WoT Season 2 Episode 8: What Was Meant to Be

[DaddyFinn]

The Horn is a magical instrument.. Who cares if it wouldn't work IRL?

[Mirefox]

4 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

There are 10 openings on the picture you posted.

 

First, I didn’t post a picture.  Second, I believe that the only way a Klein bottle exists is with 1 opening.  

[Mirefox]

2 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

The Horn is a magical instrument.. Who cares if it wouldn't work IRL?

I care only insomuch as it’s supposed to be a horn.  The books say it’s a normal looking horn with an inscription.  Sure, I’ll accept that it can work magically.  

[Elder_Haman]

18 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

First, I didn’t post a picture.  Second, I believe that the only way a Klein bottle exists is with 1 opening.  

Sorry, the picture you referenced. 

[SinisterDeath]

49 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

Klein bottle cannot be a horn, though, as there is only one opening.  A horn has to have 2.

 

45 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

There are 10 openings on the picture you posted.

 

There are "openings" on the "outside" of the horn.
The Horn of Valere isn't just a "horn", it is an Artifact from another age.

In the books it's described as looking like an "Ordinary golden horn".

Then we have the chapter icon.

That's not an "ordinary horn". It's similar to the wheel/serpent. It's not quiet a mobius strip, but the geometry of it doesn't make sense. 

 

That's why I like what's shown in the episode. It's attempting to show some of these strange other worldly objects that the books describe as "not making sense" and "your eyes slip slip away..."

I think had they made the Horn of Valere this:

It would have lost it's visual magic on screen.

[Mirefox]

1 hour ago, SinisterDeath said:

 

There are "openings" on the "outside" of the horn.
The Horn of Valere isn't just a "horn", it is an Artifact from another age.

In the books it's described as looking like an "Ordinary golden horn".

Then we have the chapter icon.

That's not an "ordinary horn". It's similar to the wheel/serpent. It's not quiet a mobius strip, but the geometry of it doesn't make sense. 

 

That's why I like what's shown in the episode. It's attempting to show some of these strange other worldly objects that the books describe as "not making sense" and "your eyes slip slip away..."

I think had they made the Horn of Valere this:

It would have lost it's visual magic on screen.

You want magic?  He should have pulled an alphorn out of that little box and just kept pulling it out for about 30 seconds.

[EmreY]

For extra magic, everyone coming out of the fog could have one too.  They could then proceed to blow away all enemies.

 

 

 

 

[Yamezt]

3 hours ago, Mirefox said:

Damane pacifiers as one of the worst props of the show?

 

Probably discussed elsewhere (haven't had the chance to read all the forums yet!) - I think they are a callback to slave mouth pieces used in real world history. Also pretty demeaning with the infantile association in modern day and the fact that the damane has to leave it on willingly showing how much control the sul'dam have over them.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slave_iron_bit

 

I thought it was a pretty effective prop as the collar visually did not bring the same sense of horror when Egwene had to wear it - at least it did for me.

[EmreY]

Continuing with the horn "problem", I'm surprised some die-hard WOT fan hasn't made a replica yet and seen what it really sounds like.

[SinisterDeath]

29 minutes ago, EmreY said:

For extra magic, everyone coming out of the fog could have one too.  They could then proceed to blow away all enemies.

 

 

 

 

Oddly Relevant? 

 

[Mirefox]

27 minutes ago, EmreY said:

Continuing with the horn "problem", I'm surprised some die-hard WOT fan hasn't made a replica yet and seen what it really sounds like.

Unless there is an opening on the side, it wouldn’t sound.  It would be like blowing into a milk jug.  Perhaps Mat is a flautist and is expertly blowing across the mouthpiece?

[Mirefox]

2 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

 

There are "openings" on the "outside" of the horn.
The Horn of Valere isn't just a "horn", it is an Artifact from another age.

In the books it's described as looking like an "Ordinary golden horn".

Then we have the chapter icon.

That's not an "ordinary horn". It's similar to the wheel/serpent. It's not quiet a mobius strip, but the geometry of it doesn't make sense. 

 

That's why I like what's shown in the episode. It's attempting to show some of these strange other worldly objects that the books describe as "not making sense" and "your eyes slip slip away..."

I think had they made the Horn of Valere this:

It would have lost it's visual magic on screen.

The chapter icon is just an early French horn without valves.

 

 

[SinisterDeath]

2 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

Unless there is an opening on the side, it wouldn’t sound.  It would be like blowing into a milk jug.  Perhaps Mat is a flautist and is expertly blowing across the mouthpiece?

... we've covered this. There's even a picture that shows it.
Here... I'll point it out to ya...

[LightHelpMe]

6 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

His defence now is battle lust in the middle of a fight so what he did is not murder, is not illegal.

I realize it was battle lust, but he didn't kill the Whitecloak that was trying to kill him. He killed the man who killed Hopper. And he wasn't there to fight Whitecloaks, he was there to fight Seanchan. I'm not talking about it holding up in court, I'm talking about what is going to do to Perrin. In the books, he only kills Whitecloaks in self defense, and he kills enemies in battle. He could easily see Eamon Valda as an enemy, but not Bornhald.

[Mirefox]

2 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

... we've covered this. There's even a picture that shows it.
Here... I'll point it out to ya...

Huh.  Those don’t look like openings to me, but ok.  Stil looks more like a watering can; just a leaky one.

[SinisterDeath]

11 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

The chapter icon is just an early French horn without valves.

 

 

Yeah no. That chapter icon isn't just a "french horn". There's more going on then a "french horn" without valves".

Here's the chapter icon next to that image as a comparison.

 

And then to make the obvious point since it's not obvious.

[Rhaze]

20 hours ago, LightHelpMe said:

You only need to ask ONE question and the whole scene with Egwene freeing herself falls apart. And why not ask? Don't we want better writing than that?

 

I'm loving Lanfear too. She was rather dull in the books, same thing over and over.

 

I cried when Hopper died. I knew it had to come, but it happened kind of suddenly. Oh, who am I kidding. I would have cried no matter what. Just maybe not have yelled No! I hope we see Valda with a horribly mangled arm.

 

Rand and Ishamael "battle" was so anti-climatic. But if he did just give up and let Rand kill him, he's gonna find out the DO has a nasty sense of humor because there is no way the show is killing him of for good.

 

Moghedien was creepy, but I liked it. In the books she usually seemed rather pathetic.

 The big glaring hole with the Ishamael thing was the fact Ishamael KNOWS the DO isnt going to just let him go but immediately spin him back out. Nothing about it made sense except they needed Ishamael to die without giving Rand enough power or taveren to do it. So they came up with some really silly BS that they want fans to just accept, dont ask questions, and move on... The show is enjoyable, but once again, it will never be great because the writers dont care  if it is great, good enough is good enough for them.

[LightHelpMe]

11 hours ago, Requiem said:

That's just not true, Renna unlocked and released the adam before she died, with the expectation that if she did Egwene would do the same for her and was then shocked that Egwene let her die.

I just rewatched that bit and you're right. I guess we're supposed to assume Renna communicated her will to remove the collar as she took the arm band off because Renna took it every time she left Egwene's cell, and Egwene was still controlled through the a'dam.

 

I would rather have seen Nyaneave and Elayne execute their plan, because you know the first question they asked Seta was how to remove an a'dam. Egwene could have done with Renna from there, and we wouldn't have the problem of how Egwene was able to touch something she intended to use to hurt her Suldam.

[LightHelpMe]

2 minutes ago, Rhaze said:

The show is enjoyable, but once again, it will never be great because the writers dont care  if it is great, good enough is good enough for them.

I'm in the same camp. They allow continuity errors that could easily be avoided, and cheesy crap like the magic Captain America shield, and give the show runner's favorite character 2 big moments, neither of which she should have been capable of. People are having to explain how Moiraine didn't break one of the Oaths which could have been avoided simply with different dialogue.

 

Maybe Ishamael thinks because he failed to turn Rand he'll get to enjoy blissful death until the Dragon is reborn again or that the other Forsaken can take him out. But, no, it really doesn't make sense for him to just stand there and wait for Rand to stab him.

 

It's fun to discuss and theorize, but not about stuff that is simply a matter of less than great writing.

[Scarloc99]

9 hours ago, Gypsum said:

The collar thing was also a bit baffling now that you got me thinking about it. Perhaps more so than Moiraine's fiery assault on the ships. As per the show's own rules -- the whole thing with the water jug -- Egwene surely should not have been able to pick up the other damane's collar, much less place it on Renna.

Is the collar a weapon and is Renna a Sul Damane if it is that is the question here. I know she is wearing the bracelet but the power of the collar means the Damane can't just not hurt her Suldamane, she can't hurt anyone she is not directed to, otherwise Damane could kill each others Sul Damane, or each other in suicide pacts. 

But we do know that Channellers who are not collared are blanket considered an enemy of the Seanchan, I might be wrong but have we seen Damane collar free women in the series? 

Anyway if you take this logic, the moment that Egwene considers Renna to be a channeller who is uncollared then instantly collaring becomes something she can't just do, but she must do. At that point Renna is not her Sul Damane. 

But there is another element to this, when she collars Renna Renna laughs at her, tells her that the collar has no effect, so from Renna's perspective the collar used in that way is in no way a weapon, and like when Egwene used the jug to pour water and could touch it, she is allowed to use the collar as it is intended because it is no threat as far as Renna is concerned. 

 

If she had used the collar in any other way, trying to use a sharp edge to slice, or as a blunt weapon, then she gets stopped but she isn't, the collar is being used for it's intended purpose, and that purpose is no threat to a Sul Damane.

[Yamezt]

25 minutes ago, LightHelpMe said:

I would rather have seen Nyaneave and Elayne execute their plan, because you know the first question they asked Seta was how to remove an a'dam. Egwene could have done with Renna from there, and we wouldn't have the problem of how Egwene was able to touch something she intended to use to hurt her Suldam.

 

I am probably in the minority, but I rather liked Egwene freed herself. It was a surprise when it happened, but it felt satisfying to me as a resolution.

 

I don't really have issues with Egwene touching the collar. While she suspects that Sul'dam can channel, she doesn't actually know it would work. She only worked it out for sure once the collar formed. I feel that in that heat of the situation she is hoping that it works and snares Renna - the intent to hurt psychically probably formed once she knew for sure it worked.

 

The thing that puzzled me more was - who was heading the link? But then the a'dam is always rather weird even in the novels because while the person wearing the braclet heads the link and therefore directs the flow, she can allow the collar-ed person to direct the flow in the books. It was always a strange rule.

Edited October 10, 2023 by Yamezt

[Scarloc99]

12 hours ago, LTL said:

Do we see any examples in the 14 book WOT series of Aes Sedai using the one power against an enemy structure when it is not in defence of their or their warder's life? Genuine question, the answer may be yes. If not then it seems pretty unlikely that RJ was using an incorrect interpretation of the word "weapon". If yes then it becomes much murkier.

I need to go back to episode 1 but at the very start didn't Moiraine destroy the wall of the inn to kill a load of trollocs? That act may well have put innocents at risk, all that flying rock, the chance of the inn collapsing, if you extrapolate this out then Moiraine destroying the ships is a similair thing. Innocents might be hurt but it is for the greater good. 

But as it goes we din't need to question this scene, even though everyon seems to want to. Moiraine tells Lan, They are shielding the dragon reborn, Ishmael is up there Rand is in danger and if he dies the entire world burns (or words to that effect). lan then tells her that innocent people may be hurt, and she makes that choice, the trolley problem and decides to destroyb the ships to free Rand and therefore save the world. 

Now everyone is sayng this goes against the books but, at any point in the books did we ever see a similar situation, I am not saying infer, or guess did we ever see an Aes Sedai have the option of either do nothing and a worse evil happens, or risk an innocent and stop that great evil. If we didnt (and we didn't) then actually we can't say that this situation is not valid and we can't say the 3 rulew would not allow it. The fact is that one of the weakneses of the 3 laws that we see all the time is that Aes Sedai can work round them all the time, the one we see them do this with the most is telling the truth. but we also see Aes Sedai stroll into the middle of a full on battle with Aiel just to ensure they are "at risk enough", we see them manipulate around the oaths in al sorts of ways. If it is not categorically stated that this is not possible, and no I won't take opinion as proof, then I am sorry, it is actually possible in the rules of the world. 

[Yamezt]

17 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

Now everyone is sayng this goes against the books but, at any point in the books did we ever see a similar situation, I am not saying infer, or guess did we ever see an Aes Sedai have the option of either do nothing and a worse evil happens, or risk an innocent and stop that great evil. 

Top of my head:

 

Book 2 - Siuan? or one of the Aes Sedai commented how they called the winds to speed up cuz they were in a rush and were so sad they flooded villages on the way, damaging crops and basically f up the weather. They were rushing to meet Moiraine and see to see Rand I think.

 

Book 3? Elayne tried being smart with Verin by saying blowing up the ground near a whitecloak(?) does not constitute using the one power as a weapon. Now Verin did give her a earful. But at the same time, if Elayne had the oaths and genuinely believed she complied with the oaths, she would be to have done so. So I guess the interpretation of why certain events constitute the one power as a weapon is probably indoctrinated by the white tower.

 

Edited October 10, 2023 by Yamezt

[Scarloc99]

40 minutes ago, Rhaze said:

 The big glaring hole with the Ishamael thing was the fact Ishamael KNOWS the DO isnt going to just let him go but immediately spin him back out. Nothing about it made sense except they needed Ishamael to die without giving Rand enough power or taveren to do it. So they came up with some really silly BS that they want fans to just accept, dont ask questions, and move on... The show is enjoyable, but once again, it will never be great because the writers dont care  if it is great, good enough is good enough for them.

I mean, we don't know that Ishmael knows that, we know that Ishmael was imprisoned, and he might hope that the DO is going to leave him dead. 

 

But, maybe, just maybe, he has a plan, maybe, you either Turn Rand at this early point, or, you have to let Rand think he has won a victory in order to ensure he does the next thing to allow you to win the war for the DO, maybe this is all part of a plan, in the books it is not, in the books Ishy dies, and then RJ realises he has another load of books to write and he is killing off his big bad guys at an alarming rate of knots, so he creates a way to keep brining them back over and over. So when Ishy dies in the books he has no idea that he is coming back, he tells Rand, it was my punishment for failing with you. 

 

So either this ishy is the same, ignorant to the fact he is about to come back, or, he is well aware and it is all part of the plan. 

[Scarloc99]

31 minutes ago, LightHelpMe said:

I'm in the same camp. They allow continuity errors that could easily be avoided, and cheesy crap like the magic Captain America shield, and give the show runner's favorite character 2 big moments, neither of which she should have been capable of. People are having to explain how Moiraine didn't break one of the Oaths which could have been avoided simply with different dialogue.

 

Maybe Ishamael thinks because he failed to turn Rand he'll get to enjoy blissful death until the Dragon is reborn again or that the other Forsaken can take him out. But, no, it really doesn't make sense for him to just stand there and wait for Rand to stab him.

 

It's fun to discuss and theorize, but not about stuff that is simply a matter of less than great writing.

Sorry until we see the whole we cannot even begin to question that this is "bad writing" Rafe has said in multiple interviews that he has the benefit of knowing all the books and he has a massive board full of post it notes mapping out the story from start to end, maybe you prefer your TV in neat little hour long packages that answer every question within the 60 minutes, I am perfectly happy if something is left unresolved now and then revealed in 6 seasons time to all have been done for a reason. I don't even care if that reasoning is figured out after the event. One of my fav shows was the new Battle Star Galactica, a show that showed deep levels of lore and foreshadowing that seemed to be very cleverly mapped out from episode one when things where revelaed. Turns out the writers and show runners wrote season to season and woud go back and take random things they had done in a prior season and then make it into something for now, the fans thought it was really clever, it was, but not in the way they thought. 

 

Claiming that keeping the viewer and the characters ignorant of hidden purposes, even in interviews in the role of a writer, is bad writing is really backwards thinking.