Brandon Sanderson S2 Finale Reaction Video

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

3 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

And it would be nice if if some of you would stop pretending like there is no agenda when the show runner has explicitly said there’s an agenda.  You can agree with it, move it, loathe it, embrace it, be blind to it, or whatever, but saying things like “alleged agenda” is either willful ignorance or gross sycophancy.

It is most certainly an alleged agenda, as "some of you", as in you, Mirefox, constantly paraphrase what certain people say to back up your blatant antifeminism. You take moments such as the Eye of the World, where in the books Rand, without even consciously knowing he could channel, defeats a Forsaken as strong as LTT and Ishamael, destroys a Trolloc army, has a conversation with the Creator, then defeats Ishamael, where Ishamael does nothing whatsoever to fight back, then saunters back to see how everyone else is doing. But when the show does not give Rand this glory moment, it is because men are not allowed to have power moments, and Rafe said he hates Rand and only wants the women to shine. So of course there is an agenda. Rafe said so, that all men had to be marginalized and belittled, and for the show to all be about the women.

 

None of the things that the showrunner has said in anyway relate to what you claim they have said, and in no way back up your "all the changes are bad because they are motivated by evil" argument.

[swollymammoth]

2 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

The show is focusing on prioritizing character development

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

[Elder_Haman]

2 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

what a cogent response. 

[Mirefox]

4 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

what a cogent response. 

Yet completely on point.  This show wouldn’t recognize character development if it stepped in it.  The writers for this show think that artificially putting a character in a scene they were in in the book is the same as character development.  The writers of this show fail so miserably at character motivation that they literally used the plot device of knocking a character out and instantly relocating them THREE times in an episode and a half.  They can’t be bothered with writing real motivations for characters.  Character motivation is one of the things BS has criticized as well, to keep it on topic.  The characters and their motivations in this show are so shallow compared to the books, and that’s comparing them to the early books that are admittedly more shallow than the later.

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, Mirefox said:

Yet completely on point.  This show wouldn’t recognize character development if it stepped in it.  The writers for this show think that artificially putting a character in a scene they were in in the book is the same as character development.  The writers of this show fail so miserably at character motivation that they literally used the plot device of knocking a character out and instantly relocating them THREE times in an episode and a half.  They can’t be bothered with writing real motivations for characters.  Character motivation is one of the things BS has criticized as well, to keep it on topic.  The characters and their motivations in this show are so shallow compared to the books, and that’s comparing them to the early books that are admittedly more shallow than the later.

I bow to your superior knowledge, oh master of the written word.

 

[Mirefox]

7 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

I bow to your superior knowledge, oh master of the written word.

 

Doctorate of the written word, actually.

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, Mirefox said:

Doctorate of the written word, actually.

I'll be looking forward to reading your scripts.

[Mirefox]

2 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

I'll be looking forward to reading your scripts.

I, unfortunately, wasn’t a Survivor contestant.

[Mirefox]

25 minutes ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

It is most certainly an alleged agenda, as "some of you", as in you, Mirefox, constantly paraphrase what certain people say to back up your blatant antifeminism. You take moments such as the Eye of the World, where in the books Rand, without even consciously knowing he could channel, defeats a Forsaken as strong as LTT and Ishamael, destroys a Trolloc army, has a conversation with the Creator, then defeats Ishamael, where Ishamael does nothing whatsoever to fight back, then saunters back to see how everyone else is doing. But when the show does not give Rand this glory moment, it is because men are not allowed to have power moments, and Rafe said he hates Rand and only wants the women to shine. So of course there is an agenda. Rafe said so, that all men had to be marginalized and belittled, and for the show to all be about the women.

 

None of the things that the showrunner has said in anyway relate to what you claim they have said, and in no way back up your "all the changes are bad because they are motivated by evil" argument.

A) This is multiple times now you’ve called me an anti-feminist, which is not bad hominem and a demonstration that you don’t understand the differences between traditional feminism and modern liberal feminism.

 

B) Rafe has literally said that he wants to update Jordan’s idea of feminism for the modern world.  That is literally an agenda.  It also suggests that Rage, at least, acknowledges a difference between feminist philosophy of 20 years ago and today and he reject the philosophy of the book as unfit for modern ideals.  De facto agenda.

[Ralph]

22 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

I 100% promise you there were doing everything they could not to have a gendered power in season 1.  It was so painfully obvious and that Moiraine talk with Rand is laughable in the mental acrobatics they were attempting.

 

I do think it is possible they did everything they could not to have to explain this. yes. not not to have it. and that may have been to avoid offending the people who were offended by the books. but it doesn't brainwash or present any agenda, because it doesn't explain it any other way either.

 

it is only people who know how it was in the books who would even notice anything about it.

 

similarly I believe there is no chance they will have Aran'gar. but that is not an agenda - it is avoiding the things that may offend and upset some people. 

 

even if you disagree and consider the existence of trans people, or gender fluid people, or any other non cis identity, to be a political question (which somehow in the States it is, when if anything it should be a scientific question), avoiding expressing an opinion one way or the other is not "an agenda". 

 

and nobody has yet answered whether all of the anti-Rafe crew (not anti-show, that is a different thing) were similarly frothing at the mouth when suddenly BS introduced a male gay character, which RJ had never thought of having. or Lesbianism as something other than a girls' college bit of fun or Galina. were those changes presenting an agenda and spitting on RJ, who did not feature any such thing? 

 

 

[Elder_Haman]

3 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

I, unfortunately, wasn’t a Survivor contestant.

You're clearly more qualified than Rafe, what with your doctorate and all. 

[Gothic Flame]

28 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

what a cogent response. 

Was what he responded to deserving of more? 

I myself got a chuckle out of the "prioritizing character development" myself.

[king of nowhere]

1 hour ago, TheMountain said:

 taken as a whole his comments seem to paint a picture of a person who thinks he can go head-to-head with two great fantasy authors, and that when it comes to what works for film at least, he knows better.

and you know, he could be absolutely right. because he's a screenwriter, his job is writing stuff for television, which is not the same thing as writing a book.

writing books and writing scripts are related, though different skills. so while I expect that sanderson can make a passable job at writing a script, and rafe could manage at least somewhat at writing a book, I would be very surprised if rafe didn't knew more about screenwriting than brandon.

on the other hand, rafe apparently is not good at plot consistency and worldbuilding. most television is not.

 

which is why I presume that rafe can ultimately write a script better than sanderson (or better than RJ could have), but sanderson can give him tips on worldbuilding and magic. and if the two could work together and leverage their respective strengths, they would produce a better script overall.

[Elder_Haman]

31 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

The writers of this show fail so miserably at character motivation that they literally used the plot device of knocking a character out and instantly relocating them THREE times in an episode and a half.

This has nothing to do with character development. The mechanics of how one gets from one place to another does not develop character. Experiences develop character.

 

So, for example, watching your good friend and fellow warder succumb to depression and commit suicide makes you fearful when another good friend suddenly finds herself bereft and hopeless. 

 

Having the essence of what makes you forcibly taken from you causes you to become depressed and lash out at the people around you. You must find some reason to continue to put one foot in front of the other. 

 

Being caged, belittled, and tortured causes a person to want revenge on their captors.

 

And, of course, development is different from motivation. One is motivated by what one experiences. Right now, our characters are motivated by trying to keep their heads above water. They are at sea in a world that is far more complicated than what they ever knew. We are just now understanding what their motivations will be. 

Edited October 16, 2023 by Elder_Haman

[Yamezt]

Rafe isn't the sole writer. It is colaborative, and the reddit post that someone linked earlier, BS (mistborn) said as much.

 

Copied and pasted 2 responses from BS (the comment before BS responded in grey, and BS's comment in blue) 

 

1st set

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OstiaAntica
4 days ago
I'm curious... when you give suggestions, that they ultimately end up not following, do they give you any reasoning why?

 

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mistborn

·4 days ago

I'll sometimes do follow up calls or emails with Rafe, and he'll explain some of it. A lot of that I don't feel comfortable sharing, because it's been a while, and I don't want to put words in other people's mouths.

Sometimes, though, it's a studio mandate. Sometimes, an actor really wants the scene to be a certain way. Sometimes, Rafe just disagrees with me. Sometimes, he agrees, but a large number of the rest of the team disagree--and it being a collaboration, he bows to their instincts. Sometimes, I can't have what I want because of the realities of television. (I.E. Mat's actor being swapped, or another actor being needed for some other project during a certain sequence's filming.)

Sometimes, there's no response, as the team is busy and I'm just one of many giving them feedback.

 

2nd set

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bjj_starter

·4 days ago

You mention your name being associated with the show, and I think it makes sense to be concerned about that. Someone whose name is far, far more associated with the show is Rafe Judkins, both because of being the showrunner and beloved by fans and because of a lot of angry people calling for him to be subject to various nastiness (fired, shamed, etc). That's part of the lot of a showrunner. But a lot of the time when you're criticising things in the show, it looks like you are criticising Rafe and the job he is doing specifically. A lot of people watching you say "I tried, I really tried" with a dismayed look on your face are interpreting that to mean "I tried to convince Rafe not to do this, but I wasn't able to in this instance." When you said later that you pushed really hard for the Heroes of the Horn to be in the show, it gets received as "I tried to convince Rafe to have Heroes of the Horn in the show, and he relented so I was able to get the Heroes in". You followed that up by saying you weren't the only one pushing for the Heroes, but that doesn't really clear things up because the other people are unnamed. We've also seen Rafe in similar public appearances and interviews talk about how hard he's fought to get and keep the Heroes of the Horn in the show, for this specific example. There's a contradiction here between the way your words are being received by a lot of people and other information we've received. For example, that Rafe wants to have your advice for the show, in general; it's unclear why this would be the case when it doesn't need to be at all if the relationship was as acrimonious as people are reading into your words!

I think a big part of this is that when people get hot under the collar, they want an antagonist. If you're their hero, then Rafe becomes their villain by virtue of being more proximate to the corporate entity allocating resources. I think you could help to not give ammunition to some of the more extreme sections of the fanbase by specifying, by name, that Rafe is not the antagonist of XYZ struggle you're discussing. In general, what we all seem to want is more resources from Amazon, 10 or 12 episodes, more seasons committed in advance, etc, so that we have a high-quality show we can enjoy as "The Wheel of Time (2021)". We also want the show to go mainstream and attract a wide audience, so that more people find this great book series and we can talk to more people about this series we're so passionate about, and so that the show continues to get made (because shows don't get renewed without an audience). So everyone who wants that is fundamentally on the same side, right? We might have disagreements about what will be the most effective way to get there, what other factors are important, all sorts of stuff, but everyone worth listening to in this conversation wants the show to succeed. The only "antagonist" to that goal is a lack of funding, not enough episodes, more seasons approved in advance, etc. I think it would help to name what you're struggling against when talking about your struggles with the show, because if you don't name them people are going to drop Rafe into that position whether you intended it that way or not, because he is the face of the show, and the architect (not God) of how to spend its limited resources.

Sorry for the long comment, I've just grown up with this series since I was a young girl and needed to get it out because I care about the books a lot. Also I thought you might like to know that a lot of non-readers getting into the show really love Moiraine's family drama and Alanna's warder family, they've been listed as high points by a lot of people I talk to.

 

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mistborn

·4 days ago

You make a good point that I should reinforce. Rafe is absolutely a hero in getting Wheel of Time made, and made as well as it has been.

In regards to the Heroes, I wish I could be more specific, but my involvement in the show begins and ends with me talking directly to Rafe. I don't talk to the other producers or writers, and I don't know that they WANT to talk to me. Indeed, I get the sense that most of them would rather I vanished, where Rafe is the one working hard to get feedback from me and is trying very hard to balance his vision, the visions of a lot of other people involved, and Robert Jordan's vision.

I don't understand all of the forces working against him. In regards to the Heroes, it's tough because many things could be going on.

1. He wanted them in the show, but was outvoted by other producers and executives. I gave him more ammunition, and he went back to get them in.

2. Rafe was on board for no Heroes, but then tried it out and solicited feedback. He listened to the feedback and reevaluated.

3. Rafe tried something else that he hoped would work better, perhaps trying an idea suggested by someone else on his team. They may have even written the scene. ("Written By" credits in a show like this are basically just doled out equally among the writer's room, and all of them generally work on all of the episodes, even if some work on a given one more than others.) After feedback, together they decided to try something else, and it worked better.

Keep in mind that this happens all the time in writing. I mentioned my beta readers--some of them could tell stories (and I've given them leave to do so) about strange things I tried in early drafts that did NOT work. Because you sometimes just need to swing and see if you connect or not.

I don't know, therefore, what the situation was and how much influence I had. I do know that Rafe mentioned he wanted to try to get the Heroes in, and my feedback helped, but I don't know the extent to which that help changed the text.

I do have to say, though, that it bothers me when I point out things that I'm quite expert about--and am unable to make any headway. It's not my show, so fair enough, but I love Perrin and his arc. I think it's really cool, and I think killing his wife undermined it--and then I feel I was proven right by how this event strangled his character growth through the first season. But even on that, I can't say that Rafe was a villain. For one thing, he said he went back to everyone else and made my suggestions for changes to them, and they decided not to go that direction. For another, he and his team need to be allowed to make the art they want to make--that's part of adaptation. I have the right to disagree with it, yes, but I respect greatly their artistic talent.

So, I guess I'm rambling a bit, but let me back you up on what you said. This is a team effort, and together that team has made certain decisions. Don't hate on Rafe; he's your best advocate, but he also is also just one collaborator in a large group of people.

Anyway, I think you're right; the biggest weakness of the show is that it needs more time. There are too many characters, a fault of the source material, for this much time to cover--and their best actor needs episodes like the family drama to shine, which is going to eat up run time. Either that, or in retrospect, they should have decided only to tell a few of the characters' stories and worked in those confines.

 

Edited October 17, 2023 by Yamezt

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

9 hours ago, Mirefox said:

A) This is multiple times now you’ve called me an anti-feminist, which is not bad hominem and a demonstration that you don’t understand the differences between traditional feminism and modern liberal feminism.

 

B) Rafe has literally said that he wants to update Jordan’s idea of feminism for the modern world.  That is literally an agenda.  It also suggests that Rage, at least, acknowledges a difference between feminist philosophy of 20 years ago and today and he reject the philosophy of the book as unfit for modern ideals.  De facto agenda.

I have called you an anitfeminist because you act like one. However, this is not an ad hominem attack, I am not arguing that your thoughts on the show are without merit because of this. What I am saying is that your personal attacks on the showrunner, and your ad hominem attacks on the show (that the changes are bad because of who the showrunner is and not on their own merits) shows your own political stance and has nothing to do with the show at all. Modern liberal feminism is no different than any other feminism. It has the same goals and ideals. And it has the same opponents. It is not completely correct, nor is completely wrong. All feminism is about making the genders equal. Any specific thought, idea or concept would need to be looked at on its own merits, labelling it "modern liberal feminism" would not make it correct or incorrect, yet this is what you are doing. You are blanket labelling everything "feminism" and therefore wrong and should be resisted. This is what antifeminists have done since the beginning of feminism, and your meaningless adjective of "modern liberal" does not change the argument. It is still a defence of the status quo: no changes can be made to anything.

 

That is not an agenda. Would updating the technology or weaponry used in the books be an agenda? Feminism is not some weird and out-there theory, feminism is about how we are all equal. There is not really a counter point to it. This is an agenda? Feminism is not one body of thought, nor is everything that is called feminism correct or right. Therefore even if a change is motivated by some ideal of feminism, this means nothing as the change would still have to be looked at with its own merits to say whether it is a good one or not.

[Gothic Flame]

I find it difficult to believe anyone can be an anti-feminist and a "bookcloak."

[Scarloc99]

On 10/16/2023 at 3:07 PM, Jaysen Gore said:

The point to this was to give one of the most prolific fantasy authors in history the ability to exercise some creativity while writing 1600 pages or more of someone else's project. It was the "let me have something" point so he wasn't just transcribing notes, but actually writing.

 

I wasn't thrilled with the way the gateways were abused in the Last Battle, but they did help solve the problem of the Light being grossly outmanned by the Dark

I mean, he had 1600 pages to be creative, he could have focused on finishing Fain off properly, or writing a better Verin send off, or just writing better books, Robert Jordan did not leave him a half finished book, he left him a load of notes and ideas that he had to put together into a story. 
 

Now personally I actually like Androl, I like the arc he gets and I enjoyed the use of gateways, I really hope we see the volcano scene. But, we don’t get any real depth to Ansrol, he is a typical BS character, the issue is he looked better then the actually RJ characters that Brandon tried to change. 
 

 

[king of nowhere]

Quote

Sometimes, though, it's a studio mandate. Sometimes, an actor really wants the scene to be a certain way.

actors have the decision power to change the plot?

i ask because i genuinely don't know how that works

[Elder_Haman]

2 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

actors have the decision power to change the plot?

Not necessarily to change the plot, but often to change the dialogue, or the way a scene is blocked or shot. 

[Jaysen Gore]

4 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

I mean, he had 1600 pages to be creative, he could have focused on finishing Fain off properly, or writing a better Verin send off, or just writing better books, Robert Jordan did not leave him a half finished book, he left him a load of notes and ideas that he had to put together into a story. 
 

Now personally I actually like Androl, I like the arc he gets and I enjoyed the use of gateways, I really hope we see the volcano scene. But, we don’t get any real depth to Ansrol, he is a typical BS character, the issue is he looked better then the actually RJ characters that Brandon tried to change. 
 

 

Creativity in terms of something new that hadn't had RJ's direct hand in; it's a big difference, as I understand it, to create from scratch, versus playing with someone else's toys.

[Elder_Haman]

4 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

Creativity in terms of something new that hadn't had RJ's direct hand in; it's a big difference, as I understand it, to create from scratch, versus playing with someone else's toys.

IIRC, in an interview he did long ago, BS explained that creating Androl was what allowed him to finish the books because it was something he could always come back to when lost.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

3 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

actors have the decision power to change the plot?

i ask because i genuinely don't know how that works

I guess it is like if an actor is saying, I cannot act this character if you change this. Like Tam's sword being super-important to Rand, or something I could not understand from S1, was how for Mat/Barney the Birgitte doll did not become his most precious belonging, something that would keep his sisters safe but also tie him to them until he could deliver it. That he dropped it on the ground immediately, I don't get, and I could see an actor saying, look I cannot act this character unless you explain how that works, or if he does not have this deep unconditional love for his sisters that overrides everything.

[Samt]

2 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

IIRC, in an interview he did long ago, BS explained that creating Androl was what allowed him to finish the books because it was something he could always come back to when lost.

I think BS was hesitant to put too much of his own ideas into something like Verin or Fain since they were clearly characters and plot arcs that RJ had already created.  BS wanted to finish them as he thought RJ would have finished them.  And when he didn't know he left it vague and arguably undeveloped.  

 

With Androl, he was creating something that was mostly his own.  And while he felt that it fit into the universe and didn't break the lore or plot, he also didn't feel that he had any sort of duty to do it the way that RJ intended.  

[Elder_Haman]

4 minutes ago, Samt said:

I think BS was hesitant to put too much of his own ideas into something like Verin or Fain since they were clearly characters and plot arcs that RJ had already created.  BS wanted to finish them as he thought RJ would have finished them.  And when he didn't know he left it vague and arguably undeveloped.  

 

With Androl, he was creating something that was mostly his own.  And while he felt that it fit into the universe and didn't break the lore or plot, he also didn't feel that he had any sort of duty to do it the way that RJ intended.  

Exactly. What I remember him saying (and could be misremembering) was that when he felt like he was getting stuck with other stuff, he could always return to Androl. It was sort of his security blanket.