WoT Season 2 Episode 8: What Was Meant to Be

[nsmallw]

1 hour ago, Elder_Haman said:

1 hour ago, nsmallw said:

By entering into discussion with such people, we only encourage them to continue. Ignoring them is the better option. 

You are free to ignore. But people are welcome to express their opinions here whether I agree with them or not. It's not meant to be an echo chamber. Those who can't or won't defend their arguments typically leave. 

I admire you, wise Ogier. 

Edited October 6, 2023 by nsmallw

[fearbrog]

6 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Putting the Collar on with no premeditated thoughts of harming her is 100% possible without being a "psycho".

You can't put collar without harmful  premeditation. Moment Egwene began damane training it was demonstrated to her a-dam is enslavement device nothing more, nothing less. She lived with idea that collar restricts her and suppresses her will. That's why she can't put on a-dam by herself, cause act of restriction or suppression is harmful in it self.

Only way she can justify putting collar on her master is by denying it's purpose, but for that she would need to deny herself agency and sell herself on the idea that suppression comes not from collar, but from herself. However if she denies herself agency, she doesn't need to put collar on her master. If i'm not wrong it's called catch-22.

[SinisterDeath]

5 minutes ago, fearbrog said:

You can't put collar without harmful  premeditation. Moment Egwene began damane training it was demonstrated to her a-dam is enslavement device nothing more, nothing less. She lived with idea that collar restricts her and suppresses her will. That's why she can't put on a-dam by herself, cause act of restriction or suppression is harmful in it self.

Yes she can. 
The show made no restriction to a Damane touching another A'dam collar. Only a restriction to touching their own.

Putting a collar on another isn't "physically" harming" or an "act of violence" on the "sul'dam" like Egwene imagining using the water jug to bash Renna's head in.

 

It's all about the mental premeditation game of intent.

Putting the collar on is no more an act of violence then putting a necklace on Renna.

5 minutes ago, fearbrog said:

Only way she can justify putting collar on her master is by denying it's purpose, but for that she would need to deny herself agency and sell herself on the idea that suppression comes not from collar, but from herself. However if she denies herself agency, she doesn't need to put collar on her master. If i'm not wrong it's called catch-22.

This is the same way lies and the 3 oaths work.
 
It's not a lie if someone believes something to be true.

[Akmenos the bound]

3 hours ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

It's time to roll the dice ("Dovie'andi se tovya sagain.").

Thank you oh moustashed one!   Do you think this was there way of accounting for the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn?  Last episode (7) they showed a hanging Mat after he drank Ishamael’s tea and in this one (8) he basically made an Ashiranda’i using the Dagger from Shadar Logoth.  Then all of a sudden he knew how to use it.

[Scarloc99]

15 hours ago, Mailman said:

So the dagger can cut through metal and does leave incredibly infected wounds yet it had no effect on Loial at all? What is it a Disney wars light saber FFS.

Rafe has addressed this, he stated in his twitter Q and A that a Covid mistake was made, and that sometimes you should just move on, I am happy with that. 
 

He has also stated that Barney quitting in season 1 meant they had to entirely re write season 2, he originally wanted to have the 3 boys together hunting the horn because he loves that, but once it was clear Matt would have to stay behind all of a sudden season 2 changes. 

[Mirefox]

Was Min’s vision consistent?

 

Based on this episode, we have to conclude that a) Min’s visions are metaphorical and not literal, since what she saw was not what happened, and b) Min misinterprets her visions.

 

I don’t care if either of these is true, but it is consistent with how her visions have worked so far this show?  I really can’t remember now.

[Guire]

57 minutes ago, Samt said:

Completely agree.  The show is better the less you think about it.  

Agaim I reiterate watching Lanfear, Egwene, and now Moghedian chew up scenes is amazing entertainment if you distract your brain slightly with cold beer and RJ approves levels of cleavage. Super high def TV also helps. Somehow this group of writers managed to make a show best viewed at a Hooters.

[Elder_Haman]

8 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

Was Min’s vision consistent?

 

Based on this episode, we have to conclude that a) Min’s visions are metaphorical and not literal, since what she saw was not what happened, and b) Min misinterprets her visions.

 

I don’t care if either of these is true, but it is consistent with how her visions have worked so far this show?  I really can’t remember now.

Hard to say because we don't really know the mechanics of how her visions work. But the way Mat stabbed Rand was not consistent with the vision as Mat was much closer to Rand in the vision Min saw.

[Scarloc99]

7 hours ago, DreadLord31 said:

So the things that encourage me the most about this season are: 

 

#1. the actors/actresses, for the most part, knock it out of the park when they’re given something decent to work with. 
 

#2. the bad guys are so much more believable, even likeable, that I’ve been won over to the dark. #teamLanfear 

 

#3. the CGI was slightly better than the Video Game quality bad Trollocs and channeling of the S1 Finale. 
 

What truly worries me is: 

 

#1. Other than the cold open of S1Ep7, they’ve consistently shown they don’t know how to direct/edit good action sequences IMO. The “biggest battle in Tv history” felt somewhat lame with all their quick cuts (even though the lighting didn’t suck for once). 
 

#2. it continues to feel so rushed. 
If I assign my students an 8 page paper & they turn in a 30 page paper, they get it back with a “You have an 8 page max.” If they then take that same paper & just try to cut out 22 pages worth … that’s going to be an F paper even if the 30 page paper was really good. Hard core WoT fans might be pissed… But if you’re given an 8 seasons, 8 episodes parameter — you can’t try to squeeze in everything; you have to write a new story. And they’re doing an “ok” job of that, but still trying to squeeze in too much and give all these winks at book readers. Like the Ingtar stuff. 
 

#3. WoT is most known and loved as a fantasy series for its world building and its intricate magic system. You can’t keep conveniently breaking even your own shows rules within the show WoT when it comes to the magic system. 
 

For example(s): the Egwene/Renna stuff made no sense. We argued for a whole week how, “If the collar only comes off if the Damane dies…how is Egwene going to get free & not be a “fake-out” death. Egwene becoming Renna’s Suldam at the same time she’s Renna’s Damane??? What? 
 

The damane shielding Rand from the ships made no sense. Within the rules of the show you have to be in sight of the person & actively channeling. 
 

Moiraine got tired/injured fighting like 20 Trollocs … now she can fire blast an entire fleet from miles away? 
 

The Shaddar Logoth dagger can melt through metal & instant kills now? Didn’t last season. 
 

The Horn of Valere box is easily opened by Turok & then just set aside and unguarded even though “With this, the whole world will be ours.” Really? But then Loial just has it & they can’t open it, without the dagger?
 

And where did Fain go? Is he corrupted by the dagger or not? In the show it corrupts whoever touches it, but Fain just sets it aside for Matt … just because we need Matt to “have it” but not “touch it”. 
 

 

Yeah the biggest battle in tv history, maybe he should have added the caveat “that you can see” as the battle of winter fell I guess was bigger (although the scene of the Dothraki dying is still epic and is better then the whitecloaks charge). 
 

Having said that battle of the bastards was bigger, and that you could see so. 
 

Rafe has apologized on X for the dagger end season 8 so I think we stop calling that out. He has stated it was a Covid error that he wants to just move on from. 
 

as a long term book lover, Robert Jordan kept changing his magic system as the books went from a trilogy to 5 to many, and the rules have not been broken, who has stated that you must be able to see the target to shield and still them? 
 

The collar I get the confusion, but the whole point of that scene was that it was hurting Egwene, she just was showing the strength to grit her teeth and accept the pain. That is going to stand her well in the 3 fold land. 
 

Fain doesn’t have the dagger at the end of book 2 either, and yes him putting the dagger down confuses us book fans but in the world of the show can be explained because his addiction to it has not been explained. 
 

 

[Requiem]

1 hour ago, DigificWriter said:

 

And that's not how it worked here.

 

Also, how did everything devolve into contradictory nonsense? The gist of the argument everyone was using to push back against my argument is that Sharon Gilham and freelance writer Amy Ratcliffe were wrong in stating that the collar portion of the a'dam could only be removed upon the death of the damane wearing it, which is exactly what this episode demonstrated.

 

 

The episode didn't show that at all, it certainly showed that if a damane died that would make the collar fall off, but the mere fact that Renna was capable of releasing Egwene showcases that the sul'dam can command the collar to come off.

[Rhaze]

3 hours ago, Samt said:

Agree with the general idea, but Egwene hasn't taken the oaths.  The way that the interlocked Damane system works is unclear, but the 3 oaths don't come into it.  

well they did spend an entire episode proving how a damane cannot do anything to the suldam that hey considered to be an attack or damaging... so the whole thing was completely BS, but I am sure they are saying "dont think dont think dont think dont think" over and over hoping their audience are as stupid as the writers are.  While there are some good things in the series, there are a lot more holes and bad things in the series. I will be shocked to my core if they approve a season 4.

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, Rhaze said:

well they did spend an entire episode proving how a damane cannot do anything to the suldam that hey considered to be an attack or damaging... so the whole thing was completely BS, but I am sure they are saying "dont think dont think dont think dont think" over and over hoping their audience are as stupid as the writers are.  While there are some good things in the series, there are a lot more holes and bad things in the series. I will be shocked to my core if they approve a season 4.

Don't forget that Egwene spent her captivity internalizing the idea that she could not harm Renna. That makes it easier psychologically: "I can't hurt her, therefore picking up this collar will not hurt her. I can't hurt her, therefore putting this collar on her neck will not hurt her. I can't hurt her, but I can watch her die."

[The_Watcher_And_Wanderer]

1 hour ago, Scarloc99 said:

Rafe has addressed this, he stated in his twitter Q and A that a Covid mistake was made, and that sometimes you should just move on, I am happy with that. 
 

He has also stated that Barney quitting in season 1 meant they had to entirely re write season 2, he originally wanted to have the 3 boys together hunting the horn because he loves that, but once it was clear Matt would have to stay behind all of a sudden season 2 changes. 

What in the hell is a “covid mistake” exactly? Is it using covid as an excuse for bad writing? Because that’s sure what it sounds like. 

[jh557]

Overall this fell flat for me much like the ending of season 1. I think this season was much better than season 1 but this episode dropped the ball. I get the time restraints per episode/there only being 8 episodes, but light this just felt so slow to have something happen for the first half and then beyond rushed.  

 

Bad: 

 

The 3 Oaths- Moiraine violates the third oath to destroy the Seachan ships for the cinematography and for the fire to join that stupid cheesy dragon?! What threat are they to her own life or that of her warder? A threat to Rand yes, but he is not her warder and there is not an except for the Dragon clause that I know of! Are we to believe that she actually believes that they are ALL every single one of them are darkfriends even after the discussion with Lan that there are 1000's of innocent lives she will sacrifice OR they (directly on the ships mind a mile away) are a distinct threat to her and Lan at that moment when they cannot even bloody see whether she is a man or a woman on the beach (In this turning its stated only certain damane/female channlers can sense the channeling ability and also seems like they need to be close and none of them even blond damane that we know points with such sadness in her face and eyes pointed out Moiraine as a target).

 

Something that makes great fantasy is a magic rule system and not just whatever we want whenever we need it. The second half of that is what bad books and shows do, and it is unfortunately beginning to be a trend here. At the end of season 1 we got healing the dead/"neardead" which is a nonstarter in almost every good magic system that I have ever read or seen. And don't give me the well Rafe came out and said it was a mistake. You can't have huge mistakes like that that are never explained to viewers when you want renewals for an 6+ season show (Much like Loial being stabbed by what is now a lightsaber knife and quiet literally not even mentioning being healed by some exhausted woman who just was part of a circle that vanquished the entire trollic hoard. Just alive and well and giving rousing speeches and bowing like a vassal to a princess that the Ogier hold no loyalty to). Here we get the 3 oaths don't apply to Moiraine so she can save the day and make a roaring dragon while the entire town cheers for the Dragon Reborn you know probably the most polarizing hate/fear/love figures in the entire age! But not in this city! Only cheers for the end of an age. Congrats Masema you have your army now!

 

Also the third oath is ignored again when Maigan is used in battle with the tower sequence. You can't make rules and then ignore them out of convivence! Just remove it from the show entirely and I would be fine with it. But they established the 3 oaths in the show and are now ignoring them. That is bad writing and worldbuilding.  

 

Uno- He quite literally did not do a single thing in scene for TV viewers to think he is a "hero". There was nothing amazing about him. Even season 1 he was injured/"died" during the now lightsaber knife attack and like Loial healy healed for this season. He defied the Seachan but wow was I not overawed when he did. There was literally nothing special about it. He was quite literally stupid not to fight another day. No insane level fight scene was ever held by him. Head on a spike of a mobile thrown for nothing. I thought it was a bad and quiet frankly it ruined any good about the horn scene which was problematic with its cheesiness and 12 heroes. He added nothing to the show or this episode as Perrin (the only person that actually knew him alive in the entire city other than Masema) only interacted with him for about 7 seconds to get a......... legendary shield?!

 

Ingtar- We get the lines with absolutely no build up. No darkfriend redemption. Like this was just spit in the face here you go book fans we did the part for you when it holds no value in the show because you didn't build anything about his character. Just the I'll hold them off here where one man can take on.... literally 5 men and then die in literally 12 seconds. Like the whole point of that is that he was trying to redeem himself and held off dozens to buy minutes and you know not dying in the viewing 20 yards down the street of the people he was buying time for. Just could have saved money and cut the character because he added not a single thing to the season.       

 

Suroth- I don't know if it is the actress or the writing but by the light I hope she does not come out of that water. I never want to see her on screen again. Literally an actual child in a grown body. Not scary or intimidating. No actual sustenance to the character. Not dark. No plotting. No leading. Just doing what daddy says and laughing idiotically. She if giving major Effie from the Hunger Games to me. Just a child playing make believe with her toys and having THE WORST lines is all I am getting from her character. 

 

The cold opens- The AoL scenes are doing nothing for me personally. The turn the Dragon bit is played out with Ishy and Lanfear's scenes. We don't actually need Ishy and Lews having a conversation to understand this. I would rather be getting scenes from New Spring that explain the things in this age but done much better than the Gitara disaster. Light I wish there were was a prequel movie or a 2 or 3 episode "season" of New Spring in which they could have established their lore and magic rules they are using with Moiraine and Siuan giving Rosemund Pike her screen time and just bloody explaining the one power in their training and introducing the plot of the dragon, the prophecies, their motivations, and the black ajah instead of taking up large parts of the 8 episodes we get while still not explaining things that satisfyingly.      

 

Bayle- What purpose did he have? To show that Lanfear doesn't play with the other Foresaken? Just add a few lines of her saying she hopes that they are never unsealed in her Ishy scenes. And a line or two of her personal hatred for someone like Mog or Grendel. Wasted precious minutes. 

 

The fight scenes- These were just pathetic and cheesy throughout. Not a single moment was give to the Aiel either. Throwing a spear and shooting an arrow does not count.  

 

Elayne- Just stands there and makes a face why Nyn goes dark on the Sul'dam. Not a line from the noble about how those with power should govern/treat people. Just disappointed/sad face. And then here is a crossbow bolt to the leg to show that the most powerful channeler in a thousand years is useless. And just some screaming to push the bolt through and then up and face composed to go fight! Pain and blood loss don't touch a pampered princess because in Andor Gareth stabs her every other day and she is then healed by Elaida and then put to the question! Tai'shar Andor! And wow she is an amazing healer now too just like Egwene. Ignore that this is a Talent and has an entire Ajah dedicated to this Talent. Every channeler we are to like can heal anything so its not really a Talent.     

 

Fain- I think this season was a set up that he will become Moridin/Shaidar Haran with the way Ishy's actor Bellatrixed to ashes and the I see nothing. Also by his conversation with Ishy which sure seemed like a wasted minute otherwise. Guards! Guards! Help he has an homemade lightsaber ashandarei!

 

Can assume from this we are not getting the doorframe scenes, snakes and foxes, or Tower of Ghenjei which will ultimately weaken both Matt and Moiraine as characters as well as Brigitte if she is even in the show as a warder. Also takes away from Rand getting his 3 answers which help lead him to peace/alliance with the Seachan.    

 

The shahdol logath dagger- I think I summed up my thoughts above.     

 

The Horn scene- Beyond cheesy. I remember! I finally belong! Just pathetic High School Musical writing there. Then just be sorry the rest of the episode Matt we wouldn't want you to feel good about yourself for more than 2 minutes.  

 

Valda- Went from I will kill you darkfriend! To mauled by Hopper. To ignore Perrin and just get up and follow Bornhald and leave Perrin there. Disappear. Like I get they needed to set up Hopper's death and the Perrin better known as "Two Rivers" arc but like he was there trying to kill Perrin and then just not there anymore because his arm got bit and he was ordered to follow. Very poor and irrational writing there.   

 

The exaggeration of the channeling for the Aes Sedai- The Moiraine scene she is out there doing a dozen yoga poses to make a couple balls of fire. Lanfear doesn't have to bat an eye and does something much more impressive. Like I get they are trying to hype up the power difference, but again there have to be established rules to a good magic system. Moiraine is a top 5 power Tower channeler and realistically not THAT far down on the ladder from Lanfear. I think the scene was supposed to be for dramatic effect but I just feel it is getting to repeatedly being too over the top. 

 

Rand- stand and face it on your feet.... or just kneel until stabby stab destroying Tam's sword and branding your palm and then stand for the last 3 minutes for the cheers of the plebs.  

 

 

Liked/Loved:

 

Egwene- She is one of my favorite characters in the entire series in the books. She is ever growing/learning and unbreakable. Willing to die in stubborn defiance. The show did a great job with this. Take her braid and she takes your life. RIP Renna. As dark as it was she made me want to please her and taught me I like hearing "good girl" when she is pleased even though I am a man and identify as such. (I know straight to horny jail). But Xelia Mendes-Jones did an brilliant job showing us the Sul'dam! They earned future screen time and should have been the damane that made Tuon realize she herself could channel IMO. It is great that Egwene released herself, but the way it was done with it being double damane was just eh to me. I get that there were restraints on how to do that, but it just was a bit cheesy feeling to me. Loved that she was able to hold her own vs Ishy. Scene was iffy but looking at it as she is just making a shield to block anything and everything and just having a contest of wills even after being injured made me like it.   

 

Moghedien- Loved her in the books. I know she got beat by Nyn but those were great arcs, and she was one of the few that came off as really truly dangerous like a venomous spider lurking at least for a time. And it seems like she is going to be dangerous in the show with that final scene with Lanfear! And she is unhinged AF it appears! 

 

Turak- Rand ain't got time for messing about with swords and your claws. Straight fire to the throat.

 

Whitecloak charge- It was the best fight sequence of the episode. And showed great battle/army technique with the smokescreen. Sets them up to be an actual military force in the future. But also takes away from the ever victorious army being a military force that did not find the huge approaching smokescreen a reason to investigate.        

Nyn- Didn't hate her taking a back seat and being along for the ride and having others shine. The show has not done enough actual physical talking about her block though. Like another Aes Sedai that had a block talking to her about how she overcame it adds a lot to understanding it. And we got the make you curse the first kiss you father ever gave you mother line! 

 

Lan- He can fight! Why is he kneeling like that at the end while Moiraine makes the dragon though? Just odd ending to that scene for him to me. 

 

 

Just sharing some thoughts. I don't consider myself a show hater, but I certainly did not like this episode. I am enjoying parts and will continue to watch for as long as it is running (Hopefully- I don't want it to become so bad that I begin to hate it). It is fun to be able to theorize about where things might go just like we did back in the day waiting for the next book. But I do not think it is the greatest thing ever made or that it is above criticism and just wanted to share to see if others agreed or perhaps to share a rationale that has escaped me. 

Edited October 6, 2023 by jh557

[The_Watcher_And_Wanderer]

1 hour ago, Mirefox said:

Was Min’s vision consistent?

 

Based on this episode, we have to conclude that a) Min’s visions are metaphorical and not literal, since what she saw was not what happened, and b) Min misinterprets her visions.

 

I don’t care if either of these is true, but it is consistent with how her visions have worked so far this show?  I really can’t remember now.

Min’s visions in the book were metaphorical and she often did not know what they meant. When she did know she was always right but still it was always very vague. Eg she knew Aliva would help Rand die but did not know how, when or any other details. In the books her visions were usually a symbol like a crown or a heart and were rarely a scene playing out. So her vision of Mat stabbing  Rand fits. The vision told her it would happen but not how or why. 
 

In the books Min would likely have looked at Rand and seen a knife and a pair of dice and knew it meant Mat would stab him. 

Edited October 6, 2023 by The_Watcher_And_Wanderer

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

19 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Don't forget that Egwene spent her captivity internalizing the idea that she could not harm Renna. That makes it easier psychologically: "I can't hurt her, therefore picking up this collar will not hurt her. I can't hurt her, therefore putting this collar on her neck will not hurt her. I can't hurt her, but I can watch her die."

With all due respect that does not make sense. 

 

Why did she do it but to hurt Renna? To kill her like she said she would?

 

That whole internalising meant she could not harm Renna, not that she could pretend she was not. This is not a debatable, that is what it means. She did not have to pretend to herself that she would not hit Renna with the pitcher, she had to believe. That was the whole point, how is possible to ignore this? She could not think, I'll hit her with the pitcher another day, she had convince herself that she could never hit Renna at all.

 

She could only have put the collar on her if she genuinely thought it would not harm her, which she obviously did not think. 

 

Could she even let a sul'dam die by inaction? Cannot remember from the books. What happened made no internal sense, She was still very lucky to be given those circumstances, so why not just give her some help and avoid all of this? They still need someway of freeing damane but that now means they need a female channeler to take the bracelet and release them. Asha'men and Rand cannot touch them, which seems limiting.

 

As I said before, if they let Egwene free herself they don't amplify Egwene, they diminish the horror of the a'dam and that is what they did. Not hugely, as the circumstances for Egwene getting free would be pretty rare, but diminish it none-the-less.

[Mirefox]

6 hours ago, The_Watcher_And_Wanderer said:

What in the hell is a “covid mistake” exactly? Is it using covid as an excuse for bad writing? Because that’s sure what it sounds like. 

100%.  The excuse is nonsense and I cannot comprehend people buying it.  The show didn’t write and film itself during lockdown; decisions were made and one of those decisions was writing, filming, and editing a scene where characters get stabbed by the ruby dagger.  That’s not a mistake and it has nothing to do with covid.  This whole time the writers have played fast and loose with lore and twist it to suit their needs when the plot demands it.  The ruby dagger is one of dozens of example.  

 

Is anyone tech proficient.  I really want a gif from Monty Python and the Holy Grail where the guards are watching Lancelot run at them from a mile away and then he’s instantly on top of them and stabbing one.  And then I want “Rand” over Lancelot and “Ishamael” over the guard.

 

6 hours ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

With all due respect that does not make sense. 

 

Why did she do it but to hurt Renna? To kill her like she said she would?

 

That whole internalising meant she could not harm Renna, not that she could pretend she was not. This is not a debatable, that is what it means. She did not have to pretend to herself that she would not hit Renna with the pitcher, she had to believe. That was the whole point, how is possible to ignore this? She could not think, I'll hit her with the pitcher another day, she had convince herself that she could never hit Renna at all.

 

She could only have put the collar on her if she genuinely thought it would not harm her, which she obviously did not think. 

 

Could she even let a sul'dam die by inaction? Cannot remember from the books. What happened made no internal sense, She was still very lucky to be given those circumstances, so why not just give her some help and avoid all of this? They still need someway of freeing damane but that now means they need a female channeler to take the bracelet and release them. Asha'men and Rand cannot touch them, which seems limiting.

 

As I said before, if they let Egwene free herself they don't amplify Egwene, they diminish the horror of the a'dam and that is what they did. Not hugely, as the circumstances for Egwene getting free would be pretty rare, but diminish it none-the-less.

As I was watching it, I kept thinking “they aren’t going to have her free herself, are they?  They can’t, because it will make the a’dam so much less horrifying.”

 

For a second, when she was staring Renna down, I actually thought she was going to channel it right off herself.

 

I agree with you, they completely broke the lore of the a’dam and made it much less terrifying.

 

6 hours ago, The_Watcher_And_Wanderer said:

Min’s visions in the book were metaphorical and she often did not know what they meant. When she did know she was always right but still it was always very vague. Eg she knew Aliva would help Rand die but did not know how, when or any other details. In the books her visions were usually a symbol like a crown or a heart and were rarely a scene playing out. So her vision of Mat stabbing  Rand fits. The vision told her it would happen but not how or why. 

Yeah, I get that that’s how they are in the books but they clearly aren’t that in the show.  I’m trying to figure out how her visions work since she kind of botched this one.

[Elder_Haman]

10 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

100%.  The excuse is nonsense and I cannot comprehend people buying it.  The show didn’t write and film itself during lockdown; decisions were made and one of those decisions was writing, filming, and editing a scene where characters get stabbed by the ruby dagger.  That’s not a mistake and it has nothing to do with covid.  This whole time the writers have played fast and loose with lore and twist it to suit their needs when the plot demands it.  The ruby dagger is one of dozens of example.  

It has to do with Barney Harris quitting the show. They had to re-write the last episodes entirely and restructure all of Season 2. COVID restrictions came into play in terms of what they were and were not able to depict due to "social distancing" requirements in place at the time. 

 

 

[The_Watcher_And_Wanderer]

23 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

Yeah, I get that that’s how they are in the books but they clearly aren’t that in the show.  I’m trying to figure out how her visions work since she kind of botched this one.

Not really, she saw a vision that told her Mat would stab Rand but she didn’t know how or why. Just as in the books her visions aren’t just future events playing out and her knowledge of what they mean is vague and lacking in detail. 

Edited October 6, 2023 by The_Watcher_And_Wanderer

[Elder_Haman]

22 minutes ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

Why did she do it but to hurt Renna?

To escape from her own collar. There's no prohibition on wanting to escape. 

[Sabio]

17 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

Yeah, I get that that’s how they are in the books but they clearly aren’t that in the show.  I’m trying to figure out how her visions work since she kind of botched this one.

Whenever you notice something is wrong, just go to the shows default COVID mistake excuse.

[The_Watcher_And_Wanderer]

18 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

It has to do with Barney Harris quitting the show. They had to re-write the last episodes entirely and restructure all of Season 2. COVID restrictions came into play in terms of what they were and were not able to depict due to "social distancing" requirements in place at the time. 

 

 

I still don’t see how this forced them to film a scene where Loial and the Shinarins are stabbed by the Ruby dagger. And given that Raphe apparently knew the mistake had occurred then he should have stuck with it and just made it not an instant kill weapon in season 2. Come to think of it why didn’t the dagger kill Rand? In the books wasn’t it the presence of Shadow born evil in the wound that kept it at bay? Here’s a wild idea, why not just have Ishy strike the initial non-healing wound? 

Edited October 6, 2023 by The_Watcher_And_Wanderer

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

6 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

To escape from her own collar. There's no prohibition on wanting to escape. 

Why then could she not pick up her own bracelet, or move from it if it was hung on the wall? I think there was very much a prohibition on trying to escape.

 

And she could only use it to escape by forcing Renna to let her go by force of violence. Which was prohibited.

 

Your argument is completely wrong, both in premises and conclusion.

[Elder_Haman]

5 hours ago, The_Watcher_And_Wanderer said:

I still don’t see how this forced them to film a scene where Loyal and the Shinarins are stabbed by the Ruby dagger. And given that Raphe apparently knew the mistake had occurred then he should have stuck with it and just make it not an instant kill weapon in season 2. Come to think of it why didn’t the dagger kill Rand? In the books wasn’t it the presence of Shadow born evil in the wound that kept it at bay? Here’s a wild idea, why not just have Ishy strike the initial non-healing wound? 

It didn't force anyone to do anything. What it did do was place the writers in the untenable position of having to rewrite three episodes of a TV show and remove one a main character who was a key element of those episodes. Since the bulk of the series was in the can and they were headed toward the release date, the writers cobbled some stuff together.

 

The final product was bad. We ended up with terrible plot holes. But that is the reason for those holes.

 

5 hours ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

Why then could she not pick up her own bracelet, or move from it if it was hung on the wall? I think there was very much a prohibition on trying to escape.

Because the bracelet was connected to the a'dam around her neck. The bracelet and collar are a canonical pair.

 

5 hours ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

And she could only use it to escape by forcing Renna to let her go by force of violence.

Something she chose not to think about until the collar was in place.

[Sabio]

21 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

It has to do with Barney Harris quitting the show. They had to re-write the last episodes entirely and restructure all of Season 2. COVID restrictions came into play in terms of what they were and were not able to depict due to "social distancing" requirements in place at the time. 

 

 

COVID is why they had to change the Tarwins Gap fight, the actor leaving changes what they were going to have Mat do in Episode 1.  It should have zero to do with making the dagger do totally opposite things when it hits someone.