WoT Season 2 Episode 7: Daes Dae'Mar

[Ralph]

New topic - just saw Unraveling the Pattern's theory that Siuan was Compelled to act as she did in this Ep. 

 

What do y'all thinks? 

 

not certain how to connect the dots, but we have not had any follow up from Liandrin asking Leane if she even knows where the Amyrlin is. 

 

is this all part of the "crippled" Amyrlin? and bringing about the coup, of course

[Finnssss22]

18 hours ago, Guire said:

Its being pretty nit picky but the show just got the green fields and spring dress by Siuan and Moraine wrong.  I assume because they wanted a light mood while they flirted.

 

Aiel war ended in winter.  Rand was born in roughly December.  Tar Valon is fairly far north in Westlands.  Sure there may not be snow in lowlands but that grass would be almost all brown.  At top of White Tower it would be quite chilly even on a sunny day.  In New Spring Lan's last battle before Aiel withdrew it was very cold.  When Mo and Siuan went out to collect birth info it was very cold.  Not a big deal but an error.

 

They changed most of it really. The weather was the least of it lol.

First off Mo and Su were still accepted at the time.

Second, they weren't alone. The then current Amyrlin Seat Tamra was also present who then swore them to silence that they were even there and sent them back to their rooms.

Tamra then secretly sent a few of her most trusted sisters out to find the Dragon. Unfortunately the Black Ajah figured out something was up, they then tortured and killed Tamra and found out about the foretelling and which sisters she had sent out but not about Mo and Su's presence in the room.

The Black then sent out their own hunters for the Dragon as well as Tamra's hunters which they did and killed them all.

It was after Tamra's mysterious death and the disappearance of those Sister's Mo and especially Su knew were closest to Tamra that the two of them knew they had to be the ones to carry on Tamra's orders in secret.

[Mirefox]

4 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

Cause she’s not ready to let Moiraine (or anyone else) know about traveling. 

I accept that. 

[Elder_Haman]

2 hours ago, Finnssss22 said:

 

They changed most of it really. The weather was the least of it lol.

First off Mo and Su were still accepted at the time.

Second, they weren't alone. The then current Amyrlin Seat Tamra was also present who then swore them to silence that they were even there and sent them back to their rooms.

Tamra then secretly sent a few of her most trusted sisters out to find the Dragon. Unfortunately the Black Ajah figured out something was up, they then tortured and killed Tamra and found out about the foretelling and which sisters she had sent out but not about Mo and Su's presence in the room.

The Black then sent out their own hunters for the Dragon as well as Tamra's hunters which they did and killed them all.

It was after Tamra's mysterious death and the disappearance of those Sister's Mo and especially Su knew were closest to Tamra that the two of them knew they had to be the ones to carry on Tamra's orders in secret.

I really wish they'd stuck to this. Would have been more compelling IMO.

[Chivalry]

7 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

I wonder, and I'm not alone with this idea, that maybe the show tries to avoid "power creep" in early seasons. Show our characters struggle some more and slowly take on their supposed roles as leaders, soldiers, kings etc. S3/S4 they might be set in their roles 

 

In other words: keep the tension and danger throughout the series so it doesn't feel like a walk in the park like the books did so often.

 

Editedit. That doesn't mean our heroes shouldn't get wins and cool moments when they are due

 

I definitely think this is the case, and that heightening the tension is one of the objectives. And I can see the benefit of weakening the young folk, so that they arrive at their strength through a process. 

 

Still, I felt the books established early on that Moiraine was special, even among Aes Sedai, and Lan was special, even among warders. Seeing them fail so often so early (or at least seeing them diminished, in the case of Moiraine) has been a bit of a letdown.

 

Part of this, of course, is personal taste. We're not all going to appreciate the same aspects of the books. I do think RJ "trained" the readers to expect certain hierarchies (for lack of a better word), and he was a stickler for certain things (like what could and could not be said about the One Power). This person is stronger than that one by this much, this person is taller than that one, this person is more capable in this way than that one. After so many pages, we get accustomed to this type of precision.

 

And the series does not seem at all attached to any of this sentiment. Does it matter? It might to some of us, but not everyone.

Edited October 3, 2023 by Chivalry

[DreadLord31]

27 minutes ago, Chivalry said:

 

I definitely think this is the case, and that heightening the tension is one of the objectives. And I can see the benefit of weakening the young folk, so that they arrive at their strength through a process. 

 

Still, I felt the books established early on that Moiraine was special, even among Aes Sedai, and Lan was special, even among warders. Seeing them fail so often so early (or at least seeing them diminished, in the case of Moiraine) has been a bit of a letdown.

 

Part of this, of course, is personal taste. We're not all going to appreciate the same aspects of the books. I do think RJ "trained" the readers to expect certain hierarchies (for lack of a better word), and he was a stickler for certain things (like what could and could not be said about the One Power). This person is stronger than that one by this much, this person is taller than that one, this person is more capable in this way than that one. After so many pages, we get accustomed to this type of precision.

 

And the series does not seem at all attached to any of this sentiment. Does it matter? It might to some of us, but not everyone.

yes, yes. I agree. Moiraine is too tall. 😉

[Jaysen Gore]

6 hours ago, Ralph said:

New topic - just saw Unraveling the Pattern's theory that Siuan was Compelled to act as she did in this Ep. 

 

What do y'all thinks? 

 

not certain how to connect the dots, but we have not had any follow up from Liandrin asking Leane if she even knows where the Amyrlin is. 

 

is this all part of the "crippled" Amyrlin? and bringing about the coup, of course

I think it would be dumb to reveal this was compulsion. Our heroes need to make honest mistakes, not just be forced into them by the Dark.  From Siuan's POV, her lover just lied to her, and then showed up with the Dragon Reborn and a Forsaken. For a person trained since girlhood to defend against the shadow, she would have reacted almost instantly. 

[Jaysen Gore]

2 hours ago, Chivalry said:

 

I definitely think this is the case, and that heightening the tension is one of the objectives. And I can see the benefit of weakening the young folk, so that they arrive at their strength through a process. 

 

Still, I felt the books established early on that Moiraine was special, even among Aes Sedai, and Lan was special, even among warders. Seeing them fail so often so early (or at least seeing them diminished, in the case of Moiraine) has been a bit of a letdown.

 

Part of this, of course, is personal taste. We're not all going to appreciate the same aspects of the books. I do think RJ "trained" the readers to expect certain hierarchies (for lack of a better word), and he was a stickler for certain things (like what could and could not be said about the One Power). This person is stronger than that one by this much, this person is taller than that one, this person is more capable in this way than that one. After so many pages, we get accustomed to this type of precision.

 

And the series does not seem at all attached to any of this sentiment. Does it matter? It might to some of us, but not everyone.

No one is allowed to go through a story without undertaking some version of the hero's journey.  It's not enough to show their character growth, they have to grow in power as well. I absolutely knew Lan was going to eat the Nerf bat, as was Moiraine. This is Hollywood, where Elrond told an 80 year old Aragorn "Become the King you were Born to be", as if he hadn't been for 50+ years already.

 

Another way they've succeeded in weakening the kids is by removing the 5 speedbump Forsaken. Not only did they not make much of a difference, they showed that Rand and Moiraine were matches for them in books 3 and 1 respectively.

 

there have been direct views of different level of power amongst channellers, but the signs  - number of threads, precision of lines, speed - are subtle, and I would not expect to get massive discussions about comparative strength.  I mean, whole chapters were dedicated to it in the books. When we have 64 hours, that's way too nuanced a topic to bring up. 

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

8 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

This is Hollywood, where Elrond told an 80 year old Aragorn "Become the King you were Born to be", as if he hadn't been for 50+ years already.

Given that at this stage Elrond is over 6,000 years old and has spent the whole third age as effective king of the high elves in middle earth from his perspective 80 years is hardly significant and Aragorn is still just starting out (and in the films at least he has not been seeking to take up the burden of kingship).

[EmreY]

7 hours ago, Ralph said:

New topic - just saw Unraveling the Pattern's theory that Siuan was Compelled to act as she did in this Ep. 

 

What do y'all thinks? 

 

not certain how to connect the dots, but we have not had any follow up from Liandrin asking Leane if she even knows where the Amyrlin is. 

 

is this all part of the "crippled" Amyrlin? and bringing about the coup, of course

 

I don't think so, mainly because it's unnecessary.  I mean, what would you do in Siuan's shoes?  You've laid down the law as Amyrlin, kept a guard on the Dragon, and then find that some people have somehow subverted the guard, the Dragon has disappeared and the natural conclusion is that Moiraine is likely to be involved (leaving Verin till later).  You figure out one way or another that they're off to the Waygate and turn up to find it being opened by Moiraine.  

 

On a related note, I've always been slightly perplexed by Moiraine's statement at Merrilor that she was perhaps even on the way to being stilled.  At least now there's good excuse for her to be declared an outlaw.

[Finnssss22]

6 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

I really wish they'd stuck to this. Would have been more compelling IMO.

Yeah me too as the dominoes that fall and the chain of events after this is basically how Siuan ends up being Amyrlin and Aviarin ending up as head of the Black Ajah.

After Tamra is killed by the Black, a hardass Grey becomes Amyrlin but within 5 years she pisses the Reds off so bad they have her killed. Seriously right lol

Then another fearsome woman becomes Amyrlin from the Blue I believe and she catches the Reds gentling men on the spot without trial or even informing the Tower they were doing it. These Reds are punished and 3 are even exiled from the Tower.

Then she after about 4 years, being almost 300 years old passes of natural causes.

Meanwhile the Black sister hunters kill all of Tamra's hunters, even lose a few themselves and are not only killing any child they find born close to when the Dragon was, they're also killing kids that are kinda close that exhibit any out of the ordinary good luck. 

This is when Ishamael makes his set every 1000 year appearance, he finds out that the head of the Black Ajah wasn't trying to just find the Dragon Reborn but is trying to kill him. He is furious, loses his sh!t and kills her where she stands which in turn is how Alviarin becomes the new head of the Black.

 

So now with all the killing along with the exiles, every sister that was strongest in the Power or held a lot of influence were gone leaving Moiraine, Siuan, Leane, Sheriam and Elaida as the strongest in the One Power Aes Sedai left outside of Cadsuane who most of the Tower thought was passed by now anyway.

That paved the way for Siuan to become Amyrlin, Leane her Keeper and Sheriam as Mistress of the Novices while Moiraine was free to search for the Dragon Reborn. Elaida took off to Caemlyn because of her own Foretelling as an Accepted about the Lion Throne being the key to the Last Battle or something like that (this actually had to do with Rand's mother Tigraine not the current line so tough luck b!tch lol). It also helped that she was one of the Reds that was punished but not exiled for Gentling men illegally and getting out of the Tower for a bit sounded like a good idea lol

 

At the same time, all this said, I don't think there was any way they were getting all this into the TV show. Hell we all had to dig and dig just to figure it all out from the books. Most of this was not surface information that you're putting together in just one read through lol

Hopefully we get a little of it though, even if it's just some Easter Eggs. That would be cool.

Edited October 3, 2023 by Finnssss22

[Elendir]

7 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

I really wish they'd stuck to this. Would have been more compelling IMO.

 

I don't. It is better to give that time to living character - active actor of story, than to characters who are long dead .

[Scarloc99]

11 hours ago, Ralph said:

New topic - just saw Unraveling the Pattern's theory that Siuan was Compelled to act as she did in this Ep. 

 

What do y'all thinks? 

 

not certain how to connect the dots, but we have not had any follow up from Liandrin asking Leane if she even knows where the Amyrlin is. 

 

is this all part of the "crippled" Amyrlin? and bringing about the coup, of course

Compulsion makes no sense, the way she acted makes a lot of sense for this Amyrlin in this story, Rand has been off on his own doing next to nothing for months, he has been engaging directly with a forsaken, and shows no hint that he is actually accepting of his responsibility. People say Siuan is acting different to the books, no, if the same circumstance had happened in the books she would have done exactly the same thing. There are moments in the books she has doubts as to if she has done the right thing. 

The Coup will now come because it will become clear she knew, and she did not inform the tower until to late, it will come because the Black in the tower will claim Moiraine was allowed to escape that is why Siuan went on her own. 

[Scarloc99]

8 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

I really wish they'd stuck to this. Would have been more compelling IMO.

And it would have required much more screen time to show something that doesn't really matter to the story of how Rand gets to the last battle. You show them with the Amirylian at the viewing, you have to show the Amirylian being killed by Black Ajah, have to explain why the girls where left alone, have to then show them becoming aes sedai and making the pact, you have to waste 10-15/20 minutes extra telling all of that story for no benefit to the viewer whatsoever. People really don't get that all the fat has to be cut off the meat of the story to make a cohesive tv show that covers the main touchstones of the books. There is one story that matters, the story of how the main players get to the last battle, in the right place in terms of skill, emotions, character etc. Moiraine is not a main player in this, we know her role is going to diminish season to season, Siuan is not a main player in this, therefore the viewer only needs to know why they are looking for the dragon reborn, and why they are so connected to each other. The easiest way to do that, show them making plans to live a long and happy life together and then show them finding out something horrific that only they trust each other with. 

[Scarloc99]

7 hours ago, Chivalry said:

 

I definitely think this is the case, and that heightening the tension is one of the objectives. And I can see the benefit of weakening the young folk, so that they arrive at their strength through a process. 

 

Still, I felt the books established early on that Moiraine was special, even among Aes Sedai, and Lan was special, even among warders. Seeing them fail so often so early (or at least seeing them diminished, in the case of Moiraine) has been a bit of a letdown.

 

Part of this, of course, is personal taste. We're not all going to appreciate the same aspects of the books. I do think RJ "trained" the readers to expect certain hierarchies (for lack of a better word), and he was a stickler for certain things (like what could and could not be said about the One Power). This person is stronger than that one by this much, this person is taller than that one, this person is more capable in this way than that one. After so many pages, we get accustomed to this type of precision.

 

And the series does not seem at all attached to any of this sentiment. Does it matter? It might to some of us, but not everyone.

When the author has to keep adjusting his own power scale throughout the series I think you have a prime example of how he wrote book to book rather then having a clear multi book arc with all the lore etc all mapped out. He would create characters and then have to shoehorn them into his power scale before realising that he needed to add levels to the top because people where getting more and more powerful. 

The TV show at least has the benefit of knowing up front the limits and restrictions of what the characters will and wont be able to do and so can now plan an arc that clearly shows those powers being discovered. 

[Scarloc99]

7 hours ago, Chivalry said:

 

I definitely think this is the case, and that heightening the tension is one of the objectives. And I can see the benefit of weakening the young folk, so that they arrive at their strength through a process. 

 

Still, I felt the books established early on that Moiraine was special, even among Aes Sedai, and Lan was special, even among warders. Seeing them fail so often so early (or at least seeing them diminished, in the case of Moiraine) has been a bit of a letdown.

 

Part of this, of course, is personal taste. We're not all going to appreciate the same aspects of the books. I do think RJ "trained" the readers to expect certain hierarchies (for lack of a better word), and he was a stickler for certain things (like what could and could not be said about the One Power). This person is stronger than that one by this much, this person is taller than that one, this person is more capable in this way than that one. After so many pages, we get accustomed to this type of precision.

 

And the series does not seem at all attached to any of this sentiment. Does it matter? It might to some of us, but not everyone.

Moiraine and Lan in books 1 and 2 are the Gandalf and Arragorn equivalents, by book 3 RJ was trying to retcon Mpiraine so she was actually "just another Aes Sedai" yes in the upper ends of the power scale, but her lack of Tower exposure had left her weak in the political side of things and even her influence over Rand was stripped away by RJ in book 3. Moiraine of the start of the series is not the Moiraine RJ would have written had he known it was going to be a 14 book epic. I think it is also part of the reason he wrote Moiraine out, she had become a pointless character, to powerful and knowledgable to keep in, and probably boring to write for. SO he lets her go out in a blaze of glory and knows that if he decides to later on he can bring her back (I am not convinced at this point he was going to). 

[Scarloc99]

4 hours ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

Given that at this stage Elrond is over 6,000 years old and has spent the whole third age as effective king of the high elves in middle earth from his perspective 80 years is hardly significant and Aragorn is still just starting out (and in the films at least he has not been seeking to take up the burden of kingship).

But in the books Aragorn KNEW he was king, there was no reluctance about it, no feeling like he was not worthy, he was king, leader of the rangers and one day he was going to marry his elven princess. Elrond in the books was also far more grandfatherly and less of a D**K but that is just 2 of the dramatic changes to characters that Peter Jackson made that I personally still don't like, even if I can appreciate how good the adaptation was. 

 

[DaddyFinn]

Maksim doimg the Black Ajah hand symbol 🫣

 

[Scarloc99]

2 hours ago, Finnssss22 said:

Yeah me too as the dominoes that fall and the chain of events after this is basically how Siuan ends up being Amyrlin and Aviarin ending up as head of the Black Ajah.

After Tamra is killed by the Black, a hardass Grey becomes Amyrlin but within 5 years she pisses the Reds off so bad they have her killed. Seriously right lol

Then another fearsome woman becomes Amyrlin from the Blue I believe and she catches the Reds gentling men on the spot without trial or even informing the Tower they were doing it. These Reds are punished and 3 are even exiled from the Tower.

Then she after about 4 years, being almost 300 years old passes of natural causes.

Meanwhile the Black sister hunters kill all of Tamra's hunters, even lose a few themselves and are not only killing any child they find born close to when the Dragon was, they're also killing kids that are kinda close that exhibit any out of the ordinary good luck. 

This is when Ishamael makes his set every 1000 year appearance, he finds out that the head of the Black Ajah wasn't trying to just find the Dragon Reborn but is trying to kill him. He is furious, loses his sh!t and kills her where she stands which in turn is how Alviarin becomes the new head of the Black.

 

So now with all the killing along with the exiles, every sister that was strongest in the Power or held a lot of influence were gone leaving Moiraine, Siuan, Leane, Sheriam and Elaida as the strongest in the One Power Aes Sedai left outside of Cadsuane who most of the Tower thought was passed by now anyway.

That paved the way for Siuan to become Amyrlin, Leane her Keeper and Sheriam as Mistress of the Novices while Moiraine was free to search for the Dragon Reborn. Elaida took off to Caemlyn because of her own Foretelling as an Accepted about the Lion Throne being the key to the Last Battle or something like that (this actually had to do with Rand's mother Tigraine not the current line so tough luck b!tch lol). It also helped that she was one of the Reds that was punished but not exiled for Gentling men illegally and getting out of the Tower for a bit sounded like a good idea lol

 

At the same time, all this said, I don't think there was any way they were getting all this into the TV show. Hell we all had to dig and dig just to figure it all out from the books. Most of this was not surface information that you're putting together in just one read through lol

Hopefully we get a little of it though, even if it's just some Easter Eggs. That would be cool.

The story is good, but really is 2-3 episodes all on its own and ultimatley is not important to the story of how the EF5 get to the last battle having gained all there powerups and abilities. Peter Jackson identifed the important thing with a story like this, start at the end and work backwards identifying only the plot points that matter to get to that end moment. Then sketch out your movie, and, as you do see if there are other bits you can add in that the fans will love. 

Now he had it far easier because LOTR is a largely linear tale with a very clear set of scenes that easily run one to the next. WOT was always going to be far harder to trim, and, all those bits that needed to be trimmed most of them hd a lesson or a point that would always ned to be represented in a different way (Perrins Fridging, as much as I wasn't a fan, in one second of action you cover off about 20 chapters worth of initial character build up). 

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

Is there not also an issue with the timeline? In the show, Siuan and Moiraine are 70, 80 or so. In the books they were just about to be raised to the shawl at the end of the Aiel War. So even the cold opening is a bit dodgy, try to flesh it out more and you just make it painfully obvious the disparate chronology, or you would need to re-write the whole thing and would it not slightly defeat the purpose then of keeping the same story line?

 

Or is this yet another thing I have misunderstood from the show 😄 

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

36 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

The easiest way to do that, show them making plans to live a long and happy life together and then show them finding out something horrific that only they trust each other with

I think this is why siuan appearing to distrust moiraine was such an impactful shift, allowing moiraine to leave her behind. Unless they’re still playing the long con and are both on board with the role they need to play 

[Ralph]

1 hour ago, Scarloc99 said:

Compulsion makes no sense, the way she acted makes a lot of sense for this Amyrlin in this story, Rand has been off on his own doing next to nothing for months, he has been engaging directly with a forsaken, and shows no hint that he is actually accepting of his responsibility. People say Siuan is acting different to the books, no, if the same circumstance had happened in the books she would have done exactly the same thing. There are moments in the books she has doubts as to if she has done the right thing. 

The Coup will now come because it will become clear she knew, and she did not inform the tower until to late, it will come because the Black in the tower will claim Moiraine was allowed to escape that is why Siuan went on her own. 

agree with everything you and others have said

 

but still curious what Liandrin meant when she said do you even know where the Amyrlin is

[Meskell]

On 10/2/2023 at 4:06 AM, Guire said:

Its being pretty nit picky but the show just got the green fields and spring dress by Siuan and Moraine wrong.  I assume because they wanted a light mood while they flirted.

 

Aiel war ended in winter.  Rand was born in roughly December.  Tar Valon is fairly far north in Westlands.  Sure there may not be snow in lowlands but that grass would be almost all brown.  At top of White Tower it would be quite chilly even on a sunny day.  In New Spring Lan's last battle before Aiel withdrew it was very cold.  When Mo and Siuan went out to collect birth info it was very cold.  Not a big deal but an error.

Probably already been said but:

 

- Aes Sedai maintain the grass around the Tower and in the city via the One Power. 
- Aes Sedai ignore/don’t feel the cold so don’t need to be wrapped up if they don’t want to. 

[DojoToad]

9 hours ago, DreadLord31 said:

yes, yes. I agree. Moiraine is too tall. 😉

And Loial is too short...

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

2 hours ago, DojoToad said:

11 hours ago, DreadLord31 said:

yes, yes. I agree. Moiraine is too tall. 😉

And Loial is too short...

They must have gotten the casting mixed up, Rosamund Pike was meant to be Loial all along.