WoT Season 2 Episode 8: What Was Meant to Be

[Ralph]

On 10/7/2023 at 3:38 AM, Jaysen Gore said:

The Dragon rides forth on the sands of time. Weep for your salvation. I have to think that the Falme locals would have been terrified, and that's without getting into whether or not they were actually upset by the Seanchan.

 

not remembering clearly enough, but there was stuff in book 3 about the pictures of rand being sent around. does it not mention there that there were crowds celebrating? 

 

def the Shienaran soldiers swore fealty to him after Falme

[king of nowhere]

3 hours ago, Samt said:

And doing the math on Nielsen ratings from season 1, the equivalent of 2.5 million people watched the season all the way through (I say equivalent, because it’s probably a combination of a larger number of people, some of which didn’t watch the whole thing).  So if only half the people who read the books by your estimate, just watched the whole season 1, 3 times the people would have watched it that actually did.  The claim that simply getting people who read the books to watch the show wouldn’t be enough seems wrong.  

only 1 billion total minutes? well, I had no idea what are normal viewership numbers, but I find it very weird. how can they recoup their expences if they put 100 millions into a show and 2.5 million people watch it? they'd need to earn 40$ for each viewer to break even. you sure your math is right?

 

in any case, my point had nothing to do with getting book readers to watch the show. my point was that there aren't enough book readers to pick screenwriters among them, and the books are too long to ask them to read the books after they are hired

[Mirefox]

15 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

only 1 billion total minutes? well, I had no idea what are normal viewership numbers, but I find it very weird. how can they recoup their expences if they put 100 millions into a show and 2.5 million people watch it? they'd need to earn 40$ for each viewer to break even. you sure your math is right?

 

in any case, my point had nothing to do with getting book readers to watch the show. my point was that there aren't enough book readers to pick screenwriters among them, and the books are too long to ask them to read the books after they are hired

Actors are given extensive training.  Combat training, dialect training, etc.  I read something regarding the show Yellowstone where all the leads went through a week of grueling cowboy training.  Why is it too much to ask the writers to read the book?  Or how about a getaway where they all listen to the audiobook together?

 

I understand that there are 14 books, but it is clear that some writers didn’t even read the first.  That should be a basic job requirement and really shouldn’t be too much to ask.

[Samt]

12 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

only 1 billion total minutes? well, I had no idea what are normal viewership numbers, but I find it very weird. how can they recoup their expences if they put 100 millions into a show and 2.5 million people watch it? they'd need to earn 40$ for each viewer to break even. you sure your math is right?

 

in any case, my point had nothing to do with getting book readers to watch the show. my point was that there aren't enough book readers to pick screenwriters among them, and the books are too long to ask them to read the books after they are hired

I’m not sure that the 1.16 billion number is right. Someone wrote it in another thread.  My point was that 15 million reliable viewers is not some sort of drop in the bucket.  GoT had 10 million viewers at its height.  WoT definitely doesn’t have that level of viewership. 
 

I’m not suggesting that you don’t try to make a show that non-readers can still understand and enjoy.  But a big part of the success or failure of this show will come down to getting book readers to watch and keep watching the show.
 

I also don’t know how the economics of streaming works.  It’s hard to believe that Amazon is actually making money on this since it’s included in a subscription and there are no ads.  

[king of nowhere]

13 minutes ago, Samt said:

I’m not sure that the 1.16 billion number is right. Someone wrote it in another thread.  My point was that 15 million reliable viewers is not some sort of drop in the bucket.  GoT had 10 million viewers at its height.  WoT definitely doesn’t have that level of viewership. 
 

I’m not suggesting that you don’t try to make a show that non-readers can still understand and enjoy.  But a big part of the success or failure of this show will come down to getting book readers to watch and keep watching the show.
 

I also don’t know how the economics of streaming works.  It’s hard to believe that Amazon is actually making money on this since it’s included in a subscription and there are no ads.  

netflix supposedly does earn a profit, though it doesn't have that much higher number. and people only pay the subscriptions.

 

and that's how it was discovered that the whole tv shows industry was actually a face for a giant money laundering scheme 😁

[Ralph]

the insight I found most interesting in the finale was the point Ishy makes that Rand's friends could be driven to the Dark just like he himself and the others were. 

 

I had never thought of this parallel before. (also referred to by Lan.) 

 

I know in the books at least once Lews Therin (not Lews I don't like that) thinks how his arrogance drove them away, but I didn't pick up on that as a comparison between the Forsaken and Rand's friends, only between LTT and Rand

[Mailman]

4 hours ago, Ralph said:

 

 

not killing Rand instantly like it kills others is straight from the books, book 6 iirc

 

immorality????!!!!! 😜😂😂

Thats simply not true.

 

When Mat slashes the Seachan soldier in book 2 the man screams and thrashes before turning black he dies quickly but not straight away.

 

When Fain kills the renegade Ash'aman in Far Madding he manages a few steps before falling to the ground with the wound burning and blackening and then he dies.

 

When Rand is slashed by Fain he immediately screams and starts to succumb to the dagger, but he is then immediately attempted to be healed by Cadsuane . This healing fails and he is then immediately healed again by Samitsu who is considered to be among the very best of the healers among Aes Sedai even with these attempts they say he is still dying. Samitsu even says that she believes Rand would have died without the first attempt being so quick. It then requires yet another Power induced healing effort from Flinn to stop the wound from killing him and even then it is not actually healed.

 

Thats how the dagger works in the books.

It's also not a bloody light saber in the books.

Edited October 9, 2023 by Mailman

[Ralph]

19 minutes ago, Mailman said:

Thats simply not true.

 

When Mat slashes the Seachan soldier in book 2 the man screams and thrashes before turning black he dies quickly but not straight away.

 

When Fain kills the renegade Ash'aman in Far Madding he manages a few steps before falling to the ground with the wound burning and blackening and then he dies.

 

When Rand is slashed by Fain he immediately screams and starts to succumb to the dagger, but he is then immediately attempted to be healed by Cadsuane . This healing fails and he is then immediately healed again by Corele who is considered to be among the very best of the healers among Aes Sedai even with these attempts they say he is still dying. Corele even says that she believes Rand would have died without the first attempt being so quick. It then requires yet another Power induced healing effort from Flinn to stop the wound from killing him and even then it is not actually healed.

 

Thats how the dagger works in the books.

It's also not a bloody light saber in the books.

 

book 7 sorry. and clear in the book (ch 36) that Rand does not succumb as quickly as others would have, so I don't really see the problem. Rand has to have his two wounds, though he is getting them in the wrong order here. 

 

The burning thing they took from the Dark friend knife in the stable, which never fit in in the books at all

[Mailman]

10 minutes ago, Ralph said:

 

book 7 sorry. and clear in the book (ch 36) that Rand does not succumb as quickly as others would have, so I don't really see the problem. Rand has to have his two wounds, though he is getting them in the wrong order here. 

 

The burning thing they took from the Dark friend knife in the stable, which never fit in in the books at all

Rubbish he was healed by the power twice immediately after the taking the wound and was completely incapacitated by the cut.

 

The renegade Ash'aman did not die immediately he noticed the cut heard Fain speak to him and then walked a few steps before trying to run before he fell. If he had the healing Rand got its entirely possible he could have survived as well.

 

What makes you think we are getting another wound. Ishy used a quarterstaff in the falme fight and he was just stabbed by a quarterstaff with the dagger attached. My guess is this is it for the wound in his side.

 

That dagger in the books caused a faint wisp of smoke to rise when it was plunged into a wooden post. Comparing it to cutting through a metal lock is insane.

Edited October 9, 2023 by Mailman

[Elder_Haman]

7 minutes ago, Mailman said:

Rubbish he was healed by the power twice immediately after the taking the wound and was completely incapacitated by the cut.

 

The renegade Ash'aman did not die immediately he noticed the cut heard Fain speak to him and then walked a few steps before trying to run before he fell. If he had the healing Rand got its entirely possible he could have survived as well.

 

What makes you think we are getting another wound. Ishy used a quarterstaff in the falme fight and he was just stabbed by a quarterstaff with the dagger attached. My guess is this is it for the wound in his side.

There's a first time for everything...

I agree with @Mailman. I have no idea what the Dagger does or doesn't do or how it works. I know it's EVIL^TM. That's about it. It's my biggest gripe with the show so far.

[Mailman]

6 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

There's a first time for everything...

I agree with @Mailman. I have no idea what the Dagger does or doesn't do or how it works. I know it's EVIL^TM. That's about it. It's my biggest gripe with the show so far.

Lol thanks.

 

Talking about the dagger I am not even sure why Mat would have even thought it could cut through metal, to the best of my knowledge it's never been shown to do this before and it's not something you are likely to think of as a possibility.

[Elder_Haman]

18 minutes ago, Mailman said:

Lol thanks.

 

Talking about the dagger I am not even sure why Mat would have even thought it could cut through metal, to the best of my knowledge it's never been shown to do this before and it's not something you are likely to think of as a possibility.

Very inconsistent. I think we are supposed to infer that his time with it taught him that it had those capabilities. It was never shown to us. Nor ever explained how Loial survived. It's BAD and EVIL and apparently acid.

[ForsakenPotato]

Am very late catching up on the last two episodes because I was abroad. I think I'm in the minority when I say I feel very similarly about the season 2 finale as how I felt for the season 1 finale. Both were entertaining and had their moments (and honestly, some improvements over the book events), but weren't exceptional and had a lot of confusing parts. However, season 2 overall has been much more evenly paced and fun, and I love watching the kiddos grow in their character and power.

 

I wish some scenes had been skipped in order to give more time to others. For example, I don't think we needed that entire tea scene with Ishamael and Mat. Mat already feels bad about himself, and viewers already know that. Would have rather seen him steal the horn and dagger himself in that time than just have both conveniently handed to him later. Love seeing him with a staff and speaking in tongues though, and generally enjoying his character a lot! I'm also super excited about Moghedien, but her introduction took a while given she mostly just kept repeating the same phrase. I would rather have some of that time added to the fights our main characters were involved in (for example, the Perrin/Hopper/Whitecloak situation felt rushed).

 

I'm glad Moiraine and Lan have ended their tiresome drama. The mechanics of the Seanchan being able to shield Rand from far away with little visibility and Moiraine being able to interrupt it from quite a distance (and probably in violation of the oaths) was strange, but maybe I'm misremembering if distance mattered so much for channeling in the books. I'm really loving how the show is giving us a ton of direct parallels between Moiraine and Lanfear -- both powerful, determined, ruthless older women and both ostensibly helping Rand but never being fully transparent. It's not a connection I remember thinking much about in the books, but it makes Rand's attitude toward them both more understandable and will make eventual interactions between the two of them more interesting.

[Agitel]

In the books, Toveine (Aes Sedai of the Red Ajah leading the failed expedition to end the Black Tower) knows that you do not need line of sight to weave, but most of the men she's encountered don't know that, so when she's shielded she tries to flee out of sight. In her experience the men (who in the past had nor formal training) would be unable to hold the weave once she was out of sight. But that was just their ignorance lack of training, because it is possible.

[ilovezam]

6 hours ago, Ralph said:

sorry if already given in the next eight pages that I have not yet read, but could you post the source of this - I have not seen it

https://www.brandonsanderson.com/some-thoughts-from-brandon-on-episode-two/

Here's him writing about a little about the Oaths about that episode on his site.

I believe he goes into more detail in a podcast, I'll add it here if I can find it again

[A Memory Of Why]

36 minutes ago, ForsakenPotato said:

maybe I'm misremembering if distance mattered so much for channeling in the books

 

Yeah they can channel over a fair distance, I think it's a sight limitation or some such.

 

E.g. Carrheinin battle, Rand an Co in the tower were using a telescope to take advantage of this.

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

1 hour ago, A Memory Of Why said:

Yeah they can channel over a fair distance, I think it's a sight limitation or some such.

 

E.g. Carrheinin battle, Rand an Co in the tower were using a telescope to take advantage of this.

But - the book lore is explicit that creating an effect at distance is much more effort than creating the same effect close up - hence Rand using an angreal wears himself out by acting as artillery support all day to the point where he nearly burns himself out.  Egwene and Aviendha doing far less in total without angreal are worn out far sooner (but have the sense to stop at that point).

 

Therefore at the distance of half a mile or so in book lore the shields even from the strongest Damane available to Suroth should have been so week that even 8 of them could not hold Rand.   At the even greater distance Moiraine (who book lore is not strong in fire) should not have been able to blow up the front of one ship.

 

The bowl of winds main benefit is to allow the channeling taking place close to the user to have an effect which extends to a much wider area avoiding this problem. 

 

Show lore clearly does not allow for this leveraging effect.

[trw1972]

I have watched it three times and i was very entertained. I do hope Rand comes into his own in S3 and we see some awesome rand time as i think the girls have had plenty of time being the stars now. 

 

I was really pleased to see mat blow the horn, yes the storyline has changed but i think much of that was forced onto the show and think the new actor is great.

 

I actually prefer show forsaken to book forsaken so far (dont shoot me for saying that please!) I think all the forsaken actors are brill so far. I think on the show i have been team lanfear for the last few episodes (i see her her 'show' motive is to see rand rise to power so she can take him as hers and have more power herself but i love the show version)

 

The one 'wtf' moment for me was loial and ingtar rocking up with the horn.

 

BUT- i tend to watch fantasy shows or any show with magic etc the way i watch marvel films. I sit back, suspend disbelief and hope to be entertained. If i sat there looking for changes or inconsistencies or worrying about the magic rules- then yes i would probably dislike the episode.

Edited October 9, 2023 by trw1972

[Ralph]

5 hours ago, ilovezam said:

https://www.brandonsanderson.com/some-thoughts-from-brandon-on-episode-two/

Here's him writing about a little about the Oaths about that episode on his site.

I believe he goes into more detail in a podcast, I'll add it here if I can find it again

Thank you. very interesting. I don't recall seeing this. 

 

this gets us into the question (which I was thinking re e8 anyway) - is sinking a ship someone is on "using the Power as a weapon" when you would be perfectly happy for them to survive unharmed, you just want the ship gone?

 

 

Edited October 9, 2023 by Ralph

[Mailman]

21 minutes ago, Ralph said:

Thank you. very interesting. I don't recall seeing this. 

 

this gets us into the question (which I was thinking re e8 anyway) - is sinking a ship someone is on "using the Power as a weapon" when you would be perfectly happy for them to survive unharmed, you just want the ship gone?

 

 

Well its a weapon for sure, it's the target of the weapon that is in question. The fact she says she would kill 1000 innocents before launching the attack would indicate that she was aware the weapon would kill people which makes it a large question mark against the oaths.

 

It's questionable if she could even make the statement itself as she knows she is unable to kill an innocent and she is also under the oath to speak no word that is not true. Although she could just be planning on killing them all without the aid of the power i suppose.

Edited October 9, 2023 by Mailman

[Ralph]

1 hour ago, Mailman said:

Well its a weapon for sure, it's the target of the weapon that is in question. The fact she says she would kill 1000 innocents before launching the attack would indicate that she was aware the weapon would kill people which makes it a large question mark against the oaths.

 

It's questionable if she could even make the statement itself as she knows she is unable to kill an innocent and she is also under the oath to speak no word that is not true. Although she could just be planning on killing them all without the aid of the power i suppose.

 

 

is something a weapon if it kills people when that was not the purpose, although you knew it would happen?

 

could an AS divert a runaway train from hitting people, although it may well kill some of the people on board because she did so? 

 

 

[Mailman]

8 minutes ago, Ralph said:

 

is something a weapon if it kills people when that was not the purpose, although you knew it would happen?

 

could an AS divert a runaway train from hitting people, although it may well kill some of the people on board because she did so? 

 

 

Its a weapon because she is using it to attack the ships or the Seachan channelers.

 

There is no ulterior motive involved here. She can't have thought you know what the ships are lacking is some fire I'll give them some I'm sure that what they really need is some fire because they are sitting in all that water.

 

She could try and save the train because thats what she is intending to do.

 

Intent is key.

Edited October 9, 2023 by Mailman

[DaddyFinn]

Oaths are full of loopholes and only as binding as an Aes Sedai allows them to be. That's why they don't work

[Mailman]

Just now, DaddyFinn said:

Oaths are full of loopholes and only as binding as an Aes Sedai allows them to be. That's why they don't work

Thats not true.

 

If spoken clearly all who know of the oaths now that the words are true.

If you are not a DF and are not threatening an Aes Seadi or warder she cannot attack you with the power.

 

The loopholes only apply with ambiguous speech.

[fra85uk]

At Dumai Wells, the AS clearly put themselves in danger to be able to fight, i.e. to avoid being bound by the Oaths.