Who killed Asmodean

[Moghedian]

Okay, we have had over 300 pages on this topic and I was just wondering what people think at the moment. I've tried to stick with most of the theories that I could, but tell me if I have missed out anyone. ;D

[Saidar]

I think it's Semirhage but there is no proof.

[el Nynaeve]

There are probably some people out there who support the Taim theory, so you might want to include him. :)

[Moghedian]

Done. I still think it was Graendal, but hey, it will probably be revealed in the last book that Bela was just in a REALLY bad mood that day... ;D

[Feral]

Where was Verin at the time?

[Cybertrolloc]

None of the above/other gets no love?

[Leopoled Boothe]

I think it was Isam/Luc aka Slayer.  I think Lanfear encountered him in Finnland and ordered him to kill Asmo.  I know all this would have had to have happened in a rather short time, but I think this is why RJ introduced us to the Tower of Ghenji and Slayer's association with it so early in the series.  However, I will admit that there is also a strong case for Graendel.

 

I find it interesting that Logain is on the list.  Wasn't he still gentled at that point?  I was thinking that he wasn't healded until LOC.

[Mr Ares]

Graendal - most likely candidate

Lanfear - stilled, prisoner, in another world, need I go on?

Moghedian - prisoner

Mesaana - nothing against, but less for

Semirhage - her POVs rule her out

Sammael - his POVs rule him out

Bela (?) - this joke has long since worn out its welcome

Rand - his POVs rule him out

L.T.T - impossible

Isam/ Luc - hired killer, so who hired him? Also, too many assumptions

Padan Fain - RJ ruled him out

Mazrim Taim - not in Caemlyn

Logain - gentled and a prisoner

Verin - in TR with Alanna and a bunch of girls - leaves in LOC Prologue

 

I think that sums it up reasonably well. You left out Moiraine, though. Jonn will be disappointed.

[Luckers]

I think it's Semirhage but there is no proof.

 

Semirhage is one of the people we can completely rule out. She thinks about him possibly still being active after his death showing that she isn't even sure he is dead... ergo, she didn't kill him.

 

 

[Guest leebarr]

It was more then likely Graendal but lets hope bela was in a bad mood that day and needed someone to kick around

[Fastfairy]

Isn't it possible that Cadsuane killed Asmodean? She was hunting Taim and Logain - and has plenty of experience. She also comes in in the Crown of Swords which is when Robert Jordan said it should be obvious. She also fits the criteria of being believed dead. We don't know who she is really working for either - but Min said that Cadsuane would teach Rand something and in that respect she has/will become a substitute for Asmodean, even if she is not teaching Rand how to channel inevitably it will come down as to how he is to rule the people. I was just wondering what anyone else thought of this theory..... :)

[Darth_Andrea]

I'm still convinced it was slayer who killed him. Not that I can prove it but thats what I believe.

 

 

 

[glow=green,1,500]Darth_Andrea[/glow]    

[Mr Ares]

Isn't it possible that Cadsuane killed Asmodean? She was hunting Taim and Logain - and has plenty of experience. She also comes in in the Crown of Swords which is when Robert Jordan said it should be obvious. She also fits the criteria of being believed dead. We don't know who she is really working for either - but Min said that Cadsuane would teach Rand something and in that respect she has/will become a substitute for Asmodean, even if she is not teaching Rand how to channel inevitably it will come down as to how he is to rule the people. I was just wondering what anyone else thought of this theory..... :)

We are supposed to be able to work out the answer based solely on clues found in the books to the end of TFOH. I.e., when it happens, we can work it out. Cadsuane hadn't even been mentioned, so no. She doesn't work in that regard. Also, she is on Rand's side.

[cheyjade]

Isn't it possible that Cadsuane killed Asmodean?

 

Hmmm. Could be. Had she been introduced yet? If not, what would she be doing in the palace at that point?

 

I'm 2/3 of the way through Fires of Heaven right now. I think that's the right book. I'll definatly pay attention to this little mystery this read-through.

[xander]

Does anyone know if there were any occasions from the time we meet Asmo until his much debated demise, where he sees someone or someone sees him and he or they think anything odd?  A stare or lear or any a sideways glance.  Does he feel watched or anything like that? 

 

I cant remember and my books are in storage atm.  I know RJ said he thought it would have been obvious who did the deed so there muse be some clue in there.  Heck, Moraine knew about him so others would have had to have known also. 

[Jelly]

I think it was Graendal. All the reasons why have been pointed out before. :)

[Leopoled Boothe]

Graendal:

Evidence: Graendal is involved in a kabal with Rhavin thus giving her a possible reason for being in Camylen.  It is highly speculated by fans that she, Lanfear and Rhavin planned to meet in Camylen and then travel to Illian together thus placing her in Camylen at the time of Asmo's murder.  When Rand and Co arrive in Camylen she decides that this is Rhavin's problem and decides to slip away to avoid confrontation with The Dragon Reborn and let him take out one of her competators for Ne'Blis (sp).  

Motive:  Asmo happends upon her in the pantry and she must do away with him so he won't alert others to her presence.

Problems: 1. All of the above is based on speculation, it makes alot of sense, but meeting in Camylen before traveling to Illian was never specifically mentioned as part of the kabal's plan.  2. If Graendal wanted to avoid confrontation with Rand then why is she still in Camylen?  Why not open a gateway and slip out during all the comotion?  One possible answer is that she was looking for and angreal, saangreal or terangreal that Rhavin may have stashed around the palace.  This would give her a reason for being in a pantry.

Case: Strong

 

Lanfear:

Evidence:  We really don't know what happended to Lanfear between the time she fell through the doorway and when she resurfaces as Cyndane.  Particularly we don't know why the Finn's held her or if she got her three "wishes."  These wishes certainly would have given her the means to kill Asmo.  Another possibiliy is that she was not apprehended and held immediatly and was able to use some Finn artifact to open a temporary gateway into Randland thereby offending the Finns enough to imprision and eventually kill her.

Motive: her initial plan was for Rand to ultimatly rule at her side thus she provided him with a teacher in Asmo.  These plans changed, however,when she found out that Rand slept with Avi thus she decides to weaken Rand by depriving him of his teacher.

Problems:  1. All of the evidence is highly speculative, we just don't know what happend between the time Lanfear falls throught the gateway and when she resurfaces as Cyndane.  Moreover, we don' know if the Finns themselves or any of their artifacts have the power simply open a temporary gateway into Randland.  So the biggest problem is the fact that there is alot that we just don't know. 2.  Why go after Asmo?  Why not go after Avi or Rand himself?  Why not all three? The Finns do grant three wishes afterall.

Case: Moderate

 

Moghedian:

-Evidence: None.  

-Motive: None.

-Problems: She was in Camylen shortly before Asmo's murder, or in the TAR equivalent anyway, but she was under the control of Nyneave.  Moreover, neither Nyn nor Moggy could have exited TAR into the real Camylen nor could either open a gateway to let Asmo into TAR.  The only way for Nyn and Moggy to exit TAR would be to awaken in Salidar which is were they had safely returned to by the time Asmo's murder.  Moggy was miles away and safely leashed at the time of the murder.

-Case: Damned near impossible

 

Mesaana:

Evidence: None

Motive: None, except perhaps to kill a traitor.

Problems: 1. Had been mentioned but had not yet been properly introduced as a character. 2. No decernable reason to be in Camylen at the time.

Case: Very weak.

 

Semirhage:

Evidence: None

Motive: None except perhaps to kill a traitor.

Problems: 1. No decernable reason to be in Camylen 2. Ruled out by her own POV.

Case: None

 

Sammael:

Evidence: Possibly would have traveled to Camylen to find out why Rhavin, Greandal and Lanfear had not yet arrived in Illian.  Or perhaps to find out why Rand himself had not.

Motive: Keep Asmo from alerting Rand to his presence in Camylen, or to eliminate a Traitor whom he wasn't particularly fond of in the first place.

Problems: 1. Unlikely to abandon Illian when he was expecting The Dragon Reborn to be heading there (even if he was a bit late) 2. Ruled out by his own POV.

Case: None

 

Bela:

-Evidence: She's such a loyal pet that she would surely break out of her stable and track Rand to Camylen even though he Traveled there and left no scent trail.

-Motive : Having a partiularly bad day, perhaps a bur under her saddle.

-Problems:  1)She's a freakin' horse!!!!  2) Did you ever try to fit a horse into a kitchen pantry? No easy task I can assure you.

Case: None

 

Rand:  

Evidence: He certainly was in Camylen at the time.

Motive: None.

Problems1) Rand is in a meeting with Bashere at the time of the murder 2) Asmo had been cooperative and had made no attempt to escape or harm Rand or anyone close to him.  Why would Rand kill the only person who was willing and able to teach him to channel?

Case: Weak

 

L.T.T.

Evidence: Was in Camylen (or at least in a head that was in Camylen) at the time of the murder.  Plus he had "advised" Rand to kill Asmo several times before.  He certinly would kill Asmo, without hesitation, if given the chance.

Motive: The Forsaken are his sworn enemies.

Problems 1) He is a voice in someone's head and that head was in a meeting with Bashere at the time.  2) The only way he could have done it would be to completely take control of Rand's body, but Bashere reports nothing of the sort occuring during his meeting with Rand.  So unless LTT and Bashere were somehow in cahoots on the murder it just didn't happen that way.

Case: Danmed near impossible.

 

Isam/ Luc

Evidence :  In TSR RJ makes it a point to tell us not only that the Tower of Ghenji is a gateway to Finnland but also that Slayer is able to enter the tower.  Why tell us this now? The Tower's connection to Finnland won't be relevent until eight books later.  Perhaps it is because Finnland is exactly where Lanfear was at the time of the murder.  Perhaps Lanfear encountered Slayer in Finnland and ordered/bribed him to take out Rand's teacher.

Motive:  He is a killer for hire and will kill whoever he is contracted to kill (what can I say the man is a professional).  He is an agent of The Shadow and likely bound to take orders from the Forsaken.

Problems 1) All this would have had to happened in a very short amount of time.  He would have to encounter Lanfer in Finnland, recieve the order and travel form Ghenji to Camylen in about 1 day's time.  We know now that he could have accomplished this as he can travel via TAR and can spontaniously leap from TAR to the real world, however, we didn't know that at the time and so he fails the intuativly obvious test.  2) Alot of speculation is involved in this theory, but no more than that involved in the Graendal theory. 3) Why would Lanfear not also order Slayer to take out Avi and/or Rand?  

Case: Strong

 

Padan Fain:

Evedince: None.  No reason to believe he was in Camylen at the time.

Motive: Would do anything to weaken and/or hurt Rand

Problems1) RJ strait out said the Fain didn't do it, a rare thing considering his RAFO policy.  When RJ forgo's he RAFO I think we have to take him very seriously.  I really don't think we can argue with this.

Case: None

 

Mazrim Taim:

Evidence: Possibly was in Camylen at the time of the murder.  He does present himself to Rand shortly after the murder and while he states that he has just arrived we have only Taim's word to go on so it is possible that he arived in Camylen earlier than he lets on.  Moreover, RJ states that the killer should be obvious by the end of PoD and in the text between TFoH and PoD we find out alot about Taim's true motives not to mention that PoD's climax involves an attempt by Taim's Asha Man on Rand's life.

Motive: Taim wants to establish himself as Rand's right hand man.  Seeing another powerfull channeler in Rand's service he fears that this will deminish his importance in the eyes of The Dragon Reborn.  So basically he's eliminating the competition.  Moreover, if Taim is in fact a darkfriend then Asmo surley would have been able to out him.  Thus Asmo had to go before Taim revealed himself to Rand.

Problems 1) Taim has not been properly introduced as a character and thus he fails the intuativly obvious test. 2) As far as we know Taim would neither travel or use balefire at this point so could he have so effectivly elininated Asmo's body?

Case: Moderate/Strong

 

Logain:  

Evidence: None

Motive: He is a good Asha Man who often disagree's with Rand.  He would naturally want to eliminate any threat to the Black Tower and this would likley include having a Forsaken on staff.

Problems:  1) Good Asha Man?  Not yet he wasn't and certianly he could not act to defend a Black Tower that had not been establishe yet (LOL).  2). He was gentled and imprisoned in Salidar at the time.  He could not touch the OP at this point thus eliminating the possibility of traveling, so Logain was safely miles away with neither the means to get to Camylen nor to challege one of the Forsaken.  3) Would Logain recognize Asmo as one of the Forsaken? 

Case: None

 

Verin:

Evidence: None, no reason to believe she was anywhere near Camylen at the time of the murder.  But then who knows what she is capable of?

Motive:  Good gawd!!! Who knows what motivates this chic?

Problems:  She was in the Two Rivers at the time of the murder and as far as we know she can't travel.  However, no revelation about Verin could suprise me so maybe she can.

Case: Weak (possible but there is just way to much that we don't know about Verin).  

 

So there is my analysis of the suspects.  To me it seems the front runners are:

 

1. Slayer

2. Greandal

3. Taim

4. Lanfear

 

Fire away!!!!

 

[deathgate]

Good recap Leo. Your analysis of Taim make me want to re-read that book as I've always thought the intuitively obvious comment meant we should already know who it is. Your comments make me wonder whether Taim should be obvious after more of the book. He may also have the strongest motive since a couple of the others could have also taken out more than Asmo. I guess that re-read is in order (as soon as my kid gets through with it).

[Moghedian]

Did Asmodean even know who Taim was at that point? The answer is meant to be obvious from the evidence. Would Taim be obvious?

However he was in Caemlyn at the time and may have been able to travel...

[Luckers]

I agree, excellent recap. A few thoughts though...

 

Graendal:

Evidence: Graendal is involved in a Kabal with Rhavin thus giving her a possible reason for being in Camylen.  It is highly speculated by fans that she, Lanfear and Rhavin planned to meet in Camylen and then travel to Illian together thus placing her in Camylen at the time of Asmo's murder.  When Rand and Co arive in Camylen she decides that this is Rhavin's problem and decides to slip away to avoid confrontation with The Dragon Reborn and let him take out one of her competators for Ne'Blis (sp).  

Motive:  Asmo happends upon here in the Pantry and she must do away with him so he won't alert others to her presence.

Problems: 1. All of the above is based on speculation, it make alot of sense was meeting in Camylen before traveling to Illian was never specifically mentioned as part of the kabal's plan.  2. If Graendal wanted to avoid confrontation with Rand then why is she still in Camylen?  Why not open a gateway and slip out in all the comotion?  One possible answer is that she was looking for and angreal, saangreal or terangreal that Rhavin may has stashed around the palace.  This would give her a reason for being in a pantry.

Case: Strong

 

You missed Graendal's expressed certainty at Asmodean's death--she is the only character to express such a certainty besides the Dark One himself.

 

As for the problems, against the first i would add merely that we also know that none of the others knew were Graendal's base was, so that removes the only other viable meeting place i can think of, making Caemlyn more deductively reasonable. Secondly, whilst i can't answer on Graendal's behalf as to why she didn't flee immediately, i will add that it is in her nature to hang around and look for advantage--she does the same thing during the invasion of Illian in aCoS.

 

Lanfear:

Evidence:  We really don't know what happended to Lanfear between the time she fell through the doorway and when she resurfaces as Cyndane.  Particularly we don't know why the Finn's held her or if she got her three "wishes."  These wishes certainly would have given her the means to kill Asmo.  Another possibiliy is that she was not apprehended and held immediatly and was able to use some Finn artifact to open a temporary gateway into Randland and thereby offending the Finns enough to imprision and eventually kill her.

Motive: her initial plan was for Rand to ultimatly rule at her side thus she provided him with a teacher in Asmo.  These plans changed, however,when she found out that Rand slept with Avi thus she decides to weaken Rand by depriving him of his teacher.

Problems:  1. All of the evidence is highly speculative, we just don't know what happend between the time Lanfear falls throught the gateway and when she resurfaces as Cyndane.  Moreover, we know that the Finns themselves or any of their artifacts have the power simply open a temporary gateway into Randland.  So the biggest problem is the fact that there is alot that we just don't know. 2.  Why go after Asmo?  Why not go after Avi or Rand himself?  Why not all three? The Finns do grant three wishes afterall.

Case: Moderate

 

I think you misrepresent Lanfear here, because we do know some of what happened to her on the other side of that door, and can deduce more logically. We know that she and Moiraine were severed at the moment they fell through the door, we know that Lanfear was held against her will for a period of time--and somehow i cannot see six hours classifying as such a period. We know that their trip through the door severed a highly valued source of trade for the Finns, thus making it insanely unlikely that they proceeded to grant wishes, and in the process more than probably caused a fire of the like that was witnessed on this side--thus light, thus breaking the treaty, making it impossible.

 

We may not yet be able to state that the case against her is impossible, but at the best its weak. Very weak.

 

Rand:  

Evidence: He certainly was in Camylen at the time.

Motive: None.

Problems1) Rand is in a meeting with Bashere at the time of the murder 2) Asmo had been cooperative and had made no attempt to escape or harm Rand or anyone close to him.  Why would Rand kill the only person who was willing and able to teach him the channel?

Case: Weak

 

Also Rand rules himself out, he still to this day thinks Asmodean is alive.

 

Isam/ Luc

Evidence :  In TSR RJ makes it a point to tell us not only that the Tower of Ghenji is a gateway to Finnland but also that Slayer is able to enter the tower.  Why tell us this now? The Tower's connection to Finnland won't be relevent until eight books later.  Perhaps it is because Finnland is exactly where Lanfear was at the time of the murder.  Perhaps Lanfear encountered Slayer in Finnland and order/bribed him to take out Rand's teacher.

Motive:  He is a killer for hire and will kill who he is contracted to kill (what can I say the man is a professional).  He is an agent of The Shadow and likely bound to take orders from the Forsaken.

Problems 1) All this would have had to happened in a very short amount of time.  He would have to encounter Lanfer in Finnland, recieve the order and travel form Ghenji to Camylen in about 1 day's time.  We know now that he could do it as he can travel via TAR and can spontaniouls leap for TAR to the real world, however, we didn't know that at the time and so he fails the intuativly obvious test.  2) Alot of speculation is involved in this theory, but no more than that involved in the Graendal theory. 3) Why would Lanfear not also order Slayer to take out Avi and/or Rand?  

Case: Strong

 

 

There is also the problem that Lanfear had no reason to tell Slayer to go to Caemlyn. She thought Rand was poised to attack Illian, and nothing in their fight revealed that to her. I would also phrase this case as being weak--Slayer by happenstance being in Finnland, hearing of Lanfears arrival, finding her past the guards that were, by her own words, holding her, getting out of there, travelling to Cairhein to learn that Asmodean was in Caemlyn--when almost no one knew that--travelling to Caemlyn, searching the palace and happening to find Asmodean, then somehow managing to kill him even though the man could still channel enough to fight.

 

I would say thats a very weak presentation. Weaker than even Lanfears.

 

Mazrim Taim:

Evidence: Possibly was in Camylen at the time of the murder.  He does present himself to Rand shortly after the murder and while he states that he has just arived we have only Taim's word to go on so it is possible that he arived in Camylen earlier than he lets on.  Moreover, RJ states that the killer should be obvious by the end of PoD and in the text between TFoH and PoD we find out alot about Taim's true motives not to mention that PoD's climax involves an attempt by Taim's Asha Man on Rand's life.

Motive: Taim wants to establish himself as Rand's right hand man.  Seeing another powerfull channeler in Rand's service he fears that this will deminish his importance in the eyes of The Dragon Reborn.  So basically he's eliminating the competition.  Moreover, if Taim is in fact a darkfriend then Asmo surley would have been able to out him.  Thus Asmo had to go before Taim revealed himself to Rand.

Problems 1) Taim has not been properly introduced as a character and thus he fails the intuativly obvious test. 2) As far as we know Taim would neither travel or use balefire at this point so could he have so effectivly elininated Asmo's body.

Case: Moderate/Strong

 

All that i have to add to this is that Moiraine got completely rid of Merean's body in New Spring without using either. The only real issue i have with Taim is that he fails the obviousness test, and that the way Asmodean stumbled upon his killer suggests a skulker, and that doesn't really fit Taim's blunt methodology.

 

So for me, it's definately Graendal that did it, with the only other viable option being Taim. I would say all others can be pretty much ruled out totally.

[Leopoled Boothe]

Good recap Leo. Your analysis of Taim make me want to re-read that book as I've always thought the intuitively obvious comment meant we should already know who it is. Your comments make me wonder whether Taim should be obvious after more of the book. He may also have the strongest motive since a couple of the others could have also taken out more than Asmo. I guess that re-read is in order (as soon as my kid gets through with it).

 

To be clear the "intuativly obvious" comment was meant to imply that we should be able to figure out the identity of the killer base solely on evidence contained in the first five books.  This is what I'm refering to when I use the term "the intuativly obvious test."  However, I have long since decided that RJ's idea of intuatily obvious is very differnt from my own, thus I don't put much stock in the intuativly obvious test.  While we didn't actually meet Taim until LOC he was mentioned several times before this so it is possible that RJ believed that what he had told us about Taim was enough for us to identify him as the killer.

 

RJ used the term "obvious" a second time when he stated the the ID of the killer should be blantently obvious by the end of "Path of Daggers."  

[Luckers]

Graendal's the only one that immediately fulfils the obviousness test, to my mind. Asmodean was killed by someone known to him--obvious answer Forsaken. The Forsaken we knew at the time were Lanfear, Rhavin, Moghedian, Graendal and Sammael. Lanfear seemingly died a few chapters ago, Rhavin just died, Moghedian was captured leaving Graendal and Sammael.

 

Sammael was supposedly waiting for Rand to attack. Graendal was supposed to be somewhere she could meet up with Rhavin and Lanfear.

 

The obvious test reveals Graendal. The others have logical argumetns that support them, and could reveal their presense and connection to the crime, but the only one who could be suggested by obviousness is Graendal. Or, failing her, maybe Sammael, but we know it wasn't him.

 

RJ used the term "obvious" a second time when he stated the the ID of the killer should be blantently obvious by the end of "Path of Daggers." 

 

Could you provide that quote... merely curious, i just don't think ive seen it.

[Leopoled Boothe]

Graendal's the only one that immediately fulfils the obviousness test, to my mind. Asmodean was killed by someone known to him--obvious answer Forsaken.

Not necessarly.  Slayer is an agent of The Shadow and Taim very likely is also, thus either very well may have been known to Asmo.

 

Graendal was supposed to be somewhere she could meet up with Rhavin and Lanfear.

Are you absoultly sure about this?  Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't remember any meeting place at all being mentioned in the kaba's plans.  For all we know they planned to individually travel to Illian.  It would make more sense to meet up first and then travel to Illian but as has been illustrated several times the Forsaken are not immune to stupidity.

 

Lanfear seemingly died a few chapters ago.

 

I dunno, to me neither Lanfear nor Moiraine ever seemingly died.  Infact their suposed deaths were very ambiguious.  Personally,  I never believed for a second that either was actually dead (er permenantly dead that is).

 

RJ used the term "obvious" a second time when he stated the the ID of the killer should be blantently obvious by the end of "Path of Daggers." 

 

Could you provide that quote... merely curious, i just don't think ive seen it.

 

No, sorry.  You have to realize that I'll read every interview, speech, letter, dictation or grafiti on a bathroom wall if it is penned by Robert Jordan.  So I couldn't possibly pinpoint when or where I came across this.  I admittedly rely heavily on memory, but do try to be accurate as possible.  I know that I read this first hand at some point, and I've seen others refer to it on this site.

 

And yes, I'll admit that the time factor is a huge problem with the Slayer theory.  The only reason I still maintain it is because Slayer is the only suspect who has any concrete clues pointing toward him, namely RJ's seemingly superfluous revelation that Ghengi is a portal to Finnland and that Slayer can enter it.  Graendal does have a very strong case against her, however, at the end of TFOH it is based totally on process of elimination and not on any concrete clues pointing toward her.   Don't get me wrong I won't be one bit suprised if she does turn out to be the murderer, I switch back and forth between Slayer and Graendal pretty much on a daily basis.  Today just happens to be a Slayer day.  I'm sure I'll wake up tomorrow convinced that Graendal done it.

[Luckers]

Not necessarly.  Slayer is an agent of The Shadow and Taim very likely is also, thus either very well may have been known to Asmo.

 

Asmodean knew neither as far as we know, and Taim was a very new character which we were a blank slate on, and Slayer had no involvement with that line of plot at all. Again, there are arguments that support and purport both as the killer, but neither were obvious. The obvious answer, immediately upon his death by someone he knew (and feared), was that a Forsaken had done it. There's no ifs and buts about it--because, you know... 'obvious'.

 

Quote

Graendal was supposed to be somewhere she could meet up with Rhavin and Lanfear.

 

Are you absoultly sure about this?  Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't remember any meeting place at all being mentioned in the kaba's plans.  For all we know they planned to individually travel to Illian.  It would make more sense to meet up first and then travel to Illian but as has been illustrated several times the Forsaken are not immune to stupidity.

 

I'm absolutely sure about it, and you stated it yourself. For clarity, i never said that a meeting place had been arranged, merely that Graendal was supposed to be somewhere where she could meet up with them.

 

Remember we are arguing the obviousness issue here. Connection is the nessasary contributor, and at that exact moment they had just enacted a plan (by attempting to kill Mat) which would have required that Graendal be somewhere were Lanfear could reach her immediately when Rand made his move. That was the plan, Lanfear watched, and when Rand moved against Sammael she gathered Rhavin and Graendal and they attacked him.

 

Now, that immediately suggests Graendal be in either Illian or Caemlyn when Rand attacks--since Lanfear had no idea where Lady Basne's mansion was. Caemlyn makes more sense, since Rhavin was there--and thats all you need. Obviousness remember.

 

I dunno, to me neither Lanfear nor Moiraine ever seemingly died.  Infact their suposed deaths were very ambiguious.  Personally,  I never believed for a second that either was actually dead (er permenantly dead that is).

 

 

Irrelevant. From RJ's perspective obviousness rules her out. She died, and even if he anticipated people saying 'well, maybe she didn't' he still couldn't claim that as intuitively obvious. At that stage there was only Moiraine's thread of hope... nothing else.

 

 

No, sorry.  You have to realize that I'll read every interview, speech, letter, dictation or grafiti on a bathroom wall if it is penned by Robert Jordan.  So I couldn't possibly pinpoint when or where I came across this.  I admittedly rely heavily on memory, but do try to be accurate as possible.  I know that I read this first hand at some point, and I've seen others refer to it on this site.

 

Indeed. So have i which is why i was curious not to have seen it, but meh.

 

And yes, I'll admit that the time factor is a huge problem with the Slayer theory.  The only reason I still maintain it is because Slayer is the only suspect who has any concrete clues pointing toward him, namely RJ's seemingly superfluous revelation that Ghengi is a portal to Finnland and that Slayer can enter it.  Graendal does have a very strong case against her, however, at the end of TFOH it is based totally on process of elimination and not on any concrete clues pointing toward her.  Don't get me wrong I won't be one bit suprised if she does turn out to be the murderer, I switch back and forth between Slayer and Graendal pretty much on a daily basis.  Today just happens to be a Slayer day.  I'm sure I'll wake up tomorrow convinced that Graendal done it.

 

But how is Slayer entering the Tower of Ghenjei concrete towards him killing Asmodean in Caemlyn? I mean, if this was a Who Killed Lanfear thread i might totally be bowing, but Lanfear didn't even know Asmodean would be in Caemlyn. There is no causative connection between that fact and the death of Asmodean.

 

And incidently, the use of the word intuitive implies there would be no direct evidence in books 1 through 5.

 

[cheyjade]

Luckers and Leopold:

 

That's some very well thought out discussion there. I feel enlightend now. :)

 

The posts the two of you just made, especially Leopold's recap, have pretty much convinced me that it probably wasn't Lanfear. Now I have to agree that it's most likely Graendal, with Slayer a close second.