WoT Season 2 Episode 8: What Was Meant to Be

[ilovezam]

51 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Correct.

Either
A) She broke the 3rd oath and she's Black Ajah.

B) She never swore the 3rd oath.
C) She swore a different 3rd oath that allows her to protect the dragon and her warder.

Those are the only 3 possible options I see to keep the shows lore internally consistent.

I didn't read the full conversation history, but I'm inclined to agree that what Moiraine did broke the Oaths too.  Lan explicitly warns her that she might be killing innocents and she straight up said she'd sacrifice them all if it improves Rand's chances at all.

 

It seems like a bizarre loophole to the Oaths if you could just nuke people from a long range and go "oh yeah I didn't know they were Darkfriends or not, they were too far away to see, lol!"

 

But the real answer is that the show writers simply don't particularly know/care about the lore, IMO. Egwene being able to use the a'dam on her sul'dam with an intent to kill, Siuan being able to attack Lan with the Power, the absence of the two Halves, the lack of relevance of the Dragon Reborn, all points to that.

 

In season 1, Brandon Sanderson said in a podcast that Moiraine was initially written to directly kill that ship captain and his boat in one of the early episodes, before he wrote in a suggestion to change that scene because her Oaths wouldn't allow her to do that.

[Samt]

1 minute ago, ilovezam said:

Egwene being able to use the a'dam on her sul'dam with an intent to kill,

Agree with the general idea, but Egwene hasn't taken the oaths.  The way that the interlocked Damane system works is unclear, but the 3 oaths don't come into it.  

[ilovezam]

1 minute ago, Samt said:

Agree with the general idea, but Egwene hasn't taken the oaths.  The way that the interlocked Damane system works is unclear, but the 3 oaths don't come into it.  

This one is not about the Oaths, but rather the fact that she should not have been able to even pick up that collar like she couldn't pick up the jug of water. I'm talking about the disregard for the lore in general.

[nsmallw]

57 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

I'm sorry this is happening to you.

Sympathy isn't warranted to those who insist on coming into this forum only to bash the show and attempt to create false arguments and intentionally trying to bait those who enjoy the show. The show isn't perfect but it's better than not having one at all. By entering into discussion with such people, we only encourage them to continue. Ignoring them is the better option. 

If I'm wrong to say this, I'm sure the moderators will do their duty but I felt I had to say it. 

[Elder_Haman]

3 minutes ago, ilovezam said:

she should not have been able to even pick up that collar like she couldn't pick up the jug of water.

She wasn't allowed to pick up something she intended to use as a weapon to harm the sul'dam. But the collar is not a weapon and she isn't using it as one.

[Samt]

10 hours ago, ilovezam said:

This one is not about the Oaths, but rather the fact that she should not have been able to even pick up that collar like she couldn't pick up the jug of water. I'm talking about the disregard for the lore in general.

Got it.  Yeah, the working of the Adam in the show is one of the things that shouldn't really be thought about too deeply.  

 

9 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

She wasn't allowed to pick up something she intended to use as a weapon to harm the sul'dam. But the collar is not a weapon and she isn't using it as one.

Really?  She literally killed her with it.  You don't think that's kind of a weapon? Just a little bit?

[Elder_Haman]

10 hours ago, nsmallw said:

By entering into discussion with such people, we only encourage them to continue. Ignoring them is the better option. 

You are free to ignore. But people are welcome to express their opinions here whether I agree with them or not. It's not meant to be an echo chamber. Those who can't or won't defend their arguments typically leave. 

 

9 hours ago, Samt said:

Really?  She literally killed her with it.  You don't think that's kind of a weapon? Just a little bit?

The function of the collar is not as a weapon. It's purpose is only to link two channelers, something that already existed between she and Renna. Egwene could very easily keep herself in this mental fortress until free. At least that's the way I read it. 

[Samt]

2 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

The function of the collar is not as a weapon. It's purpose is only to link two channelers, something that already existed between she and Renna. Egwene could very easily keep herself in this mental fortress until free. At least that's the way I read it. 

The water jug isn't a weapon either until it is used as such.  But the intent was enough for it to be seen as a weapon.  

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

1 minute ago, Elder_Haman said:

The function of the collar is not as a weapon. It's purpose is only to link two channelers, something that already existed between she and Renna. Egwene could very easily keep herself in this mental fortress until free. At least that's the way I read it. 

But the purpose of a water pitcher is to be a weapon? It matters not what the item is, but how you intend to use it. I suppose you could argue that Egwene had realised that sul'dam could channel therefore were marath'damane so should be collared, but this stretches it a bit. She picked up the a'dam to use as a weapon, then she channeled to pick up Renna and literally hang her by her a'dam. By show lore and book lore, neither should have been possible. And in show it was not possible without the help of the trebuchets, so why not get a little help from the umpty-billion people right there that could have helped instead?

[Elder_Haman]

2 minutes ago, Samt said:

The water jug isn't a weapon either until it is used as such.  But the intent was enough for it to be seen as a weapon.  

Right. That's what I mean by the mental fortress. Egwene was able to fully rationalize her view that the collar was not a weapon. It is only a link. Renna hurts me through the link, so pain through the link is okay. Etc.

[ilovezam]

1 minute ago, Elder_Haman said:

The function of the collar is not as a weapon.

This almost sounds a little like "the function of this pistol is not as a weapon, all it does is launch a projectile at a high velocity which can happen to hurt someone when I point it at them" 😛

 

The a'dam is explicitly designed as a deeply invasive enslavement device, I don't think it's "only to link two channelers". IIRC it's supposed to be nigh impossible for damane to even contemplate causing harm to their sul'dam, but Egwene straight up collared Renna with the intention to kill her.

[Elder_Haman]

Just now, ilovezam said:

This almost sounds a little like "the function of this pistol is not as a weapon, all it does is launch a projectile at a high velocity which can happen to hurt someone when I point it at them" 😛

 

The a'dam is explicitly designed as a deeply invasive enslavement device, I don't think it's "only to link two channelers". IIRC it's supposed to be nigh impossible for damane to even contemplate causing harm to their sul'dam, but Egwene straight up collared Renna with the intention to kill her.

Again, it's the rationalization that matters. Egwene has disciplined her thoughts sufficiently that she can look at the collar and not see it as a weapon, to partition her brain where her future intentions are separated from her current thoughts.

[fearbrog]

24 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

He made the correct choice in T'a'R before freeing Ishamael. He worked his way in to get access to Logain. He killed Turak. He killed Ishamael.

Exactly he gave Ishy freedom, not exactly most heroic moment. Turak kill is literally nerf of his story, instead of meaningful struggle, show subverts scene and takes away his blade. He didn't kill Ishy by himself, he was saved by Egg and than Ishy did nothing.

 

31 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

. (Terrible choice, awful episode, forgivable due to circumstances as I've explained ad nauseum).

(2) Who did Egwene heal? That was Nynaeve

She healed Nynaeve in s1e8. That episode still happend. It's still part of show canon where Egg and Nyn saved the day and Rand let forsaken loose. Also showrunner gave away Tarwin's Gap to girls before covid. 

 

34 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

She interposed herself between Rand and Ishy. As discussed elsewhere, it is unclear to me that Ishy wanted to beat her at that point - he's playing the long game and chose to sheathe the sword.

And again she already saved herself, show didn't need to let her save the day even more. Rand could sheathe the sword and win on his own, if show would let him actually develop in organic manner and have Lan teach him.

 

39 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Despite being faced with incredible odds, she stood as a shield between Ishamael and Rand demonstrating her determination to protect her friends at any cost. You know, just like Egwene in the books.

Why couldn't Rand, being faced with incredible odds, stood as free man in defiance to Dark One and his lies and seduction and demonstrating his determination to not let himself succumb to darkness and become pawn and toy in Dark Ones hands. You know, just like Rand in the books.

[The_Watcher_And_Wanderer]

19 minutes ago, ilovezam said:

But the real answer is that the show writers simply don't particularly know/care about the lore, IMO. Egwene being able to use the a'dam on her sul'dam with an intent to kill, Siuan being able to attack Lan with the Power, the absence of the two Halves, the lack of relevance of the Dragon Reborn, all points to that.

 

Yeah, I get that dividing the OP into male and female halves might not be considered PC in todays world, but without the divide how does the taint even make sense?  Like it or not the presence of Siadar and Siadin are essential to the story. 

[Angydragon]

What to say. I liked it, full stop.

Is it faithful to the source material? It isn't

Would I have liked it if it was more faithful? Of course.

But this adaptation is what we get, and we wont have a second one at least withib the next 20 years, I keep in mind this fact whatching this show.

I liked the climax of the episode and I agree with you all there are plotholes. Huge ones (moiraine and the oaths)

But, guys, I say let's be happy for what has been done well and this episode was a good ending for this season. WAY better than season 1 and WAY WAY WAY better than S01 finale.

I'm satisfied for what this show is and I can't wait to see moghedien in action!

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

1 minute ago, Elder_Haman said:

Right. That's what I mean by the mental fortress. Egwene was able to fully rationalize her view that the collar was not a weapon. It is only a link. Renna hurts me through the link, so pain through the link is okay. Etc.

What? So why would she do it? She did it to escape, not because it was not a weapon. She literally used it as a weapon to force Renna to release her. The a'dam is not like a court of law, where a lawyer can make some convincing argument about "what if", the a'dam knows the truth. Egwene wanted to be free and wanted to use the a'dam as  a weapon to get that freedom. Arguing otherwise is..... doubt I can finish that sentence while keeping to the forum rules.

[Elder_Haman]

Just now, fearbrog said:

Exactly he gave Ishy freedom, not exactly most heroic moment. Turak kill is literally nerf of his story, instead of meaningful struggle, show subverts scene and takes away his blade. He didn't kill Ishy by himself, he was saved by Egg and than Ishy did nothing.

 

She healed Nynaeve in s1e8. That episode still happend. It's still part of show canon where Egg and Nyn saved the day and Rand let forsaken loose. Also showrunner gave away Tarwin's Gap to girls before covid. 

 

And again she already saved herself, show didn't need to let her save the day even more. Rand could sheathe the sword and win on his own, if show would let him actually develop in organic manner and have Lan teach him.

 

Why couldn't Rand, being faced with incredible odds, stood as free man in defiance to Dark One and his lies and seduction and demonstrating his determination to not let himself succumb to darkness and become pawn and toy in Dark Ones hands. You know, just like Rand in the books.

If you're determined to see the show as "women good, men bad" I am not going to be able to disabuse you of that notion. I'm sorry you don't like the show. I find the choices understandable and believe they have created a very compelling tv show that I look forward to watching each week.

[Sabio]

To me a good example of the flaw with this series is how much time was spent on Nyn not being able to heal Elayne?  Yet Rands encounter with Turak lasted 5 seconds, his dialogue with Ishy was over quickly.  The Heroes of the Horn, gone in a flash.  It really seems like the important stuff gets just rushed past and useless stuff like poor Nyn who can suddenly heal an entire cave of people just sits in the street helpless.  They spent almost an entire episode in season 1 getting us to care about this warder, just at the end to be like ok he died.  To me is a huge waste of time that could have been spent building up your main characters.  Instead they waste it on a secondary person just to kill him.  It feels like they are clueless as to what makes certain things meaningful.  Ingtar coming out as a DF and sacrifing himself was a powerful thing, Siuan knowing she is allowing the Dragon to walk freely but understands he has to do certain things was important.  It lead to her downfall, now she is surprised Moiraine didn't get a male channeler ready for the Last Battle?  Siuan is just another he needs to be chained up until the final fight, totally ruining the big risk she was taking by knowingly letting him be free and leading to her downfall..

Edited October 6, 2023 by Sabio

[Elder_Haman]

Just now, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

 Egwene wanted to be free and wanted to use the a'dam as  a weapon to get that freedom. Arguing otherwise is..... doubt I can finish that sentence while keeping to the forum rules.

Yes. And she disciplined her mind like an Aes Sedai to defeat the a'dam. It doesn't bother me. Clearly it bothers you.

[ilovezam]

4 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Again, it's the rationalization that matters. Egwene has disciplined her thoughts sufficiently that she can look at the collar and not see it as a weapon, to partition her brain where her future intentions are separated from her current thoughts.

 

If that's the case, could she not just straight up channel against Renna or cave her head in with a baseball bat by disciplining her thoughts in a way such that these actions would not be rationalized as "causing harm"?

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

1 minute ago, Elder_Haman said:

Yes. And she disciplined her mind like an Aes Sedai to defeat the a'dam. It doesn't bother me. Clearly it bothers you.

That does not make sense. She could not do so with the pitcher, why now can she do so with the a'dam? Why not with anything else? Where are you getting this info from as it was not in the episode?

 

Why are you making things up to explain what happens rather than accepting that if there is an explanation we have not been given it?

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, ilovezam said:

 

If that's the case, could she not just straight up channel against Renna or cave her head in with a baseball bat by disciplining her thoughts in a way such that these actions would not be rationalized as "causing harm"?

I don't think that's the same thing. That is causing harm, how can you say it isn't without abandoning reality entirely? But you can rationalize that the collar is not a weapon. It is a tool to link channelers and that the intention is simply to strengthen that link. It's sort of the inverse of Renna's perverted feelings about the nature of the link.

[Sabio]

2 minutes ago, ilovezam said:

 

If that's the case, could she not just straight up channel against Renna or cave her head in with a baseball bat by disciplining her thoughts in a way such that these actions would not be rationalized as "causing harm"?

The Egwene/Renna bracelet vs bracelet scene just makes my head hurt thinking about.  I really have no idea what the show as thinking when they came up with that idea.  

[Elder_Haman]

Just now, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

That does not make sense. She could not do so with the pitcher, why now can she do so with the a'dam? Why not with anything else? Where are you getting this info from as it was not in the episode?

 

Why are you making things up to explain what happens rather than accepting that if there is an explanation we have not been given it?

Because it doesn't bother me and it seems a valid enough explanation? She resisted the sul'dam at every turn. She continued to fight her capture. She was able to defy Renna during battle. I use that as circumstantial evidence that she learned to discipline her mind against the torture. Like she did in the books.

[The_Watcher_And_Wanderer]

9 minutes ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

What? So why would she do it? She did it to escape, not because it was not a weapon. She literally used it as a weapon to force Renna to release her. The a'dam is not like a court of law, where a lawyer can make some convincing argument about "what if", the a'dam knows the truth. Egwene wanted to be free and wanted to use the a'dam as  a weapon to get that freedom. Arguing otherwise is..... doubt I can finish that sentence while keeping to the forum rules.

Honestly if would have been much better writing had Egwene not killed the sul’dam and have the sul’dam ask “Why have you spared my life?” And Egwene reply, “Had I had any intention harming you I would never have been able to touch the flaming collar.” “Instead I have helped you to find your proper place as Damane. Thank you for teaching me those lessons so well.”