WoT Season 2 Episode 7: Daes Dae'Mar

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

38 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

think they have also decided that a talent is not linked to the ability to channel

Not linked to the current ability to channel, but can those without initially having the inherent ability to channel have a Talent? It seems so, considering Perrin and min and mat (at least in the books) but I think non channelers with “supernatural” abilities aren’t referred to as Talents?

[DreadLord31]

5 hours ago, Chivalry said:

At least two references in Episode 7 to the Dragon Reborn fulfilling prophecy in the skies above Falme, but do casual viewers have any idea what is being quoted? Or why? Does having two Aes Sedai say the same thing a few minutes apart make it better? This could have been better handled by just displaying the text from the Karaethon Cycle at the opening of the episode without comment. Seriously, my dudes, show me, don't tell me. Or at least don't keep telling me.

You clearly didn’t read my earlier comment, but that’s understandable, there’s multiple convos that go past each other & it’s very WoT to skip stuff you’re not interested in to go to the good parts. Looks like the Tv show will be the same way! 
 

Back in episode 2 Verin said, I will go to the Tower and find books there that might prove useful. Prophecies that speak of a battle on Toman Head, a sword of fire, and the branded hand that wields it. 
 

A similar comment was made again - that the Dragon would be proclaimed at Toman Head by a battle in the sky. 
 

And then twice this episode, once by Verin and once by Moiraine. So… if casual viewers (or yourself) paid close attention to the show, it’s not random. 
 

But I noted that they quadrupled down on a battle in the sky in fire. So they better deliver and have it not be as cheesy and bad as the S1 Tarwins Gap debacle. 

[Vartija]

I agree with @Chivalry regarding the earning angle.

 

We are heading into the finale where I hope Rand has a big moment, but I can't help feeling they haven't done a good enough job with making the viewer feel he has earned that moment. His sword training has been all off screen and is based on the teachings of a mad former blademaster. In this episode it was made painfully obvious he hasn't learned channeling either. That's two aspects of his TGH finale that have been poorly developed imo. It's why I think E7 did him such a disservice. If he does something with the Power in the finale it's fair to ask how he was able to do it with so little knowledge of the OP. 

 

The more I think about Rand's arc in this season the more frustrated I feel. It feels like he's been spinning on his wheels the entire season. Twice he tried to approach Logain to learn how to channel but neither occasion lead to anything useful. Neither has he taken his first steps as a leader of men like in the books. Twice he had to be saved by others, going as far as asking help from a Forsaken, which ironically enough lead to the distruction of the place and people he had lived with for months. Even his much expected meeting with Siuan ended up being more about Siuan and Moiraine than about him. 

 

It feels like the show should have done more to show at least some growth of character and ability this season. Siuan was kind of right to berate him for not learning, but I feel like I could throw that same accusation at the writers. We are 15 episodes into the series and Rand feels like a complete passanger in his own story.   

[fra85uk]

I agree with much of the criticism on Rand's arc but again this stems from the choice of not directly having him as a main character for two seasons.

Honestly, I feel like that they will never switch to him being main character even in future (how many at this point? I am not betting for cancellation but neither on 8 full seasons) and they'll keep other characters' POV even when he will become the leader of the Light he is meant to be (I imagine but who can say that? Frankly i would not be surprised if the Elaida plan of having him on a leash in the White Tower until the last battle this time works) . 

I imagine that they will keep him as a more "distant" figure of power and still focus on the more developed supporting cast.

[fra85uk]

2 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

I agree with much of the criticism on Rand's arc but again this stems from the choice of not directly having him as a main character for two seasons.

Honestly, I feel like that they will never switch to him being main character even in future (how many at this point? I am not betting for cancellation but neither on 8 full seasons) and they'll keep other characters' POV even when he will become the leader of the Light he is meant to be (I imagine but who can say that? Frankly i would not be surprised if the Elaida plan of having him on a leash in the White Tower until the last battle this time works) . 

I imagine that they will keep him as a more "distant" figure of power and still focus on the more developed supporting cast

(which by the way would not be far from some parts of later books but would feel a little bit diminished without having Rand's arc first).

 

P.s. sorry for double post

Edited October 2, 2023 by fra85uk

[TaisharPhilly]

It's been a few years since I read the books (I was reading them before RJ died but I never finished, and then did a full reread that took me from 2019-22), but it seems like they're reordering some of the things from the books but also cutting some things put like the Alfinn/Aelfinn that might be a couple layers of lore too deep for TV.

 

There's some things I'm disappointed in, like Mat (who is my favorite book character, being turned into a jerk if not a pawn of the dark one), but I think they're doing a pretty good job of staying close-ish to the books but cutting some detail.  At some point, though, it seems like they have to pick up the pace and do more than 1 book per season, although it also seems like there might be fewer Forsaken.

[Guire]

3 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

In the recent interviews this was clarified that certain channelers (not all) can detect the ability to channel in others as an innate talent, The Damane that points at people is one, Logain is another. They cant see the weaves or what is being chnneled by someone of the opposite sex but they do see that channeling is happening, and how much, by seeing a bright white glow that increases in intensity based on the power levels involved. 

 

The problem with this is Logain saw the tied shield on Moraine even though he is stilled.

[Gary Again]

I agree about the earned aspect and the compounding of it, having Rand who hasn't established himself as a sword fighter (the fade disarmed him in seconds) or channeler and fighting Turak and Ishy is just too much. I think they will have Lan fight Turak, it may start out with Rand but he will quickly find out he is overmatched and Lan will tell him he needs to fight Ishy because nobody else can or something like that. Honestly I'm ok with this one because Rand taking out Turak in the books seemed way too soon and I almost think RJ retconned it a bit with Be'lal showing that Rand still wasn't close to a blade master yet. It was just too early in the series but I think this had to do with the series just constantly expanding, if it was a trilogy that probably was the right time for Rand to become a blade master but once it became a 9-12 book series it was way too early. 

 

I think Ingtar's is tough and I will put this one in spoilers because it gets pretty specific:

 

Spoiler

His redemption is a tough one more because I don't think they have done a good job setting up what he is trying to redeem himself from. They can shoe horn it into the episode but that comes off kind of cheesy if it isn't established. I feel like they should have had him make some questionable decisions during the hunt of the horn that they can call back to and I think they did a couple but they weren't really major enough to stand out just him deciding to rest instead of keep going so I don't think those will have a lot of impact.

 

One way I could see it working really well is if the beginning shows Fal Dara and Ingtar being the one to open the gate so from the beginning of the episode you think he is going to turn on everyone and is a complete POS, but at the last moment he sacrifices his life and is the reason that Egwene is able to escape. I think this would land really well in a fairly short amount of run time and they already established that someone opened the gates and this was significant enough to be something he is trying to make up for.

 

I agree though these are two big problems and also just run time I hope they have an hour and a half episode or something like that otherwise I worry it's just going to be too much going on at a breakneck speed for a lot of it to land or have impact.

Edited October 2, 2023 by Gary Again

[Elder_Haman]

Or… what if Ingtar sticks around and takes over the Agelmar role?

[Windigo]

On 10/1/2023 at 2:54 AM, Chivalry said:

So...Mat is no longer the son of battles, he's just a recalcitrant cutthroat and thief (in all those other lives)? Please tell me that's just a trick...

Rand doesn't mind that Lanfear butchered half the Foregate to help him?

Ingtar? Is he even part of the story? Nope, let's spend more time with Alanna's warders, they seem cool.

First Uno, now Jolien?

 

This episode hurts. 

Yes they have given Mat a different background and story arc, and I do not agree with all of it, but it would have been very difficult to show the reluctant hero without internal monologue. Besides Mat was not much of a character in first 2 books, everything people keep complaining is missing did not happen until after events from midway in book 3 and later.
 

Spoiler

The real miss in his story so far is not having the big cleansing from the Dagger, his recollection of Aemon (Probably a true past life?) and having him spouting the old tongue before the doorways, to set up the later plots. 
This may have been because of casting changes though? 


Mat was not named the son of battles until TSR, and then it was nothing but a foretelling until after he gets his wishes in Rhuidean.  
Never is it stated that the memories Mat gets are from his past lives. 

 

[Cipher]

10 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

Really. 

It's not difficult for characters to use the privy or have breakfast. It's not difficult for liandrin, inside a secret passage and possibly with dozens of accomplices, to sneak unconscious people around. In the relevant thread, people have given a half dozen possible suggestions.

You, instead, keep evading my questions. I think you are arguing in bad faith, and has been for a while

Are you saying I am arguing in bad faith?  I challenge you to point to the post I have not responded to your challenge that was a total rebuff to my original statement. What questions of yours have I avoided?

It seemed to me you were asking how are they going to dress the captured Sul’dam.

 

I think some details are unimportant (like dressing the sul’dam—see below) while others are important details, but are completely ignored because of bad writing.

 

Liandrin getting 3 unconscious girls to the Waygate is actually difficult depending on where that Waygate is.  Half dozen accomplices?….Total fan fiction.  Jordan’s writing of this scene is far better than what we got in the show. The whole knock the people out and bippity boppity booing them to the desired location is absolutely lazy, sloppy, bad writing. It would take writers a few thoughts to come up with something better, but I believe the writers wanted a “tune in next week to see what happens,” moment, regardless of the consequences.

 

Privy and breakfast are unimportant details we all take for granted and every person can do those without question.

 

Now the show a’dam is poorly designed because some moron in art direction for the show thought it looked cool without regard for story.  But there could be a device with wires or cord that could be threaded through the collar to be used to pull a dress up.  Now the wonder girls are not going to have access to that device. Do they have a damane dress to put on the sul’dam? But the writers don’t care about such details and will just ignore it.

 

 

Edited October 2, 2023 by Cipher

[Chivalry]

4 hours ago, DreadLord31 said:

You clearly didn’t read my earlier comment, but that’s understandable, there’s multiple convos that go past each other & it’s very WoT to skip stuff you’re not interested in to go to the good parts. Looks like the Tv show will be the same way! 

 

Touche!

[Windigo]

1 hour ago, Elder_Haman said:

Or… what if Ingtar sticks around and takes over the Agelmar role?

I like this idea. 

[Elder_Haman]

2 minutes ago, Cipher said:

Do they have a damane dress to put on the sul’dam?

Why would they need one? They can just pretend she was newly captured. 

[Chivalry]

5 hours ago, DreadLord31 said:

A similar comment was made again - that the Dragon would be proclaimed at Toman Head by a battle in the sky. 
 

And then twice this episode, once by Verin and once by Moiraine. So… if casual viewers (or yourself) paid close attention to the show, it’s not random. 
 

But I noted that they quadrupled down on a battle in the sky in fire. So they better deliver and have it not be as cheesy and bad as the S1 Tarwins Gap debacle. 

I do recall at least one of the prior mentions, but that's my point - too many references but no clear explanation of why it matters. If they are going to provide some exposition, perhaps a brief explanation of the Karaethon Cycles would help, even if just a screen quote at the beginning of an episode, or a flashback scene of young Moiraine (or Verin) encountering or puzzling over the meaning of this particular prophecy.  Better yet, let's have Sherlock Lan discover the prophecy all by himself. 

[Elder_Haman]

16 minutes ago, Chivalry said:

too many references but no clear explanation of why it matters.

We know exactly why it matters - because the Forsaken want Rand in Falme. It’s not the prophecy itself that is important, it’s what the prophecy means in practical terms. 
 

[Jaysen Gore]

33 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

We know exactly why it matters - because the Forsaken want Rand in Falme. It’s not the prophecy itself that is important, it’s what the prophecy means in practical terms. 
 

yep. I'd go further...when your villains are capable of knocking your heroes out with impunity, opening a little hole in the world, and putting their unconscious body somewhere, we know that's because that's where the villains want them to be. We don't need to know the motive to know it's not good for our heroes

[DaddyFinn]

I wonder, and I'm not alone with this idea, that maybe the show tries to avoid "power creep" in early seasons. Show our characters struggle some more and slowly take on their supposed roles as leaders, soldiers, kings etc. S3/S4 they might be set in their roles 

 

In other words: keep the tension and danger throughout the series so it doesn't feel like a walk in the park like the books did so often.

 

Editedit. That doesn't mean our heroes shouldn't get wins and cool moments when they are due

Edited October 2, 2023 by DaddyFinn

[Gardenwood]

y’all asked for it. Just some AI generated lolz of Maksim fighting the last battle 😝
 

[CaddySedai]

I see an eyeless. 

[Guire]

1 hour ago, Gardenwood said:

y’all asked for it. Just some AI generated lolz of Maksim fighting the last battle 😝
 

The moment before Maksim launches into his devastating sword form combo. Serves the Persimmon, Dog hunches Decorative Pillow, then Punts the Kittens.

[Mirefox]

Why did Lanfear use the ways at the end of the episode?  We know she can travel and we know she is familiar with Tear…

[Elder_Haman]

11 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

Why did Lanfear use the ways at the end of the episode?  We know she can travel and we know she is familiar with Tear…

Cause she’s not ready to let Moiraine (or anyone else) know about traveling. 

[Guire]

1 hour ago, Elder_Haman said:

Cause she’s not ready to let Moiraine (or anyone else) know about traveling. 

that was how i saw it also.

[Elder_Haman]

4 minutes ago, Guire said:

that was how i saw it also.

She even said as much to Mat. “It’s my little secret.”