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Women and Men: a Calm Discussion (No Sexim Here Please)


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In the stories, there always seem to be sparks between the females and the males...

 

In the third book, when Mat saves the three girls from The Forsaken, the Black Ajah, from the Heart of the Stone, in Tear, they don't even bother to thank him. And even when they apologize to him later, Elayne seems to get extremely angry...

 

Perrin has some insane trouble with Faile, and she even considers cheating on him in KoD!!!

 

Mat gets some serious headaches from Tuon (although it does work out in the end.)

 

Thom and his various lovers always end with him exiled/in trouble...

 

Don't even get me started on Rand and the Harem...

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Men and women have different thought processes IMO. The sparks come from the fact that the man and the woman may have a different path to achieving an outcome of an event. RJ made his characters particularly stubborn and hot-headed in many cases, which is probably why sparks seem to fly on a regular basis.

 

One of the best things about RJ's characters is that he bases them on real life, emotions get in the way, mistakes are made, arguments happen. Elayne's two letters to Rand (as Rand sees it) are incredibly confusing to him, one seeming to contradict the other emotionally.

 

Nynaeve, Elayne and Egwene probably didn't thank Mat at first because they don't want their pride damaged (please keep in mind this is only my opinion). RJ's women, especially Nynaeve, like to think that they can get along just fine without help.

 

Faile is a firecracker. I think she just wants to see how far she can goad Perrin. She's testing her boundaries. Not a particularly nice way to do, but then I've never really cared for Faile as a character.

 

Admittedly I think who the reader backs in an argument depends on the POV at the time, simply because RJ details the thoughts and reasons of that character only. I'm just babbling now, I'd like to see what others think of it.

 

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Admittedly I think who the reader backs in an argument depends on the POV at the time, simply because RJ details the thoughts and reasons of that character only.

 

Actually I think it depends on your gender. For example in the KOR when Rand looses his hand Min Rand must be in shock and has to have time to mourn his loss D. Bashere on the other hand (no pun intended) accepts with a grunt Rand's explaination that he will have to relearn to use the sword since most of the forms he knows are two handed,  Men are generally raised not to be in touch with their feelings but to deal with the reality of the situation-- "its a waste of time to worry about spilled milk".  I know this is a gross exaggeration but the generel thought applies.  I often find myself in hysterical laughter or utterly dumbfounded by the rationale that Nanyeave(sp, Egwene and Elayne(sp) give for there thoughts and actions while I'm usually accepting of those of Perrin, Mat and Rand.  Not that I agree with their actions or thoughts but I see why and how the came to to conclusions they did. 

 

This is one of the strengths of RJ women and men think differently in real life and so do his characters

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Let's switch to Faile for a moment. Does she really want Perrin to go all BDSM on her or something? And what's with all of the farmgirl references she makes? is it kinky to be a farmgirl in Saldea?

 

"New DVD out now! Introducing 'Saldean Farmgirls Gone Wild: Andor'! Watch the prim, proper Andoran royalty be turned to the wild side by the wicked swaying moves of the sa'sara! Must be 18+ to order, shipping and handling fees do apply."

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Let's switch to Failed for a moment. Does she really want Perrin to go all BDSM on her or something? And what's with all of the farmgirl references she makes? is it kinky to be a farm girl in Saldea?

 

Saldean women seem to believe that if their men are not yelling at them they are being condescending.  Logic runs something like if you do not put me in my place you do so because you see me as weak and unable to handle the abuse.  Not very rational but then again we are talking about the daughter of a women who sees pulling a knife on her husband as polite conversation. (Yea I know the mother didn't really pull a knife on Bashere but I think its only because she has not thought of it).

 

Faile was hiding the fact that she was the daughter of a powerful lord and in line to be Queen of Saldea by saying that her father was a farmer and sometimes a merchant.  And yes Saldean farm girls appear to be pretty "randy".  HMMM- they would definitely teach Tairen lordlings a few things.

 

 

 

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In the stories, there always seem to be sparks between the females and the males...

 

In real life, there always seem to be sparks between the females and the males ...

Light knows I've carried flint and tinder to the club on many a night.  ;)

 

 

;D

 

 

What confuses me is that perhaps all women in the books are stubborn, strong-willed and arrogant (for some), whether peasants or nobles. Is that an accurate reflection of real life?

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Yeah pretty much, but I think RJ emphasises it a little, especially with Elayne and Nynaeve.

 

All women have something that really gets to them, that winds them up something chronic.

 

Unfortunately for Nynaeve it's insolence, and having spent so much time around Mat she spends a lot of time 'hmmphing'.

 

Faile i can almost understand. She's a feisty woman, she's been raised to be a 'vixen' - she's fiery and argumentative and any man who just defers to her, she sees him as being condescending towards her in a "ahhh, look at little zariney-weeney, getting all upset, there there, pat on the head" type of way. she wants him to argue back at her to prove that he respects her, thinks that she is worthy of disagreeing with, that her opinions are valued to him - even in a negative way. She's determined not to be a lapdog type of wife, looking pretty on Perrin's arm whilst he makes all of the decisions. And in the same way she wants HIM to be argumentative and loud with the other nobles so that they dont act condescendingly towards him. Yes i think she's ambitious on behalf of Perrin but what else do you expect from the cousin of the Queen of Saldea, a woman who's father is the Queen's favourite uncle?

 

Egwene i think is pretty natural - she's been raised in the same village as Mat and Rand, is a little younger and has become the 'overly-mature' girl. She's had years of pretending to be too mature to find Mat's pranks funny, and that has stuck with her.

 

Elayne is a princess, and is now finding herself somewhat in Egwene's shoes - she's trying very hard to remember she's not 'normal' like Mat and his men, but finding it very hard. The only way she can keep 'herself' is to be haughty and stick her nose in the air. I think if she knew her mother were alive she'd change.

 

 

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Egwene, to me, initially fills the role of an annoying precocious brat, the kind who likes to act like she's 'all grown up'. She's smart and has a lot of potential to fill whatever role she's put into. When she begins, she is only the Wisdom's apprentice, but as time goes on, she's constantly being refitted into increasingly bigger shoes. It really attributes to her growth because when she began she was simply a brat who thought she knew everything there was to know, now she's been all over the continent, with more experiences under her belt to mature her than most Aes Sedai get in their lifetimes. That's what makes her one of my favourite characters.

 

Back on topic though, one thing that really made me do a spit-take was when Min took out that whip/flogging thingy and threatened Rand with it. I was like, "OMGWTF?!" I think if anyone's into the BDSM, it's not the Saldaeans, it's the Far Madding wenches :o

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The women in WOT, isn't completly realistic. RJ overdid it, by some degree.

Egwene is a *=-32498$##$^&@&*"....forgive my language....can't help it. I must applaude RJ for creating such an annoying character.

Egwene is enjoying some very juicy Taveren luck..though it escapes me why RJ hasn't declared her one. Or Rand being who he is helped her gain the position she holds now. I am sure she will be rescued by some none-Taveren luck at AMOL.

 

I like all three Rand girls(and all that will be born). Elayne is a noble woman to boot...so nose in the air and full of confident is necessary.

Min perfect.Aviendha, a former Far dari mai and a future wise one....so no argument there.

 

Faile...my second hated female....she even made me hate Perrin.

Least favourite male would be..Perrin, Gawyn.

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I would pay to see "Saldean Girls Gone Wild"  ;D

 

Flint and tinder is a good idea, I'm going to try it  ;D

 

Faile makes me kind of angry sometimes, but then again, I'm the type who likes to have an argument, as long as the argument doesn't escalate too far...

 

Nynaeve really was the devil at the beginning, but Rand+Egwene toned her down enough for me to actually kind of like her...

 

Egwene drives me crazy, she's way too blind to see what everyone should see. She never asks Rand any vital questions, refuses to see what Rand must do (save the entire world), questions his sanity, vows to teach him manners? I think she needs to learn some manners first...

 

Avienda is not so bad, and Elayne is just really rich, and rich people generally are more like her, so no surprise there...

 

Cadsuane is the only women that I hate, but really love RJ for putting in the book for. She adds the element of laughter/disbelief, while she shows the supreme arrogance of the Aes Sedai. She made me laugh so hard when she started whupping on Rands @$$...  ;D

 

Basically, most of the women drive me crazy.

 

Thank God that most of the owmen in real life aren't nearly like those in tWoT, or at least the ones I'm associated with aren't...

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Regarding Cdsuane, I think some of the emotive reaction comes from her treatment of Rand- there's a certain "oh, the guy's got it hard enough" defensiveness about his character.

 

Regarding the women: Meet Jordan's wife, whom all his women are based on to some degree.

 

In specific: Jordan was good with socialization.

 

Elayne was raised a princess. She *knows* she's better than other people, and when she treats others like equals, she has the class bias to assume they feel honored. She's a good example.

 

More generally:

 

Trollocs eat a lot of people, but there's still a lot of Borderlanders. A+B=C, Borderlanders guys and gals are both pretty frisky. Apparently, Saldaean women are known for it.

 

Then again, Jordan does like to drive home the point he raised in New Spring, about men going into danger and their women wanting to have their child to remember them by, just in case- in a place like the Borderlands, where military service isn't just mandatory but you will see combat, it's hard not to expect certain laxities on sexual matters behind closed doors.

 

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About Faile wanting Perrin to shout at her and treat her roughly, to demonstrate that he cares, there is a real world example of that. An uncle of mine was driving down a road here in Guatemala, when he saw an Indian (Mayan) hitting his wife. He parked the car and tried to make him stop, but then the woman turned on my uncle and started hitting him. "It's none of your business, my husband hits me because he loves me!!!"  ;D

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Thats a abused woman and abused women think they deserve it and won't put a stop to it and normaly end up dead. And any argument that it's a cultural thing just shows ignoriance. No man should ever hit a woman unless his life or someone else's is on the line. No matter the culture it's wrong, Saudi Araba (sp!) is a perfect example, in the last week I heard that a woman was raped her rapists was given jail time and then the court ordered the woman to serve jail time and to take a public 200 lashes for being with a man who was not her husband. THAT IS INSANE AND SHOULD BE STOPPED, anyone disagree with that? *glare*

 

 

[glow=green,1,500]Darth_Andrea[/glow]

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First

 

To Darth Andrea:

 

Case you mentioned is the topic of a thread in the General Discussion/Debate and Discussions forums.  Look it up if your interested in viewing other people's views on it.

 

To get back on point, Faile does not want to be physically abused she wants Perrin to acknowledge that not only does he believe she is his equal (by treating her as he would treat any other equal-raise his voice when yelled at get into a shouting match if argument gets heated). Now, this seems quite strange to Perrin who because of his large physic has always tried to be soft spoken and restrained.  After all he is probably aware that in a contest of brute strength he could kick everybody's bottom.  Now, Faile's attitude is not as hair-brained or immature when you think about it.  Perrin respected, feared and to a certain extent was in awe of Moraine. Nevertheless in the Third Book he gets agitated with Moraine's attitude/actions and not only confronts her but raises his voice.  Faile saw this so when her jealousy runs away with her or when she simply does or says something stupid she expects Perrin to confront her. When he doesn't she reasons that he does not see her as an equal but as a child.

 

Second

 

Quote:

 

Regarding Cadsuane, I think some of the emotive reaction comes from her treatment of Rand- there's a certain "oh, the guy's got it hard enough" defensiveness about his character.

 

True, but Cadsuane is also correct Rand's hardening into a person that would sacrifice anything and anybody in order to win at TG.  This is necessary but coupled with his growing powers it could be disastrous (I could imagine him in desperation using the surviving Ter' Angrealsp)- the one he used to cleanse the male half of the power-- to generate one tremendous bolt of balefire against the DO). This is especially true after he wins the battle; a arrogant Rand with the Ter Angreal and an army of Ashaman would do things that the white cloaks and Seanchen could not even imagine A.S. doing in their worse nightmares.  Plus, look at what Cadsuane has actually done or not done to be more precisely.  She has advised Rand to do things but never forced him to to something that with some thought he would not of done himself.

 

Third:

 

I think that RJ spot on in his characterization of his female characters.  Every woman I have ever known has a bit of Nynaeve, Elaine, Egwene, Avi,Faile,Tuone, Moraine, Cadsuane and Verin in them.  From the gestures that every female seems to share, the your just a man so what can you know attitude, to the inability to let good enough alone,  women in my life (mother sisters, cousins, friends, business partners, and wife) are all too close to the female characters in WOT. Thus, I find myself smiling at the frustrations of Rand, Mat, Perrin, Bashere, etc.( :D ;D :D ;))

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The great irony about it is that these all powerful women who have ruled the world for three thousand years must trust all hope to a young man who is more powerful than they could ever dream of.

 

In my opinion, the women in this series are way over the top. That's all that can be said. I think they are overly flawed and find reading about them completely annoying. The only ones who have any sense are Moraine, Aviendha, and Cadsuane.

 

No man should ever hit a woman unless his life or someone else's is on the line.

 

And no woman should ever hit a man, unless she's in the same situation.

 

YK.

 

 

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I like most of the females, specially Cadsuane.

 

A great character, she does what she wants, and has actually been out of the tower long enough to have some general idea how mundane people think. None of that, "you should be right to fear the tower, 'When the Amyrlin stirs, thrones tremble'." BS that most of the insecure Aes Sedai blubber all the time. Cadsuane is more, "this is how it's going to be, if you don't agree, though, I'll make you agree." and actually back up the threat with real action. I don't really like the way she's behaving with Rand, but then again, I don't really like the way Rand is behaving with anyone. :)

 

I won't even go into the whole Faile - Perrin situation. Faile rubs me 100% the wrong way.

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The only ones who have any sense are Moraine, Aviendha, and Cadsuane.

 

LOL, Cadsuane does has sense, but she's going to make Rand explode, and then we'll see another Aes Sedai death. Moiraine is cool, but Aviendha is Aiel, and no one understands how crazy she is. She wants to run from Rand, except she's in mad love with him, except she hates him, except she loves him, except she's crazy. She can't control her emotions at all, or just doesn't care enough to, she's one of the craziest characters in the story.

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None of that, "you should be right to fear the tower

 

True, with her around your onlt thoufht should be , "I fear her,". But I agree  she is one of the few A.S. that does not hide behind I am an A.S. bs.  Also she genuine respects non-channelers(at least as much as she respects channelers. She was genuinely peeved that she had to destroy the confidence of the head of the Far Madding government. She did it but was sorry it had to be done.

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I've had to give a lot of thought on how RJ wrote the women in these books (because they drive me crazy at times.) So a few things to consider:

 

When we first meet Egwene, she's what, 16? What 16 year old girl doesn't think she knows it all? At the end of KOD, she's 20, 21? I'm 29 and I remember what I was like at that age, I still thought I knew it all. As Amyrlin, she has a pretty steep learning curve. I think considering her youth, the fact that as of 4 years ago she was the daughter of the Mayor in a small backwater that barely anyone has heard of (except for the tabac) and the fact that the Salidar sisters thought to use her as their puppet, she's done a pretty good job for herself. Yes, she has Siuan advising her, but she's even managed to put Siuan in her place.

 

I like Egwene. I think out of all the women (besides Min) I like her the most. She's made some bad decisions in regards to Rand, but that's just an indication of her youth, and the fact that she can't see Rand objectively. I have no doubt that she understands what he has to make it to TG and save the world. But she was also comes from the same village as him, she was his sweetheart, she was going to marry him. They have a history. She sees his behavior as inexcusable. Not how a good Two Rivers man conducts himself. Egwene has the advantage/disadvantage of not really seeing Rand as the DR. She sees him as Rand al Thor. It's hard, especially when you're young, to see people in a different light.

 

Take the Two Rivers girls who came to the Salidar Tower. Egwene had to put some effort in changing their perceptions of her. As far they were concerned, she was just the daughter of Bran alVere who had gotten above herself. I see the same thing applies here with her realtionship with Rand. Rand is going to have change her perception of him if the dynamic between the Amyrlin and DR change. Although, it may not. Didn't Elaida foretell that he would kneel to the Amyrlin? I personally think it's another misinterpretation of Elaida's and that meant Egwene, not Elaida.

 

Nynaeve: I've always just seen her as a bully who's willing to resrt to violence to get her way. Does anyone know the back story on her? I think that would be something that would be tempered by her mother but I don't think I've ever read Nynaeve thinking about her mother the way the others from the TR have done in their POVs. Nynaeve has had to do a LOT of growing up, even though she was the oldest of the group from the TR. She's having to learn that there's much more to be said about subtlety than clobbering someone over the head. Whether it be with a club, or the one power.

 

Elayne: As someone said, she's rich and she's a princess. And she's soon to be crowned queen. She will always be different.

 

Avienda: Avienda is Aiel.

 

Min: I really like Min. I think of all the women written, she's the least complicated. I love that about her. I may be a woman but I'm not into the mind games. I think I identify the most with Min because she's pretty straight forward. And she doesn't sniff nearly as much.

 

Faile: I don't exactly dislike Faile. The problem with Perrin and Faile is that they're from different worlds. Those of us from Western culture identify with Perrin because he comes from a place that closely resembles what we're used to. Faile's culture is foreign to us so it's hard to understand. How she handles her marriage is perfectly normal where she comes from. And let's not forget, she of the same rank as Elayne was when we first met her; next in line for the throne. She comes from a very rich and priviledged background. Her take on things are going to be a little skewered.

 

I have to admit that I've wondered about her ideas on Saldean famrgirls. Considering she's noble, is it all based on rumors? Or are they really like that? How much experience does she actually have with them? Saldean farmgirls may be notorious because of a couple of hussies who went after the wrong woman's hubby. Or they could all be scandalous. ;)

 

Aes Sedai: These women are breed to be haughty. They honestly believe might is right. They can channel,and they've purposely cultivated their reputation. How many times have we seen one of them channel to get their way? Someone doesn't repsond in the way they want, they give them a lesson? I have to admit I really enjoy it when an Aes Sedai tries to punish Mat and nothing happens. I can't blame him for wearing that medallion.

 

Anyways, I like that RJ has started to change things as Randland enters into the next age. People aren't quite as fearful of Aes Sedai as they once were. I've been waiting or these women to be taken down a peg because no one likes a bully. And that's what Aes Sedai have been, bullies who play with an unfair advantage. If they can't get their way with manipulation or fear, they resort to brute force.

 

As a woman, I can see myself in some of these characters, at least, some qualities. But not all women are like this. I'm not like this. But then again, I know plenty of women who are. But it's also another world where things aren't going to be like they are here.

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I agree Cabriana with your assessment on Min, it's nice to know not all girls play head games.

 

Egwene is certainly young I had to verify the age because I was certain she was 18 when the story started. The books have also only spanned two years so she's probably 20 at most. That IS young to take the reins of a govermental seat such as the Aes Sedai and their WT.

 

I agree that Egwene needs to change her perspective on Rand, sure he needs help but in the end he IS the DR.

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Nynave's is a jerk.

 

Egwene's a stuck up jerk.

 

Elayne's a stuck up jerk by birth.

 

Faile is rediculous.

 

Aes Sedai are jerks by association.

 

You want equality? There you go. Men treating women like the the women treat the men in this series would be met with such anger and self-righteousness by the female readers of this series it would be amazing how quickly the books would have stopped. Min and Avi are the only ones who don't really fall into the "jerk" category.

 

The women in general in this series ARE jerks. Sexist, egotistical jerks. I'm not saying they make the reading uninteresting. I love this series. I'm suggesting that the majority of them are sexist, egotisitcal jerks.

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