S3E5 - Tel’aran’rhiod

[SinisterDeath]

  On 3/28/2025 at 8:23 PM, Elder_Haman said:

Negative. They were not topless. That's a deal breaker.

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Careful, Rafe's going to make it so when they're out to Sea, all the Seafolk sail bottomless!

Dangly bits just flapping in the wind, as all the guys just stand around free balling it. They stand out on the Mast lookin' for land... 

Don't go lookin' up or you might see the Taint that winks back.

[Yamezt]

I will take a wild guess that I enjoyed e5 more than most people 😅

 

Costume department are great - Matt's dream wearing a mini horn round his neck made me chuckle

[king of nowhere]

  On 3/28/2025 at 3:12 PM, Mailman said:

 

Well firstly the first sister ceremony is not a marriage. They literally become sisters, birthed again and imbued with a magical bond of basically becoming a twin sister. If they keep the bond and ceremony the same as the books and have them sleeping together it is going to be incredibly close to incestuous.

 

Yes Elayne and Avi spend far more time together than they do with Rand but it is not sexual in nature they are sisters holding each other. This I believe is a queer person seeing something that is simply not there and I will again reference the fact that the first sisters ceremony involves a birthing element. I am not against Rands ladies having a more physical relationship but it should not be between sisters unless the show is advocating for a truly incestuous intent. I respect the issues his mormon upbringing coupled with his sexuality must have caused, but this is truly not the relationship that occurred in the books.

 

I really like the talk about not setting the sexual identity of the character as that characters main defining trait. A real problem in a lot of the increased prominence of female and gay leads is that it is those very characteristics are their main ones.

 

However, I don't believe that he has followed this. I have never disliked the idea that we could see an expanded physical relationship between Moiraine and Siuane. My problem is that it has super ceded their defining trait which was the single-minded desire to find and guide the Dragon and thus save the world. It began with the FFH ter'angreal being used for a hookup and when they finally had the meeting there they had sex before discussing the fact that Moiraine had found the Dragon which had been there most important goal of the past 20 years and their lives. And then this episode he has broken down the worldbuilding and storytelling to throw these characters at each other again by using Egwene.

 

 

 

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You seem to forget that, by the book, being sisters is a strict requirement for a double marriage. The two girls must take each other as sisters before they can propose to the same men.

It's not incest, they are not blood related

 

Actually, tgey could be blood related, the aiel would not care

Edited Friday at 09:00 PM by king of nowhere

[Turin Turambar]

  On 3/28/2025 at 8:57 PM, Yamezt said:

I will take a wild guess that I enjoyed e5 more than most people 😅

 

Costume department are great - Matt's dream wearing a mini horn round his neck made me chuckle

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Really?!? I didn't notice that. I enjoyed this episode immensely. While it didn't have the epic moments from the books (I've been waiting to see the glass columns scenes for a long time), it had great emotional things. All the dream interactions were touching. In all it seemed to really humanise the characters. 

[Ithillian Turambar]

  On 3/28/2025 at 4:05 PM, SinisterDeath said:

you don't actually have to respond to everyone post you see.

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I did really well at not responding to Susan being gay.

 

 

[SinisterDeath]

  On 3/28/2025 at 8:57 PM, Yamezt said:

Costume department are great - Matt's dream wearing a mini horn round his neck made me chuckle

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[Ithillian Turambar]

Yeah I missed that too! That's so cool.

[DreadLord31]

  On 3/28/2025 at 8:21 PM, SinisterDeath said:

Look at their Clothes, and Hairstyle. You can show culture through clothing and hair style rather than race and ethnicity.

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Costuming and casting for the show has been golden. Best part of the show. 
Sooo not that hard or expensive to put some red wigs on people 😉 

[Kaleb]

  On 3/28/2025 at 3:12 PM, Mailman said:

I really like the talk about not setting the sexual identity of the character as that characters main defining trait. A real problem in a lot of the increased prominence of female and gay leads is that it is those very characteristics are their main ones.

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I liked that part of the interview too, where Rafe described how excited Pike was to be able to play a character who doesn't wear "gay" or "straight" or other identities as a defining trait. And I disagree on the second point here. In my opinion, the show follows through on the idea of presenting queerness as a normal unremarkable thing. The characters DON'T view each other's sexual attraction as a defining trait, it's simply a personal preference that is barely remarked. For the most part, the show expands on Jordan's proposal for a largely sex-positive world with minimal homophobia, and we - the viewers - are the ones bringing our real-world baggage where it's not really appropriate.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

  On 3/28/2025 at 9:14 PM, Ithillian Turambar said:

I did really well at not responding to Susan being gay.

 

 

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Hey, just leave Susan out of this. What has she done to you? 

Edited Friday at 09:48 PM by HeavyHalfMoonBlade
Bah.

[Elder_Haman]

  On 3/28/2025 at 9:45 PM, Kaleb said:

I liked that part of the interview too, where Rafe described how excited Pike was to be able to play a character who doesn't wear "gay" or "straight" or other identities as a defining trait. And I disagree on the second point here. In my opinion, the show follows through on the idea of presenting queerness as a normal unremarkable thing. The characters DON'T view each other's sexual attraction as a defining trait, it's simply a personal preference that is barely remarked. For the most part, the show expands on Jordan's proposal for a largely sex-positive world with minimal homophobia, and we - the viewers - are the ones bringing our real-world baggage where it's not really appropriate.

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I have to agree here. There's a big difference between making a character gay and making a character gay - such that gayness is that person's only interesting characteristic. The former is great and reflective of real life. The latter sucks and reeks of preachiness.

[Mailman]

  On 3/28/2025 at 5:25 PM, Elder_Haman said:

I think you are underestimating what is being set up by that scene. You're overlooking one of the most impactful story beats of the entire series.

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I am aware of the current thought line that this will replace the Tear scene. I am fine with that scene being moved although without Callandor it will make it harder to replicate his feeling of being filled with so much of the power that he can literally do anything.

 

The scene in the book did not require him having an attachment to the child and worked very well, again not saying that having said attachment could not work well here.

 

What I am questioning is the jokey way the introduction was handled. Rand has just become the Car'a'can and learned that he will destroy basically the entire Aiel nation as his future, he has also just learned and experienced the entire history of the Aiel nation and their fall and shame. Having Rand be all jokey and happy in this scene is jarring considering everything he has just experienced.

 

The fact that the child knows of the Car'a'can would indicate that his upcoming role is not a secret to the general populace and so to a lesser extent her role is also questionable.

 

Would have been a fine scene if you had made their meeting more sombre and reflective especially from Rand POV.

[Mailman]

  On 3/28/2025 at 7:57 PM, DreadLord31 said:

Rand's relationships - I mean - if you are trying to being an apologist that a polygamous relationship could be alright - I can see that. But from everything I've ever heard and read about actual polygamous marriages in history and our world -- they're not as "nice" as Jordan wrote them (For example I've been to Kenya multiple times and seen what happens to widows who were the second wife! I have Mormon friends - and it's all horror stories). Or if you read the Bible, there are lots of examples of polygamous marriages - that are all disasters. But anyways ... 

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I find the idea that only a marriage between 2 people to be the correct formula antiquated. The idea that every person on Earth fits neatly into a 2 person loving relationship feels wrong surely some people can be involved in multi party loving relationships/marriages and be happy.

 

The examples you raised are where a considerable power imbalance is present usually and the vast majority of these relationships that have occurred in our world fall into this category. Cult like harems are rarely done for the right reasons and thus should be avoided.

[Mailman]

  On 3/28/2025 at 8:21 PM, SinisterDeath said:

 

Trying to cast only red headed gingers, that average 6.5 feet tall to play Aiel, was going to be about as easy as trying to cast 2-2.5 Meter Tall, extremely skinny (Anorexic skinny) to play Belters in the Expanse.

 

 

 

One criticism the Fanbase of the Show has long ignored is the Colorism bias.

E.g. Casting wise, they chose to cast Ishy (Fares Fares), who is a Lebanese/Syrian actor as the Bad Guy. They chose to Cast black actors to play Padan Fain and Valda.

In season 3, they didn't have to have Leane (Asian Woman), brutally beat a Black Woman to death with her Staff in the Hall of the sitters...

 

Hell they even decided to keep the "Bald = Evil" trope alive and well in the Black Ajah. 

Even though the show is "inclusive" and is "progressive" by actually having actors and characters from all across the world, of various ethnicities and sexual identities and preferences, it still fails in other areas that various people from other communities pointed out all the way back in Season 1 as issues they hoped would be addressed in future seasons.... and may not have actually been addressed... and it's definitely a hard thing to address.

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Considering the lack of extras at this point in the show I'm fairly sure they could have actually found enough actors of any body shape and size.

 

If every one of those casting choices had been white there would have been complaints about only casting white people in those roles. Sammael, Moggy, Lanfear and Morgase are all white and clearly evil at this point of the show.

 

I am not sure having a solitary bald person in the BA out of 11 is exactly falling into the bald = evil trope. Although she is the only bald woman I can remember in the show so maybe? 

[Mailman]

  On 3/28/2025 at 8:59 PM, king of nowhere said:

You seem to forget that, by the book, being sisters is a strict requirement for a double marriage. The two girls must take each other as sisters before they can propose to the same men.

It's not incest, they are not blood related

 

Actually, tgey could be blood related, the aiel would not care

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But at no point in the books do I remember those wives actually having a sexual relationship with each other. The same as in the books Rand's wives do not have a sexual relationship with each other.

[Mailman]

  On 3/28/2025 at 8:36 PM, SinisterDeath said:

Careful, Rafe's going to make it so when they're out to Sea, all the Seafolk sail bottomless!

Dangly bits just flapping in the wind, as all the guys just stand around free balling it. They stand out on the Mast lookin' for land... 

Don't go lookin' up or you might see the Taint that winks back.

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ewwww the thought of all those dangly bits flapping around and potentially getting caught in ropes or on the rigging. That would be a bad place to get a rope burn.

[Elder_Haman]

  On 3/28/2025 at 11:37 PM, Mailman said:

But at no point in the books do I remember those wives actually having a sexual relationship with each other. The same as in the books Rand's wives do not have a sexual relationship with each other.

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So what? What possible difference does Aviendha’s sexuality make to the story?

[Mailman]

  On 3/28/2025 at 11:40 PM, Elder_Haman said:

So what? What possible difference does Aviendha’s sexuality make to the story?

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As I have stated before I do not care if they give Rands wives a more sexual component with each other to their relationship.

 

My issue is that in the books they are sisters and the ceremony they undertake clearly involves a rebirth as the twin sister of each other and it clearly seems that rafe is going to keep this ceremony which is called first sisters. If you are happy with the relationship involving an incestuous element then it is no issue.

 

If they remove the maternal birthing segment of the ceremony then it could work, however with this it is will it will not.

Edited Friday at 11:53 PM by Mailman

[Samt]

  On 3/28/2025 at 11:40 PM, Elder_Haman said:

So what? What possible difference does Aviendha’s sexuality make to the story?

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If it makes no difference, why would they change it in the show?  
 

You can’t intentionally change a bunch of things and then when anyone objects revert to saying it doesn’t matter.  It mattered enough that they changed it.  Matching it to the book is the default.  Changing it needs justification.  
 

And it’s frankly really weird that anyone reads a romantic relationship into the sisters.  Which part of them being sisters makes people think that they are also boinking?

[Elder_Haman]

  On 3/28/2025 at 11:53 PM, Samt said:

why would they change it in the show?  

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Rafe explained why. 

[Mirefox]

  On 3/28/2025 at 11:56 PM, Elder_Haman said:

Rafe explained why. 

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Rafe did not explain anything, he justified post hoc.

[Sabio]

  On 3/28/2025 at 11:15 PM, Mailman said:

I find the idea that only a marriage between 2 people to be the correct formula antiquated. The idea that every person on Earth fits neatly into a 2 person loving relationship feels wrong surely some people can be involved in multi party loving relationships/marriages and be happy.

 

The examples you raised are where a considerable power imbalance is present usually and the vast majority of these relationships that have occurred in our world fall into this category. Cult like harems are rarely done for the right reasons and thus should be avoided.

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Rand's 3 GF's are explained in the Origins of the Wheel of Time.  "The Three women of the story will be perceived not only as the three who took Arthur to Avalon, but also as the origin of the triple Goddess personified as Maiden, Nymph, and Hag. "  So it wasn't something RJ just tossed in but more of the myths and legends he was using to build the story,

Edited Saturday at 12:08 AM by Sabio

[Elder_Haman]

  On 3/29/2025 at 12:03 AM, Mirefox said:

Rafe did not explain anything, he justified post hoc.

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Tomayto/Tomahto 

[Elder_Haman]

  On 3/29/2025 at 12:07 AM, Sabio said:

Rand's 3 GF's are explained in the Origins of the Wheel of Time.  "The Three women of the story will be perceived not only as the three who took Arthur to Avalon, but also as the origin of the triple Goddess personified as Maiden, Nymph, and Hag. "  So it wasn't something RJ just tossed in but more of the myths and legends.

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No one is saying that he is. But look, if you are setting out to make a show with “more queer representation,” then the appropriate way to do that is to use characters for which there is some textual support for the change. 
 

Whether you agree with the interpretations or not, there is a textual hook for making Siuan and Moiraine a couple and for making Avi gay or bisexual. 
 

This is far better than just making Perrin gay, for example. I really think this show is a great example of inclusivity done right. 

[Scarloc99]

  On 3/27/2025 at 9:36 AM, zacz1987 said:

Did anyone else find a large portion of this episode so dark that they couldn't really see what was happening on screen? 

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they seem to have used the same set and lighting for the attack on the white cloaks as they did at Winterfell.