WoT Season 2 Episode 4: Daughter of the Night

[MarcusM]

10 hours ago, Samt said:

I'm also coming to the conclusion that it's just not worth it anymore to worry about the changes from the book.  This isn't that story.  It's not useful to try to understand them in each other's context.  

 

Your two concerns quoted above are my exact questions.  

 

Every scene with the warders or Aes Sedai discussing the implications of the bond serves only the confuse me more.  And nobody really seems to be confused, just worred about Lan.  Is Lan still bonded to Moiraine and the bond is just inactive?  Do the characters themselves not know?  Is Lan's state presently distinguishable from the state that led to Stepin's suicide?  If Lan is effectively unbonded, what does it mean for Alanna to forcibly take his bond?  Would that be distinct from Alanna just forcibly bonding an unbonded person?  

 

And in regards to Lanfear regenerating?, a big point of the forsaken is that they are ultimately regular mortals in mortal bodies once you get past all the crazy things they can do with the one power.  But leaving the book lore aside, it also raises serious questions for the show.  We're going to need some serious explanations as to how shrugging off impalement and throat slitting is not universe breaking.  Can anyone do it?  What are the limits?  If you don't have good and consistent answers for these questions, you are going to undercut a lot of tension in the show.  I question whether the creators really learned anything from the problems that superhealing created, if they are just repeating the same thing.  

 

 

 

Finally among likeminded here on DM yet again. This episode made me really worried, again for the first time after E.108. (which was a huge disappointment to me)

 

Moi/Lan bond:

 

Logically she is shielded and he still bonded:

1. since Lan's not really in agony and going berserk, he should still be bonded and the bond should be masked.

2. Did Moi almost channel when that fade came in an earlier Episode? May have been Verin?

3. While Moi seems to be missing the OP she is really capable and not the total crying mess she should've been had she been cut off from the source.

4. We know from the books that it's possible to make complex and tied off shields that would be next to impossible to break through.

 

The other option (i.e. TV-show compression) - she is stilled and he unbounded

1. Moi's really cut off from the source as this event in reality replaces Leanne / Siuan stilling.

2. She will still push Lanfear through the 'finn dooorway. She doesn't really need the OP for that purpose anyways.

3. Balefire will be introduced by someone else.

4. She won't BF hellhounds, nor Be'lal. (which 5 Forsaken aren't we seeing? Asmo, Semirhage, Aginor and Demandred?)

5. Nyn will heal her eventually.

6. The entire Salidar plot line will be cut out / or at least minimized.

 

My bet is on option 2. And they effectively and sadly destroyed part of the lore.

 

Lanfear regenerating

I think this is more of Vampire-ism than Zombie logic. Not an expert of Zoombies however, but I have seen my fair share of vampire-series and they are full of this stuff. IMHO these type of moves destroys the novelty of the Randland (in this case DO-LOTG) mechanisms and the WOT-series becomes just another fantasy/undead Hollywood-series.

 

When they played this move I instantly shut my computer and screamed "Nooo, wtf *Å/&%€%". Honestly I hated it. Had to re-see the entire Episode and address it with logic rather than emotions...

Here it goes:

1. They don't give a crap of how the channeling logic is set up, beyond the basics. This we know from S1.

2. They gave Nyn the ability to nova mass-heal from a distance.

3. They must now make the Forsaken more bad-ass.

4. So they level up and make them truly immortals with regeneration abilities.

5. It's super practical from a casting POV.

6. As audience we now truly understand the statement " you have no conception of the power they wield".

7. Giving the Forsaken this power is a much simpler and time efficient move to demonstrate their power by proving all sorts of channeling tricks they make in the books. Simple time compression logic.

 

And how will Moi and Rand get away from an angry? surprised Lanfear?

 

Well, logically. She could play dead. Or as her ultimate aim is still to continue seducing Rand, she could very well not commence the hunt and reappear later (in the waste perhaps?). This would conveniently push Moi away from Rand as he would still continue have his feelings for Selene and it's Moi's fault that she is dead... or she could be halted by Ishamael? Or she would need time to regain strength from regenerating. Or they would just fix it with a change of scenes and we will never know what happened.

 

Any or all reasons would work...

 

Bah, emotion beats logic every time.

Back to lurking

[VooDooNut]

1 hour ago, MarcusM said:

And how will Moi and Rand get away from an angry? surprised Lanfear?

 

Well, logically. She could play dead. Or as her ultimate aim is still to continue seducing Rand, she could very well not commence the hunt and reappear later (in the waste perhaps?). This would conveniently push Moi away from Rand as he would still continue have his feelings for Selene and it's Moi's fault that she is dead... or she could be halted by Ishamael? Or she would need time to regain strength from regenerating. Or they would just fix it with a change of scenes and we will never know what happened.

 

Any or all reasons would work...

 

Bah, emotion beats logic every time.

Back to lurking

This is why I believe Lanfear wouldn't go chasing after them. She likes to play a more subtle game as long as she thinks she's in control/has an advantage.

[Vartija]

I struggled with this episode.

 

Lan's storyline just feels so boring at this point. It feels like a rehash of the Stepin story arc with added confusion about what's the nature of his bond to Moiraine. Are we supposed to be entertained by that mystery? I just don't buy into the show's story of Lan and Moiraine suddenly being unable to communicate or work together for whatever reason. Lan should see right through Moiraine's reasoning to push him away like this. This storyline only works by making Lan act stupid. It all feels so convoluted and a waste of time. The part with Maxim looking through Lan's stuff also felt a bit soap operaish. The warders in general feel like just a bunch of random guys instead of the hyper alert super bodyguards they were in the books. I don't understand this infatuation with the warders' relationships with their AS or each other and the bond.

 

Tower stuff was mostly ok, though I don't know if we needed so much time dissecting the Three Arches experience. I still struggle with Liandrin's expanded role. Half the time she just comes off ridiculously villainy which makes you wonder how the rest of the Aes Sedai put up with her (this started already in Season 1). Like openly threatening Leane in this episode.   

 

The Anvaere-Moiraine stuff was pretty good. 

 

The wolf visions might work quite well. I always knew it was going to be difficult to show Perrin's wolf stuff on screen but these "sendings" actually have some potential. For one it eliminates the need to have wolves around all the time and still make use of Perrin's powers - the wolves just send the images to warn Perrin or inform him of events. Kind of like the Shadowkiller sendings in TGH. I'm still not enamoured with Elyas's portrayal but at least Perrin's arc is finally moving forward. 

 

Not a big fan of dragging Min to Ishamael's plots. I'd be just fine with a good character who isn't been manipulated or background changed to something darker than the books (like Mat).

 

Really surprised by what they did with Selene. I thought they'd keep her real identity a secret at least from Rand until the end of the season if not next season. I thought they were going to milk the relationship so that the scene at the docks and Rand's reluctance to harm her would feel much more belieavable. Now that's out the window. Anyway, not a big fan of how they executed (no pun intended) that scene. How did Moiraine know she was actually Lanfear and not some random person? How did she sneak into the room without either noticing anything especially without her channelling abilities? How did she know she couldn't be killed? What's her plan next if she knew she didn't just kill her and is obviously seeking revenge? Also it just looked way too familiar with both Dana's death and Moiraine's "death" in the Blight in season 1.      

 

This episode had some weird editing and directing choices as well. There's a double take of Egwene reacting similarily just seconds apart when talking to Nynaeve. Lan's hair looks weird and Lan taking a piss was just a weird writing/directing choice - I actually loled when I saw the teaser for that scene. The bad editing makes it look amateurish and like the production just doesn't care enough to fix those things. 

 

I don't know, the episode just left me feeling sour. Like it dragged me back to the wrong side of "even if different I can still enjoy it". I couldn't hide being both bored (Lan) and too confused (Min, Selene) about stuff to really enjoy it. I got the uncomfortable feeling that I wouldn't continue with the show if I didn't love the source material.  

[nsmallw]

3 hours ago, Rhand said:

Also a bit put off by Alanna and the warders going through Lan's personal things where they found the prophecy.

Yes! So grateful someone else noticed this and agrees. I felt the same.

[MarcusM]

15 minutes ago, Vartija said:

I struggled with this episode.

 

Lan's storyline just feels so boring at this point. It feels like a rehash of the Stepin story arc with added confusion about what's the nature of his bond to Moiraine. Are we supposed to be entertained by that mystery? I just don't buy into the show's story of Lan and Moiraine suddenly being unable to communicate or work together for whatever reason. Lan should see right through Moiraine's reasoning to push him away like this. This storyline only works by making Lan act stupid. It all feels so convoluted and a waste of time. The part with Maxim looking through Lan's stuff also felt a bit soap operaish. The warders in general feel like just a bunch of random guys instead of the hyper alert super bodyguards they were in the books. I don't understand this infatuation with the warders' relationships with their AS or each other and the bond.

 

Tower stuff was mostly ok, though I don't know if we needed so much time dissecting the Three Arches experience. I still struggle with Liandrin's expanded role. Half the time she just comes off ridiculously villainy which makes you wonder how the rest of the Aes Sedai put up with her (this started already in Season 1). Like openly threatening Leane in this episode.   

 

The Anvaere-Moiraine stuff was pretty good. 

 

The wolf visions might work quite well. I always knew it was going to be difficult to show Perrin's wolf stuff on screen but these "sendings" actually have some potential. For one it eliminates the need to have wolves around all the time and still make use of Perrin's powers - the wolves just send the images to warn Perrin or inform him of events. Kind of like the Shadowkiller sendings in TGH. I'm still not enamoured with Elyas's portrayal but at least Perrin's arc is finally moving forward. 

 

Not a big fan of dragging Min to Ishamael's plots. I'd be just fine with a good character who isn't been manipulated or background changed to something darker than the books (like Mat).

 

Really surprised by what they did with Selene. I thought they'd keep her real identity a secret at least from Rand until the end of the season if not next season. I thought they were going to milk the relationship so that the scene at the docks and Rand's reluctance to harm her would feel much more belieavable. Now that's out the window. Anyway, not a big fan of how they executed (no pun intended) that scene. How did Moiraine know she was actually Lanfear and not some random person? How did she sneak into the room without either noticing anything especially without her channelling abilities? How did she know she couldn't be killed? What's her plan next if she knew she didn't just kill her and is obviously seeking revenge? Also it just looked way too familiar with both Dana's death and Moiraine's "death" in the Blight in season 1.      

 

This episode had some weird editing and directing choices as well. There's a double take of Egwene reacting similarily just seconds apart when talking to Nynaeve. Lan's hair looks weird and Lan taking a piss was just a weird writing/directing choice - I actually loled when I saw the teaser for that scene. The bad editing makes it look amateurish and like the production just doesn't care enough to fix those things. 

 

I don't know, the episode just left me feeling sour. Like it dragged me back to the wrong side of "even if different I can still enjoy it". I couldn't hide being both bored (Lan) and too confused (Min, Selene) about stuff to really enjoy it. I got the uncomfortable feeling that I wouldn't continue with the show if I didn't love the source material.  

 

Thank you putting words to very much how I feel too! But to seriously stop watching? Nah, that won't happen as long as it has some WOT resemblance. I am mostly concerned that they would cancel the show prematurely, despite Amz promises, unless quality is more consistent and a bit higher. As of now it feels a touch n'go for that kind of decision.

 

 

 

[Gary Again]

Hopper! I was surprised how much that hit me but I thought they did a great job with the wolf power and actually made a beautiful moment to introduce Hopper and for all the grief they get for not following the book that just felt like a moment where the book description was brought to life. Also glad that they didn't go the CGI route with the wolves just because dogs can naturally be so expressive like the dog looked legitimately sad when Elyas said he lost his mate and you lose all of that with CGI or it's done in an over the top cheesy way.

 

Also I like how they are doing Elyas because he is acting like a wolf more than a human so he just doesn't really do small talk, he isn't too concerned about making Perrin comfortable either physically or emotionally but he's there to help and support a member of the pack. Doesn't even really care about anyone that came with Perrin because they aren't part of the pack. He's really growing on me as they go and I liked how he smiled when Hopper told Perrin his name it isn't that he's emotionless he just legitimately doesn't really GAF about any of the things that everyone else does. Also like how he's just kind of instantly ride or die with Perrin taking on the Seanchan and tearing someone's throat. That's kind of how the wolves are too in the books so I like that it doesn't take time to develop they are just there for him. We come.

 

Lanfear has absolutely nailed it and this is a role I didn't see anyone doing well, I would have been happy if we got a decent Lanfear but she is knocking it out of the park and like all of it. That whole scene with her making Rand jealous of himself and him just destroying her heart with a single comment cut so deep to the books it just worked in a lot of ways and she just nailed that as an actress. RJ had a lot of book moments where women wanted to just straight up strangle a man or thump them with a stick and she nailed it. Really liked the ending too, maybe the most epic cock block of all time and just the throat slit and then Rand is just covered in blood lol. Poor Rand is going to have trauma from this, he's going to be more worried about Moiraine jumping out of the shadows than a fade (that scene was beautiful how the fade stepped out). I also think the change to forsaken dying makes a lot of sense and I think is an improvement over book mechanics for a show, I don't want them having to recast people when they did such an amazing job casting them in the first place. 

 

Have to take a moment to say how big of a moment this is from Moiraine she just goes out there knowing that one of the most powerful people that has ever walked the planet will absolutely hate her with the hate of a thousand suns and is effectively immortal and Moiraine can't channel: Moiraine tells Lan to stay at home and goes slits that b!tches throat lmfao. Also it's cool that it looks like Moiraine is just struggling with things but she finds the perfect inflection point and way to change the arc of what is happening which is a total Moiraine thing to do because she is 100% about the mission. I also really like seeing her as part of the Cairhen plot and her sister has been amazing too. Her knowing exactly how to get to Logain was a nice touch and when she was talking about it you realize that she's going through the same thing is powerful. My guess is the nephew is Barthames who is going to be similar to the book character but go on to become king and then I think the Thom plot would probably be on in a later season but we'll see.

 

Liandrin's connection with Nynaeve is great I really liked the scene with her and Nynaeve, I liked the comment about Aes Sedai never setting foot in that room and liked how they had that moment of genuine connection. It adds so much to both of their stories and both of these actresses are doing a great job with their characters so it works well. Lan is taking time to go through things but I think it's fine his book character went through his whole death phase which I think the show is doing but I like how they are all trying to help get him through this. I think this is building up to a moment where everyone thinks she considers herself more important than Lan when she feels the opposite is true so I think this was important and I liked the meditation moment. Alanna interrupting Lan was setting things up well how she doesn't respect boundaries. While there wasn't a lot of payoff with what Lan was doing I think it was more setting things up.

 

Excited to see Avi next week and I loved the line but man I do wish they kept the cage scene for Gaul. I get that they may cast him later so they don't keep actors around for limited roles but the cage part was always why I thought Gaul was so ride or die for Perrin so if they weren't going to introduce Gaul I wish they held off on the cage part. Avi also had a great introduction in the books with the maidens surrounding the fade and banging on their shields so I would just do that scene but with Perrin instead of the wonder girls. Also the cage scene led to some of my favorite lines from Faile when she was teasing Perrin about it so I would just save the cage scene until next season but oh well hopefully they do a great job with it.

[king of nowhere]

1 hour ago, Vartija said:

 

 

How did she sneak into the room without either noticing anything especially without her channelling abilities?

 

I agree on most of your points, but this one can be answered easily: both rand and lanfear were understandably very distracted at the moment.

 

Anyway, channeling would have alerted lanfear. Moiraine had better chances without the power

[Rhand]

32 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

I agree on most of your points, but this one can be answered easily: both rand and lanfear were understandably very distracted at the moment.

 

Anyway, channeling would have alerted lanfear. Moiraine had better chances without the power

 

You would think after almost being killed by a Myrddraal, Rand would've been a bit more attentive. Lanfear on top of that is not really a lovesick girl finally getting who she wants, she's an evil supervilain who carefully orchestrated the whole situation.

 

I agree it's an easy answer, but to me, keeping in mind their characters, it's not a very sensical one.

[Skipp]

1 hour ago, Gary Again said:

Hopper! I was surprised how much that hit me but I thought they did a great job with the wolf power and actually made a beautiful moment to introduce Hopper and for all the grief they get for not following the book that just felt like a moment where the book description was brought to life. Also glad that they didn't go the CGI route with the wolves just because dogs can naturally be so expressive like the dog looked legitimately sad when Elyas said he lost his mate and you lose all of that with CGI or it's done in an over the top cheesy way.

 

Also I like how they are doing Elyas because he is acting like a wolf more than a human so he just doesn't really do small talk, he isn't too concerned about making Perrin comfortable either physically or emotionally but he's there to help and support a member of the pack. Doesn't even really care about anyone that came with Perrin because they aren't part of the pack. He's really growing on me as they go and I liked how he smiled when Hopper told Perrin his name it isn't that he's emotionless he just legitimately doesn't really GAF about any of the things that everyone else does. Also like how he's just kind of instantly ride or die with Perrin taking on the Seanchan and tearing someone's throat. That's kind of how the wolves are too in the books so I like that it doesn't take time to develop they are just there for him. We come.

 

Lanfear has absolutely nailed it and this is a role I didn't see anyone doing well, I would have been happy if we got a decent Lanfear but she is knocking it out of the park and like all of it. That whole scene with her making Rand jealous of himself and him just destroying her heart with a single comment cut so deep to the books it just worked in a lot of ways and she just nailed that as an actress. RJ had a lot of book moments where women wanted to just straight up strangle a man or thump them with a stick and she nailed it. Really liked the ending too, maybe the most epic cock block of all time and just the throat slit and then Rand is just covered in blood lol. Poor Rand is going to have trauma from this, he's going to be more worried about Moiraine jumping out of the shadows than a fade (that scene was beautiful how the fade stepped out). I also think the change to forsaken dying makes a lot of sense and I think is an improvement over book mechanics for a show, I don't want them having to recast people when they did such an amazing job casting them in the first place. 

 

 

Absolutely agree on these points.  The amount of joy on my face during the Hopper scene mirrored the Joy on Perrins face.  That was just such a special moment.

[Windigo]

6 hours ago, MarcusM said:

7. Giving the Forsaken this power is a much simpler and time efficient move to demonstrate their power by proving all sorts of channeling tricks they make in the books. Simple time compression logic.

It does save screen time where in the books they have the whole re-birth/new bodies kind of saved by the dark one thing. 
It also makes the point fairly clearly in one scene that the Forsaken are badass evil that are hard to kill. 

 

 

 

Edited September 9, 2023 by Windigo

[Samt]

49 minutes ago, Windigo said:

It does save screen time where in the books they have the whole re-birth/new bodies kind of saved by the dark one thing. 
It also makes the point fairly clearly in one scene that the Forsaken are badass evil that are hard to kill. 

 

 

 

It saves time, but also raises questions.  Is Balefire the only answer?  Why only the forsaken?  Is it unlimited?  Maybe we'll get answers to these questions, but I'm not sure if they'll be convincing.  In the books, the dark one still needs to steal new bodies and it takes some time and presumably resources.  In the show, it seems that it can happen instantly, anywhere, and without any significant cost.  That is a huge change in the power of the dark one and forsaken and just raises questions as to how they ever lost in the first place.  

[Samt]

5 hours ago, Vartija said:

I struggled with this episode.

 

Lan's storyline just feels so boring at this point. It feels like a rehash of the Stepin story arc with added confusion about what's the nature of his bond to Moiraine. Are we supposed to be entertained by that mystery? I just don't buy into the show's story of Lan and Moiraine suddenly being unable to communicate or work together for whatever reason. Lan should see right through Moiraine's reasoning to push him away like this. This storyline only works by making Lan act stupid. It all feels so convoluted and a waste of time. The part with Maxim looking through Lan's stuff also felt a bit soap operaish. The warders in general feel like just a bunch of random guys instead of the hyper alert super bodyguards they were in the books. I don't understand this infatuation with the warders' relationships with their AS or each other and the bond.

 

There is a "law" of government systems called the iron law of oligarchy that proposes that all governments, no matter how they start, eventually become oligarchies over time.  I have proposed a similar law for TV shows: the iron law of soap opera.  No matter the genre or starting point, all shows will eventually become soap operas if the creators keep making episodes for long enough.  The basic reason for this is that once the creators run out of interesting story lines (but the powers that be won't let the show end), they can always just manufacture personal or relationship drama for the characters and keep making episodes.   

 

The warder arc never actually had a storyline, so it is already a soap opera.  And that's pretty sad.  For all of the complaining about needing to cut so much from the books in order to fit it into a show, we are watching an Aes Sedai/warder soap opera to fill screen time (or keep the characters occupied).  

 

 

[A Memory Of Why]

Serious question, did Lanfear actually die?

 

Now I'm no marine biologist but would those wounds kill you straight away?

 

Genually curious.

 

Yeah, it looks like she died but I wouldn't be surprised if she was playing possum to see what Rand does. For a hot second it sounded like he was going to avenge her.

[BookMattBetterThanShow]

3 minutes ago, A Memory Of Why said:

Serious question, did Lanfear actually die?

 

Now I'm no marine biologist but would those wounds kill you straight away?

 

Genually curious.

 

Yeah, it looks like she died but I wouldn't be surprised if she was playing possum to see what Rand does. For a hot second it sounded like he was going to avenge her.

No she is not dead

[DigificWriter]

No, Lanfear didn't die, because Moiraine literally says that she can't kill her.

[Samt]

16 minutes ago, A Memory Of Why said:

Serious question, did Lanfear actually die?

 

Now I'm no marine biologist but would those wounds kill you straight away?

 

Genually curious.

 

Yeah, it looks like she died but I wouldn't be surprised if she was playing possum to see what Rand does. For a hot second it sounded like he was going to avenge her.

I'm pretty sure that the blink she takes is meant to let us know that she isn't dead.  As to whether or not this wound would kill you straightaway, the only thing that kills you instantly is a direct hit to the brainstem.  A stab to the heart stops bloodflow, but you aren't really dead until your brain dies of oxygen deprivation.  Similarly, slitting the jugulars only stops bloodflow to the brain.  It will still take some time for the brain to die from oxygen deprivation.  If the stab didn't hit the heart or the jugulars weren't severed, she might survive longer.  

 

Modern medicine likely isn't fast enough to save you in either of these situations (a slit jugular might be possible if you can stop the bleeding very quickly, but you don't have much time).  But One power healing might be able to heal either of these wounds if there was an Aes Sedai right there.

[Luinedhel]

I'll say I liked to see Hopper shown and named, but I'm having mixed feelings about "Selene"´s final sequence. Here are some thoughts on Episode 4 in general:

 

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

10 hours ago, nsmallw said:

14 hours ago, Rhand said:

Also a bit put off by Alanna and the warders going through Lan's personal things where they found the prophecy.

Yes! So grateful someone else noticed this and agrees. I felt the same.

Not much of a violation as Lan stole it from Moiraine who had first tricked it from Bale Domon.

 

This kind of unscrupulous scheming for advantage is a normal feature of Aes Sedai life.

[EmreY]

16 hours ago, Gary Again said:

Poor Rand is going to have trauma from this

 

In the overall scheme of Rand trauma... well... you know what I mean. 🙂

 

...

 

A couple of different points.  First the non-spoiler one.  The longer I watch the series, the more I feel that many, many things will need to be different to the books.  Some things can be shown easily, others hinted at, but some are plain impossible.  I can't find all that much that I would have done differently in this season than the showrunners did, and though I too may complain about emphasis being diverted from where it deserves, overall I think it's a better season than the first despite a whole lot of shuffling and short-cuts.

 

And second, major book spoilers:

 

 

Spoiler

Is Liandrin = Elaida now?  I see online that people say Elaida has been cast, so I'm not sure.

 

[MarcusM]

12 hours ago, Samt said:

It saves time, but also raises questions.  Is Balefire the only answer?  Why only the forsaken?  Is it unlimited?  Maybe we'll get answers to these questions, but I'm not sure if they'll be convincing.  In the books, the dark one still needs to steal new bodies and it takes some time and presumably resources.  In the show, it seems that it can happen instantly, anywhere, and without any significant cost.  That is a huge change in the power of the dark one and forsaken and just raises questions as to how they ever lost in the first place.  

 

Ahh, yes. Good questions indeed! Speaking of Balefire, makes me wonder if we will even see that?

 

So we now got clues that each seal in this WOTverse where tailored for one Forsaken.  And why would they be if there was Balefire around to simply kill them off? If I remember correctly from the books the Forsaken were sealed off in the DO prison simply because they were around when the bore was sealed off.

 

Here we seem to have 8 tailored seals. One to trap each Forsaken. If there were more potent weapons like Balefire around why even bother with the entrapment solution?

 

And if we won't see Balefire, then how would you kill an Original Chosen? Maybe a dagger can be made from the Avendesora tree to be plunged into the heart of the Chosen?

[VirusKiller]

13 hours ago, Samt said:

Is Balefire the only answer?

 

Probably.  The issue I have with the now-revealed depiction of Forsaken immortality is decapitation...  Let's face it, Moraine had the means, the motive, and the opportunity, but she went for the stab-through-the-heart option...  So how would decapitation work?  I'm envisaging Nearly-Headless-Nick, but worse 😉  (WoT is not the first show which has given rise to this thought.)

 

1 hour ago, MarcusM said:

Speaking of Balefire, makes me wonder if we will even see that?

 

Hmm, obviously it's first used in the books when Moraine Balefires Sammael's hounds, and then Be'lal in the Stone.  Interestingly, if Moraine could channel ATM, the final scene in E.204 would/could/should have been very different (bye bye Lanfear; it was nice you never existed).  I think we'll see it from Moraine (first) when she regains the ability to channel.

 

8 hours ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

Not much of a violation as Lan stole it from Moiraine who had first tricked it from Bale Domon.

 

...who stole it from Unkar Plutt, who stole it from the Irving Boys, who stole it from Ducain, who stole it from Han and Chewie...

Edited September 10, 2023 by VirusKiller

[DreadLord31]

1 hour ago, EmreY said:

 

In the overall scheme of Rand trauma... well... you know what I mean. 🙂

 

...

 

A couple of different points.  First the non-spoiler one.  The longer I watch the series, the more I feel that many, many things will need to be different to the books.  Some things can be shown easily, others hinted at, but some are plain impossible.  I can't find all that much that I would have done differently in this season than the showrunners did, and though I too may complain about emphasis being diverted from where it deserves, overall I think it's a better season than the first despite a whole lot of shuffling and short-cuts.

 

And second, major book spoilers:

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Is Liandrin = Elaida now?  I see online that people say Elaida has been cast, so I'm not sure.

 

Elaida is in S3, but I find the theory that Liandrin & Alviarian have been condensed fairly convincing. 
 

Heres some things I would have done differently: 

1) don’t write that Moiraine can kill one Fade alone with a knife, and then edit Lan’s fighting two Fades down to make him look incompetent, so you can make Fades movements look superhuman. 
If you go to the behind the scenes, Daniel Henney worked really hard on that scene & it was originally longer and better than what they gave us. Majorly bad choice both for the books & for Tv. At this point Tv viewers should be in agreement with Liandrin “Warders are glorified dogs.” And also believe that Lan isn’t at all special among Warders. 
 

2) Book or Tv only viewers are have no idea what you’re doing with the Warder bond crap. The writing and direction took a long time to make the audience believe that Moiraine is stilled & therefore Lan should be suicidal (lot of min in S1 to set that up). Now they’re backpedaling that she’s just shielded. But does that mean that the bond is still there, they just can’t feel it? In which case, Lan’s not really suicidal? Then what was the point of wasting all that time with these completely fabricated non-WoT stories? If they’re doing all this to keep Moiraine central - then casting Pike as Moiraine was the biggest mistake they’ve made thus far - because you’re going to have to keep doing that crap and messing things up to make her The Most Important WoT character. This is the Nynaeve show - could have cast her as Nynaeve. 

3. Knock it off with the “fake-out” deaths. You’ve done this over and over again in S1 & you’re doing it again in S2. What it does is make the audience not trust you; it’s a cheap gimmick. GoT was unique in American fantasy lit/Tv in that they actually killed their Main Characters. That’s interesting. This is not. At this point, what I think they should do is: 

Spoiler

Have Moiraine tackle Lanfear through an archway This Season and not return for at least 2 seasons.

Trust would be restored. And despite their fears and their false belief they need to keep Pike central - I’d bet you ratings would soar. Now that you’ve done so many fake-out deaths though, the payoff to a Huge WoT moment is next to nothing because: 

Spoiler

People will expect Moiraine to just be back with no explanation. 

It’s writing on a level as bad as Arrow. 
 

4. With that being said, I’d change the ending to this episode. Moiraine seems to “know” that Lanfear can’t be killed. Have her club Lanfear over the head with a board, then, Rand/Moiriane have their scene…blah, blah, blah, she’s Lanfear. Lanfear wakes up and tries to kill Moiriaine. Then Rand (with LTT’s help/in his head screaming) stops Lanfear from killing Moiraine by pinning her to the wall with the power & shielding her (reminiscent of Nyn/Liandrin). Rand/Moiraine run. Then Lanfear breaks the shield. That, my friend, is much better decision making. 

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

11 minutes ago, DreadLord31 said:

Knock it off with the “fake-out” deaths

Well, to be fair, the books had their fair share of fake out deaths too. Like, a lot. 
 

I kid, I hear what you’re saying 😊

[Ralph]

21 minutes ago, DreadLord31 said:

. 

 

2) Book or Tv only viewers are have no idea what you’re doing with the Warder bond crap. The writing and direction took a long time to make the audience believe that Moiraine is stilled & therefore Lan should be suicidal (lot of min in S1 to set that up). Now they’re backpedaling that she’s just shielded. But does that mean that the bond is still there, they just can’t feel it? In which case, Lan’s not really suicidal? Then what was the point of wasting all that time with these completely fabricated non-WoT stories? If they’re doing all this to keep Moiraine central - then casting Pike as Moiraine was the biggest mistake they’ve made thus far - because you’re going to have to keep doing that crap and messing things up to make her The Most Important WoT character. This is the Nynaeve show - could have cast her as Nynaeve. 

 

interesting, because I think exactly the opposite. the point is that we are supposed to think it has been broken - that is why he could not sense the Fades. but Alanna etc are not aware Moiraine has been stilled/shielded. we are supposed to be wondering if he really is like Stepin just is covering it up better or is more in control, or whether really not. I am very curious to see the denouement of this

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

36 minutes ago, Ralph said:

interesting, because I think exactly the opposite. the point is that we are supposed to think it has been broken - that is why he could not sense the Fades. but Alanna etc are not aware Moiraine has been stilled/shielded. we are supposed to be wondering if he really is like Stepin just is covering it up better or is more in control, or whether really not. I am very curious to see the denouement of this

I’m curious as well. Verin and co seem to believe that moiraine is stilled, using that assumption to explain her state of mind to lan, but imo Alanna and co isn’t clear how they perceive the situation. At first when ep4 began I thought they had bonded lan. Moiraine herself has a deep understanding of the impact of the loss of access to the op in the way she relates to logain. It seems like as far as she’s aware/concerned, she doesn’t consider it a likely possibility that she isn’t cut off permanently. She does seem to know the difference between being stilled and being apparently cut off beyond the ability to currently know how to reverse it….as I see it based on her continual attempts to channel and her continued identification as aes sedai