries to get Rand to go to.  My guess Fain equals Gollum's role in LotR.  It won't be Rand, but Fain, that kills the Dark One.

 

Asmodean remains a mystery, with Graendal knocked off the list, who knows?  Slayer makes no appearance, which can only show how lame Slayer is, since he can't even finish the deal to kill Fain.

 

Graendal and Semirhage die, plus 1 more (cough, Mesaana).  Graendal gets her palace levelled by balefire when Rand's servant comes back compulsed, Semirhage gets levelled by true power balefire after torturing Min, cause the beginning part of the book Moridin asks Graendal to hurt Rand's heart, so she develops a way to free Semirhage to do just that.  They finally use that stupid male adam on Rand, but for no reason since Moridin lends Rand the true power and Semirhage is toast.  But that is why Cadsuane gets banished cause of Min's torture, Cadsuane gets Tam to see Rand, Rand almost blows Tam away and is shocked by how much he's falling into ruin.

 

Elaida is taken captive by the Seanchan, after Rand botched his deal with Tuon.  Tuon thinks the WHite Tower is connected and sends her Seanchan army against the Aes Sedai there.  Egwene links with novices and uses the sa'angreal, despite like being high on forkroot, and destroys the Seanchan.  Then Verin shows up, and tells her she has been Black Ajah for 70 yrs, and has a list of all Black AJah sisters, and kills herself.  Egwene takes the list, interrogates and executes all Black Ajah she can manage to find, but many escape.  She does kill Sheriam who is BLack Ajah FYI.

 

Tuon dies in a figurative sense, because she takes the name of Empress.  Mat does not go to the Tower of Ghenjei....lame.....you will never find out who manipulated the Prophet.  WHitecloaks are almost unheard of, Trollocs are starting to make a few more appearances, but who needs Trollocs when you can change reality?  

 

Sea Folk are unimportant now.  Rand goes to Dragonmount to commit suicide, reconsiders, has hope, destroys the access key to the CHoedan Kal because it's too powerful.  By the end of the book Rand can cry and be normal again, like the very last page too FYI.  Lews Therin leaves Rand's head, because Rand promises to die at Tarmon Gaidon and not commit suicide, finally get rid of that whiny guy.

Rand has learned all he needs from Lews  THerin by now, like how women screwed up and failed to seal the Dark One's prison.

 

The Aiel on Rand's side make an appearance, aka the Shaido are history.  Asmodean's killer is not revealed, lame too, I really think if you cut the crap it could be 1 book, maybe 2.  The next book is called TOwers of Midnight obviously because it is before the dawn, and towers like Ghenjei, etc., are involved.

 

Rand makes a trip to Ebou Dar also, cause he's crazy.  He sees how the dictatorship by the Seanchan is a better system and more peaceful so he is like wow maybe that's how it should be done.

 

His new sword really is Artur Hawkwing's Justice sword.  I'll let you read and see where it came from, but it is all part of prophecy.  The prophecy of the blind man standing on his grave is Rand standing on Dragonmount, why the heck can't we just speak plainly here IDK.

 

No his hand doesn't grow back.  Guess he didnt balefire back in time far enough.

I think the mysteries have gotten lame by about now with book 12, so any other things you people wanna know just post them and I'll respond.

I mean, you will still buy the book, even if you know the basic details of what happened, I don't understand why it ruins everything.  Happy reading tomorrow for those whose bookstores actually speak English and know how to use the internet!!

 

[obsessedfan4eva]

Actually, if there's any sympathizers out I'm curious.  By now I don't care anymore who killed Asmodean.  Seriously, I started reading the series in 1995.  I cared back then while waiting for Path of Daggers to come out on bookshelves.  Now, I don't really care, that's what happens when you make your fans wait 2 decades for any answer.  I mean, someday it will be revealed, and all I gotta do is look up on WOT wiki for 2 secs to see and be like oh, it's that person, waited 2 decades to find out.

 

One nice thing is finally Moridin shows Rand how the Forsaken keep getting reincarnated.  You would think Rand would understand that with the turnings of the Wheel people get reborn, unless you burn them out of the pattern, that was a big gripe for me for a long while but maybe he was dealing with insanity first.

 

Lol, Kathana, just responding to your post about why independent booksellers sell Gathering Storm early, cause they don't know outside the U.S. or whatever, I call bullcrap on that one lol, I call it ignorance is bliss, cause we live in an internet age where you can check things online.  If we didn't have the internet then your excuse would fly.

 

[obsessedfan4eva]

Actually, if there's any sympathizers out I'm curious.  By now I don't care anymore who killed Asmodean.  Seriously, I started reading the series in 1995.  I cared back then while waiting for Path of Daggers to come out on bookshelves.  Now, I don't really care, that's what happens when you make your fans wait 2 decades for any answer.  I mean, someday it will be revealed, and all I gotta do is look up on WOT wiki for 2 secs to see and be like oh, it's that person, waited 2 decades to find out.

 

One nice thing is finally Moridin shows Rand how the Forsaken keep getting reincarnated.  You would think Rand would understand that with the turnings of the Wheel people get reborn, unless you burn them out of the pattern, that was a big gripe for me for a long while but maybe he was dealing with insanity first.

 

Lol, Kathana, just responding to your post about why independent booksellers sell Gathering Storm early, cause they don't know outside the U.S. or whatever, I call bullcrap on that one lol, I call it ignorance is bliss, cause we live in an internet age where you can check things online.  If we didn't have the internet then your excuse would fly.

 

[Terez]

There are definitely sympathizers.  Check out this faction at Theoryland:

 

Apathy for Asmodean's Killer

[mnwhiterose]

was Moira the only Aes Seda in Egwene's opinion to be old enough to be a Sittr among the new Sitters?

[Terez]

We had already established that in earlier books.  Moria was old enough because she was Blue, and the Blue Ajah wasn't involved in the Ajah Head conspiracy.

[Aagaard]

 

Demandred is revealed as some sort of lord in Shara, and is briefly seen as Aviendha travels the Waste.

 

Fain has a brief cameo appearance with the Borderlanders in Far Madding, which Hurin tries to get Rand to go to.  My guess Fain equals Gollum's role in LotR.  It won't be Rand, but Fain, that kills the Dark One.

 

That is not true. Demandred only appears in the prologue and we don't see Aviendha in the waste.

Neither do we see Fain with the Borderlanders, there are no POV from them

 

Graendal and Semirhage die, plus 1 more (cough, Mesaana). 

 

We don't know the fate of Mesaana yet

[Terez]

Yeah, I had a feeling the Demandred bit wasn't true, since so many others have denied it.  But I heard elsewhere that we did see Aviendha in the Waste.

 

Oh well, I get to finish it tomorrow!

[Bob T Dwarf]

Terez - Isabel -

 

Gosh, guys, I like you both.  You've both contributed positive things to the world of WOT.  So, please return to your neutral corners and wait for the bell to ring for the next round.

 

The Rand/LTT duality comes up around here from time to time.  As is the case here it usually devolves into a wrangle between those who are willing to accept fantasy, and those who feel compelled to defend current psychiatric thought.

 

So, in a sense, from out here in the cheap seats, and considering that we already have the example of Slayer - two totally separate, distinct, and "real" souls in one body - the idea of two separate, distinct and very real personalities within one soul isn't a stretch.  There's nothing outrageous or stupid in accepting that as the case.

 

If we were talking about here-and-now, real world, Terez explanation would be the more correct.  Talking about the fantasy world of WOT, where any idea the author chooses to expound is "accurate and real", Isabel's view seems to most nearly match the "facts" we've been given.

 

You're both right.  But, as mentioned above, you're arguing about whether the car is red or whether it's a Toyota.

 

So, take off the gloves, shake hands, and let's all try to figure out what Rand and Moridin are going to do next.  Or, how Mat and Thom and Noal are going to get Moiraine away from the Finns.  Or, how Moiraine has survived for so long in such a strange place.  Or ...

[JenniferL]

Let's not derail this thread into a back and forth between two posters. If the two of you feel the need to continue your personal discussion, please take it to PMs. Thanks.

 

When the book is in wider release, we'll allow a topic on this subject. But for now, this thread is better suited to general impressions, etc. Discussion of specific plot points will need to wait.

[muddasssir]

well hi ppl i m bck i hate to say it but i guess u will now agree that Rand and ltt were more of a split personality than anything else as for fighting keep ur daggers drawn after all 'Whats life without spice ' lol

 

[Terez]

well hi ppl i m bck i hate to say it but i guess u will now agree that Rand and ltt were more of a split personality than anything else

Sort of...'split personality' in the sense of MPD, but rather with real memories of a past life to give more weight to the illusion of the 'imaginary friend'.

 

I'm not trying to derail the thread, btw.  I came here for spoilers, not to discuss Lews Therin.  We will do that extensively at Theoryland starting tomorrow.

[masty]

I will be immersing myself tomorrow evening in TGS but I am glad I read all the spoilers, I was close to a nervous breakdown not knowing what was going to happen but from what I read from spoilers I can't wait.

 

Verin was what I hoped and more I think from the spoilers alone, hope my admiration will improve after reading her chapter.

 

She along with Snape I think will be immortalized in my memory as examples of literary geniuses. No one couldn't have hated snape more after HP6 but after HP7 it was completely changed.

 

Similarly no character could have been shrouded more mysteriously than Verin and I dare say no one would have predicated what she did in TGS(no theories ever about verin would have come close to predicting this). I can't wait to get my hands on TGS.

[Terez]

Yeah, what Verin did was totally unpredictable.  I wouldn't be surprised if someone came up with an old post on usenet or something predicting almost exactly what happened....but before this book, that theory would have had no more validity than any of the other crazy Verin theories, because there wasn't evidence to back any of them up.

[masty]

One more thing I find interesting and disturbing is though Elaida deserves the fate of being captured by Seanchan. She knows all the secret weaves of the Rebel Aes sedai which includes travelling. This knowledge in Seanchan's hands it would be dangerous I believe there is still one more big confrontation waiting to happen between White Tower and Seanchan. I can't wait to read this book but can't wait to read the next book too. Hopefully they will plan to release it sooner than next November.

[Reyoru]

I just personally want to thank everyone whos posted on this thread. Its been wonderful sitting here and eating up the little spoilers, I'm almost frothing at the mouth to read it in 2 days  :)

[bloodyflamingthisandthat]

Does anyone know if they will sell it at walmart at midnight?

[ShadowsFell]

Does anyone know if they will sell it at walmart at midnight?

 

I don't know.  Their web site says online only not in stores, but I don't know if that's just because its still a pre-order ... don't know what they'll do for tomorrow, though.

[JenniferL]

There are several threads on the other board for publishing and sales info. This board is reserved for plot and setting discussion only. Thanks.

[Jaric Mar Tedronai]

@ Isabel, I think you should be apologizing to the members of D.M. who come to read this thread hoping for a preview of the book and instead are saddled with 4 pages of your silly effing debate. You are wrong, by the way, from what I read here.

 

@ Terez, While you are correct in what you say regarding the personalities/souls discussion, just because she is being stubborn or twisting words or whatever doesn't mean you should resort to insulting or demeaning her intelligence. While I can sympathize with being frustrated over years-long arguments, just let it go. It lowers your eyes to continue entertaining the futility of it, as sometimes people cannot be budged in their opinions, right or wrong.

 

@obsessedfan4eva, What book were you reading? Most of that is true, but one is glaringly obvious in its falsehood. That review you posted could be from someone who just read thru the thread and posted a summary of the spoilers from the first 35 pages. While I have not posted any spoilers myself, I have been on this thread since I got the book on Saturday, and those who are hoping for a preview or some juicy tidbits are going to be pissed when they read it.

 

I am not staff or a mod or anything, but want to point out it is common decency and netiquette to not monopolize a thread or post misleading information.

That being said, this book was bloody flaming outstanding. Burn me if I wasn't feeling true emotions throughout, and Brandon did a great job with it. I will be up bright and early to finish my second read through, and look forward to the entire Dragonmount community being in on the discussions tomorrow.

[Beren]

Ok, I just have to mention this.

 

Mb is in for a rude awakening when he reaches the Verin chapter. (unless he already did?)

[Isabel]

@Jaric: if two people are discussing, two people are at fault.