Wheel of Time Season 3 - Full Season Discussion

[Jaysen Gore]

So based on what has been said above and shown so far, here's my villain take...all speculation

The men are fairly straight forward

I think Sammael is in Tear, taking Be'lal's place, and will be destroyed at the end of next season when Rand takes the Stone

I think Asmodean shows up in the next couple of episodes and lasts a couple of seasons when an unknown assailant kills him in Tear (maybe after he takes Moraine's place in the little girl scene) sometime in season 5

I think Season 5 ends with Dumai's Wells, with the Black Tower but without Forsaken involvement

I think Rahvin meets his end in season 6 in Camelyn - this and the Wells could be swapped in timing

I think Taim is replacing Demandred, and the Black Tower is replacing the Sharans in the Last Battle. They were a WTF did they come from moment in the books and would be the worst kind of cheat in the series

 

On the Women, I'm less sure, but one of them is with the Tower, and one is with the Seanchan

I am not 100% sure of the timing because i don't know if the vision with Latra giving the Sarkanen to Rand was pre / post sealing, but there's a possibility the black lady with her was Semhirage. 

I expect Moggy's plotlines will remain mostly unchanged

For Lanfear, see below; either she's almost the same, or ....

 

Looking at what I put forward when I broke this down when the series was announced, I'm down to about 4 important plotlines I'm not sure if we're going to get:

- Morgase, Tallanvor, Lini and the escape from Rhavin

- Siuan, Leane, Logain and their trip to Salidar

- The tower of Genji and what drives it

- Galad and the Whitecloaks

 

There are easy opportunities to cut off (if you'll pardon the pun) those plotlines over the next season or so.

 

I think we're losing Illian, Berelain, the Red Veils, Shara, and Far Madding completely, and the other important ones (Salidar politics, the Menagerie, the kidnapping) will get pared down to a reasonable length

[DigificWriter]

Lews sealed away the Forsaken before The Dark One corrupted Saidin, and Latra gave the Sakarnen to Rhodric during the Breaking of the World.

[Samt]

If Sammael is replacing Bel’al and just straight up only really doing Bel’al things, what was the point of naming him Sammael? Someone just thinks the name sounds cooler?
 

Bel’al was probably the most vanilla of the forsaken, but if you want to include his plot points you should just include him.

[Elder_Haman]

  On 3/22/2025 at 4:03 PM, Samt said:

Someone just thinks the name sounds cooler?

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Probably. They wouldn’t be wrong. 

[Samt]

  On 3/22/2025 at 5:18 PM, Elder_Haman said:

Probably. They wouldn’t be wrong. 

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Sammael probably also has more consistent pronunciation among book readers.  I bet we don’t all say Be’lal the same, especially considering it’s never really been clear what was intended by the apostrophes.  

[Sabio]

If they want to get to season six I think they will need to speed up the pace of the new seasons.  It seems around a year and a half between seasons, so at that pace it's 4 1/2  years till season six hits.  

 

I am a bit concerned with Amazon delaying announcing if season 4 is being picked up.  Sort of seems like if season 3 doesn't deliver the numbers they want then 4 might not happen.

Edited March 22 by Sabio

[DigificWriter]

@Sabio I said this earlier, but according to Jon from WoT Up, it isn't Amazon that's holding up an S4 renewal, it's Sony Pictures Television.

[A Memory Of Why]

Earlier i read someone suggesting Taim could be Demondred reborn, which could be an interesting direction.

[Scarloc99]

I really hope Taim is not an existing dreadlord, mainly because I do like the idea of his arc being to become a new dreadlord it shows how petty jealousy can be turned on it's head to make someone as powerful as Taim turn to the Darklord and make a pact to become one of the Forsaken. 

[Scarloc99]

  On 3/21/2025 at 1:14 AM, Sabio said:

A few questions.

 

What happened to Thom and I know I've tried to purge the last episode of Season 2 from my memory but what happened to Mat's dagger?  Finally does anyone else find it odd Mat was allowed to keep the horn and so casually walk about with it.  Moiriane allowed that?   It took someone that long to tell Mat to stop it?

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Thom in the books is periphery really until book 3/4 so I can see him being pulled back into the Tanchico arc. Meeting Elayne and trying to protect her alongside Matt. I do wonder if Matt will be transported from the red door to somewhere else in the world when that happens? 

Mat's dagger I am assuming is in Aes Sedai hands (they are not going to let him keep that), the fact that we saw him hanging in front of red doors suggests he may still get his spear, amulet, and then memories all put back possibly they merge the 2 doorways into 1. 

Finally, Matt with the Horn was comic relief, and fits in perfectly with his character. He is taking advantage of it while he has it, until the reality sets in and he hands it over. I had no issues with this. 
 

[Scarloc99]

  On 3/21/2025 at 7:22 AM, Figs and Mice said:

Bit of a low bar to clear 🙂   But yes , I do reckon it is picking up a lot - despite , as DreadLord31 said above , having plenty of details we book purists can nit pick if we wish.  So the only things I would really nit pick about the first three episodes are : the Morgase out-of-character brutality on her ascension to the throne (I presume that was intended to be actual history and not Gaebril messing with our memories !)  ; and the rather unnecessarily violent arrival of the Blacks into Tanchico : both strike me as "shock spectacles" which make little sense and add nothing to the plot...

 

For all they are shuffling the order of events about , they do seem to be moving closer to the main book themes. The dark characters are all good (getting more prominence than they did on the page , which is fine). It has meant Liandrin and Lanfear have arguably taken a lot of the focus off our heroes so far but again that is OK as long as they handle all the main arcs properly over succeeding episodes. And liking Faile's arrival (Mandarb joke and all )

 

But I am still missing Thom  !

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We never saw the Blacks arrive, only the aftermath, which was pretty horrific (if you read between the Robert Jordan sanitised version). But, I am liking the fact that we are seeing a reason for why people turn to the dark lord which is more then just simply "they are evil". One of my issues in the books is that there is very little nuance in the bad guys. The forsaken where generally all either already cruel, or jealous very one dimensional in many ways. We are at least seeing Liandrin have more depth, a reason to be who she is while not taking away how she is still evil and cruel. 

The others seemed to revel in killing, being able to finally be who they are. I really did like this scene, especially given we know there excess and sense of superiority will soon be seriously curtailed by one even worse then them. 

[Turin Turambar]

It came up in the e4 thread about soul gendering. Part of it asked about "what if it was Saidar that got tainted?" Do you think that if men were the only ones able to channel they would be more likely to assume control of nations like we see the Forsaken do once they are freed? 

[Jaysen Gore]

  On 3/23/2025 at 2:11 PM, Turin Turambar said:

It came up in the e4 thread about soul gendering. Part of it asked about "what if it was Saidar that got tainted?" Do you think that if men were the only ones able to channel they would be more likely to assume control of nations like we see the Forsaken do once they are freed? 

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I suspect that male channelers would be more likely to take over nations / build nations, mainly because they would not allow someone like Artur Hawkwing (assuming he couldn't channel) to stand up to them, and men were in general more powerful than women channelers. There would have been no 3 Oaths, at which point, it would become a much more authoritarian state, enforced by the volume and strength of channelers; Saidin would replace the sword in feudal society, and the King's champion would be the most powerful user of the Power in the world.  And given their power, it would be mutually assured destruction, permanent cold wars, and somewhat constraining to society evolution.

 

I think women who could channel would likely be stilled, but kept as breeding stock for more male channelers, as the need for replenishment of channelers to support the ruler and their armies would preclude destroying them.

 

Hmmm. I don't think I have a good view of human nature.   good knowledge of human history, but maybe not an optimistic view as a result.

[Spiritweaver1]

Well I have been lost in the ways since the end of last season.  I thought I would drop in and see what people think and share my thoughts.  I have finished E4.  After last season I listened to the books on audio for the first time.  That was a great experience and was free since I have a library app.  Having read the books numerous times I could listen to the narrator tell the tale and not have to focus on it.  The slog was much more enjoyable.  Watching the first 4 episodes of season 3 was very helpful.

 

I no longer think of the Amazon  story as an adaption.  It is a derivative story that leans more or less heavily on the source material.  This mostly frees me from the compulsion to compare the Amazon story with the book story and evaluate the Amazon story on its own merits.   That said I will say that the writing team for the show is not up to the caliber of RJ.  The story is best when they remember that Wot is basically a young adults hero's journey story and not a we all live in GoT dark slime story.   I was puzzled by the number of Rand's ancestors lives they elected to show in E4.  That is a spot they could have trimmed to add other material like having Matt's quarterstaff exercise be in front the guard trainee's and novices instead of a private affair.  There are numerous other nits to pick with the decisions so far but why bother.

 

I will just enjoy the show for what it is and not worry about what it could have been.  The good news is that when AI starts creating these shows one could program it to reboot the series and have the show that could have been.  More fidelity to the source material with careful pruning of the story, where instead of making up unnecessary storylines, unnecessary storylines are cut.   I am not sold that the timeline shuffling is going to make the series better.  There is a character arc they are supposed to go through and going to Tear before Rhuidean is a key part of that arc.  I will also be interested to see what happens to Moraine.  She is the "star" and I was unable to pick out from her Rhuidean visions what will replace her book plot scenario and keep her in the show.  I may have to rewatch to try and pick it out.  

 

In summary this show is a whole lot better than no show and I prefer it to the Rings of Power or GoT.   If the writers can keep themselves from wandering too far from the source material they will have an excellent show by the end given the season by season improvement arc so far.

 

 

 

[Mirefox]

Is there a reason Loial was blonde for two seasons and suddenly has dark hair in season 3?

[Turin Turambar]

  On 3/28/2025 at 1:16 PM, Mirefox said:

Is there a reason Loial was blonde for two seasons and suddenly has dark hair in season 3?

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His roots grew out.  

[Mirefox]

  On 3/28/2025 at 1:27 PM, Turin Turambar said:

His roots grew out.  

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Ha, it works.  I mean, that means Loial is a dyer, but oh well.

 

Speaking of growing out, I want the writers to change all the book references to Perrin’s beard to references to his hair.  It needs to get bigger every season!

[Turin Turambar]

  On 3/28/2025 at 1:33 PM, Mirefox said:

Ha, it works.  I mean, that means Loial is a dyer, but oh well.

 

Speaking of growing out, I want the writers to change all the book references to Perrin’s beard to references to his hair.  It needs to get bigger every season!

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I could go with that. He could be like Sampson.  Or even go for Endgame Thor look. He will have the hammer for it.

  Reveal hidden contents

Loial just sings his hair different colours. 

 

[Mirefox]

  On 3/28/2025 at 1:46 PM, Turin Turambar said:

I could go with that. He could be like Sampson.  Or even go for Endgame Thor look. He will have the hammer for it.

  Reveal hidden contents

Loial just sings his hair different colours. 

 

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*Gasp*
 

Loial is Tonks!  WoT confirmed to be Harry Potter sequel!

[Windigo]

  On 3/27/2025 at 6:03 PM, Spiritweaver1 said:

 

I was puzzled by the number of Rand's ancestors lives they elected to show in E4.  That is a spot they could have trimmed to add other material like having Matt's quarterstaff exercise be in front the guard trainee's and novices instead of a private affair.  

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I had a different take than this, I think getting the back story of the Aiel, the bore and even the AOL Aes Sedai was important. 

I understand that it misses the lesson to take the brothers down a notch in front of others, but I think the change in the Mat quarterstaff scene had more impact without an audience, especially since we see Galad and Gawyn showing off in front of an audience, this way contrasted Mat with the brothers in a real way. This was classic book Mat who never fought for glory, accolades or rank.

[Agitel]

My biggest concern from the last episode is Rand's and Lanfear's discussion on the Pattern and the Wheel. And this may seem odd. Rand is rejecting the notion that the Pattern dictates his fate as a naive superstition. Lanfear states they weave their own fates. Now this is Lanfear, a Forsaken. This messaging would be on point for her. But I don't know that I trust the writers to stick to the series' themes here and not just embrace what Lanfear is saying. So I hope I see a reversal on this point later. 

 

Whether or not you believe in fate or higher forces in real life, it is essential to the basics of the Wheel of Time. Many character arcs, Rand's especially, are a sort of struggle and/or reliance on ta'veren nature and fate. While most people are not woven so, Rand and the others struggle with the Wheel railroading them where they need to be, literally shaping reality around him. Whatever else they do character or plotwise, this is like a fundamental, core motif of The Wheel of Time. If they were to abandon it, then what are they even doing choosing to adapt the property?

 

This might seem the most minor thing to some, but again, this is one of the core motifs of the entire series and the character arcs, the interplay of human freedom and fate. It's the very name of the series. The wheel isn't just the cycle of ages, it's what spins out the pattern.  "The wheel weaves as the wheel wills."

 

If the writers actually endorse Lanfear's sentiment here, which seems naive of me to believe, but again I don't have full faith in these writers, then I feel like that would be the most significant rejection of the source material, above anything else. Even if you still adapt most of the character and plot beats without it, it feels like missing the point. 

[Irvyne]

A nitpicky lore inconsistency I noticed in the most recent episode...

Earlier in the season, Lanfear told Moiraine that Moghedien was the only one who could create gray men. In other words, gray men hadn't existed for thousands of years.

Then Siuan says, "Oh look, a gray man snuck into the White Tower."

How does she know what a gray man even is? She hasn't been in contact with Moiraine. By logic, no one in this time should even have any idea what these soulless men are called.

[Gudrean]

  5 hours ago, Irvyne said:

A nitpicky lore inconsistency I noticed in the most recent episode...

Earlier in the season, Lanfear told Moiraine that Moghedien was the only one who could create gray men. In other words, gray men hadn't existed for thousands of years.

Then Siuan says, "Oh look, a gray man snuck into the White Tower."

How does she know what a gray man even is? She hasn't been in contact with Moiraine. By logic, no one in this time should even have any idea what these soulless men are called.

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Good point I had not even considered

[SinisterDeath]

  5 hours ago, Gudrean said:

Good point I had not even considered

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  5 hours ago, Irvyne said:

A nitpicky lore inconsistency I noticed in the most recent episode...

Earlier in the season, Lanfear told Moiraine that Moghedien was the only one who could create gray men. In other words, gray men hadn't existed for thousands of years.

Then Siuan says, "Oh look, a gray man snuck into the White Tower."

How does she know what a gray man even is? She hasn't been in contact with Moiraine. By logic, no one in this time should even have any idea what these soulless men are called.

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How did Siuan know Rhuidean was in the Aiel Wastes? I didn't think anyone outside of the Aiel knew about that...

 

Maybe this is some clever foreshadowing going on in the show...

[Mailman]

  2 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

 

How did Siuan know Rhuidean was in the Aiel Wastes? I didn't think anyone outside of the Aiel knew about that...

 

Maybe this is some clever foreshadowing going on in the show...

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The only thing I can think of is after they gave the clipping to Carhein they were able to travel the waste and unlike the tinkers I am assuming they may have had some contact with the Aiel and even possibly have been warned away from approaching Rhuidean as it was a sacred site. 

 

In the books Rhurrac when he meets the trading caravan warned the trader that if he had continued on his path then he would have reached the city and it would have been a bad thing for them. I think I remember as well that the trader knew it was not allowed.

Edited 2 hours ago by Mailman