What are they doing to Canon?

[Elendir]

  On 11/27/2024 at 5:08 PM, DigificWriter said:

It is impossible to carry on a good-faith discussion with someone who makes it clear through their comments that they are not actually interested in having a good-faith discussion, which is why said persons get dismissed as not having any relevant thoughts about the show.

 

One of the signs of an opposing viewpoint that is worth talking about is that the person expressing said viewpoint can offer a strong defense of said viewpoint if/when asked to do so by someone who holds an opposing viewpoint, but the fact is that a good number of the show's haters fail to be able to accomplish this task if/when they are faced with it.

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I never call TV show with any pejorative words. Yet when I made a work to express the essence of my disagreement with it. I met only answers, like this isn't relevant, this isn't important, story started with the fourth book nothing before maters.

So yes, there is no reason to discus when one side decide to be deaf. The thing is, that all that "irrelevant" details caught up TV show at the end.

[king of nowhere]

there have been several productive discussions.

however, it's been over a year since the show premiered. we exhausted the meaningful discussions months ago.

[DigificWriter]

You cannot have a cogent conversation with someone who both refuses to accept the validity of any opinions or viewpoints that aren't in complete lock-step with their own and also either refuses to or cannot satisfactorily justify or substantiate their opinions and viewpoints when pressed to do so.

 

It's the reason why the Prequel and Sequel Trilogies fractured the Star Wars fandom and led to the huge rise of open toxicity within said fandom.

 

Constructive and civil discourse about the WoT TV series can absolutely happen here and elsewhere; it's just sadly rare due to the fact that a good number of those who want to criticize the show online have made it clear from their tenor and tone that they have no interest in considering any points of view that don't validate their own.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

  On 11/27/2024 at 8:45 PM, DigificWriter said:

You cannot have a cogent conversation with someone who both refuses to accept the validity of any opinions or viewpoints that aren't in complete lock-step with their own and also either refuses to or cannot satisfactorily justify or substantiate their opinions and viewpoints when pressed to do so.

 

It's the reason why the Prequel and Sequel Trilogies fractured the Star Wars fandom and led to the huge rise of open toxicity within said fandom.

 

Constructive and civil discourse about the WoT TV series can absolutely happen here and elsewhere; it's just sadly rare due to the fact that a good number of those who want to criticize the show online have made it clear from their tenor and tone that they have no interest in considering any points of view that don't validate their own.

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Of course that can be said to go both ways. It is not only about finding those that agree with us, but about experiencing different viewpoints. 

 

I would hesitantly put forward that that is why dealing with specifics is better - I have seen many differing opinions about the casting, for example, yet very few entirely positive or negative. That leaves room for interesting discussion. 

 

The same with for example, Thom's instrument. COVID has played a large part in some of the issues, yet that does not stop opinions or discussions of the rest.

[Mdh2000]

I felt that things were off to a bad start when they seemed to make pretty significant changes to the One Power and the nature of the Prophecies. They seem to imply that the One Power is a single whole, and men touch it that taint it. This is a very big change to the nature of the Power. And the idea that the Dragon could be a woman makes the Prophecy so much less damning. If the Dragon was a woman, then there's no fear of them going mad, which is a prime reason for The Dragon to be looked upon with such fear. 

 

I'll admit that I only watched until the end of the first Season before I decided it wasn't for me. I'll admit to having been very saddened by this.

[Skipp]

  On 3/25/2025 at 10:26 AM, Mdh2000 said:

I felt that things were off to a bad start when they seemed to make pretty significant changes to the One Power and the nature of the Prophecies. They seem to imply that the One Power is a single whole, and men touch it that taint it. This is a very big change to the nature of the Power. And the idea that the Dragon could be a woman makes the Prophecy so much less damning. If the Dragon was a woman, then there's no fear of them going mad, which is a prime reason for The Dragon to be looked upon with such fear. 

 

I'll admit that I only watched until the end of the first Season before I decided it wasn't for me. I'll admit to having been very saddened by this.

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The idea that we, as fans of Robert Jordan, will take a character voicing their opinion as gospel is hilarious.  Even more so when considering the character is in fact Liandrin.

 

Even if the Dragon was a woman she would still be feared.  The prophecies state that the Dragon will break all chains and potentially destroy the world.  But once again we are taking characters opinions as gospel.  Just because a character believes something to be fact does not mean that it is.

 

The only major change to the OP the show runner has made, aside from some Power scaling nonsense, is that you can be burnt out while linked.  I do think there is a 2nd major change to the OP but I cannot remember it this morning.  And they made some minor changes like the Aes Sedai of this age do not have knowledge of tying off weaves.

[Elder_Haman]

  On 3/25/2025 at 10:26 AM, Mdh2000 said:

 

I felt that things were off to a bad start when they seemed to make pretty significant changes to the One Power

 

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The key thing here is “seemed to”. They didn’t. I think the bigger issue is that they decided to turn season one in to a “who is the Dragon” mystery. It was a bad idea that really set everything back, IMO. 

 

If they had leaned into the darker aspects of the prophecies, really played up the dangers of male channelers, and made S1 more of a psychological thriller, it would have worked much better. 
 

They could even have gone with “is it Mat or Rand?” and gotten away with it. (Casting issues aside). 
 

With the exception of a couple clunky things in E8, I feel like it has been a pretty darn good adaptation since the beginning of S2. 

[Cipher]

I feel the show made a mistake by elevating Moiraine’s story to the forefront.

Ultimately the writers don’t care about Rand and therefore neither does the audience.  Rand’s relevance and character have been diminished in substantial ways.  He was clearly the protagonist of the first 2 books and those books are what led to a large enough following for the rest of the series.  The writers clearly rewrote the story taking things from Rand like both his mastery of the sword and his elevation to a lord—both of which are critical to his growth and story arc. E.G. Rand’s battle with Ishy in the series was completely lame.

 

The idea that the first 3 books were just a derivative fantasy story little to differentiate itself from others is contrary to what happened with these books.  Nobody would read 3x800+ pages books to get to the good stuff.

 

As an example I recently listened to Laura Ingalls Wilder’s “Little house in the Big Woods.”  Even though I identify most with Pa I wanted Laura’s story and if someone rewrote the story from Pa’s perspective I feel something would be lost in the story.

Edited March 28 by Cipher

[Elder_Haman]

  On 3/28/2025 at 9:05 PM, Cipher said:

Ultimately the writers don’t care about Rand

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Sorry. I just don’t see it. 

[Cipher]

  On 3/28/2025 at 9:22 PM, Elder_Haman said:

Sorry. I just don’t see it. 

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When they made him a murderer and then gave his sword training to Nynaeve for some reason in S2.  WTH Nynaeve gets sword training but Rand doesn’t. My message to writers is, “GTHO with that BS.
 

They gave far more time to ancillary characters—taking time from the EF5 which could have been more of a priority.

Edited March 28 by Cipher

[Elder_Haman]

  On 3/28/2025 at 9:26 PM, Cipher said:

When they made him a murderer and then gave his sword training to Nynaeve for some reason in S2.  WTH Nynaeve gets sword training but Rand doesn’t. My message to writers is, “GTHO with that BS.”

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Rand is getting trained with the sword this season. 

[SinisterDeath]

  On 3/28/2025 at 9:26 PM, Cipher said:

When they made him a murderer and then gave his sword training to Nynaeve for some reason in S2.  WTH Nynaeve gets sword training but Rand doesn’t. My message to writers is, “GTHO with that BS.”

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Rand is being trained by Lan in S3.

Nynaeve was just playing with Swords in S2, and was being actively chastised by Aes Sedai (Liandrin) about using a sword when she has the One Power.

 

This is a foreshadow to the scene where Nynaeve decks a certain Foresaken...

[Cipher]

  On 3/28/2025 at 9:28 PM, SinisterDeath said:

Rand is being trained by Lan in S3.

Nynaeve was just playing with Swords in S2, and was being actively chastised by Aes Sedai (Liandrin) about using a sword when she has the One Power.

 

This is a foreshadow to the scene where Nynaeve decks a certain Foresaken...

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I haven’t started S3 yet, but the writers are trying to back fill their omissions by NOW starting Rand’s sword training. Lol—after his battle with Ishmael.  Are we going to get some leadership training too this season? If so I will rest my case that they are clueless.

From what I remember it was implied that Nynaeve was training regularly with the warders—completely unnecessary, but part of the “woman power” glow up from the writers.

[Elder_Haman]

  On 3/28/2025 at 9:54 PM, Cipher said:

From what I remember it was implied that Nynaeve was training regularly with the warders—completely unnecessary, but part of the “woman power” glow up from the writers.

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You really haven't been paying attention. Nynaeve has done nothing for a season and a half. To the point where people are starting to complain that she's being ignored. 

 

Rand, meanwhile, is clearly the main character and just returned from Rhuidean at dawn. 

 

The only character at this point who has received a "woman power glow up" is Egwene. And even there, it's mostly just fast forwarding her power development.

[Turin Turambar]

  On 3/28/2025 at 9:26 PM, Cipher said:

When they made him a murderer and then gave his sword training to Nynaeve for some reason in S2.  WTH Nynaeve gets sword training but Rand doesn’t. My message to writers is, “GTHO with that BS.
 

They gave far more time to ancillary characters—taking time from the EF5 which could have been more of a priority.

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Who did Rand murder?

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

  On 3/28/2025 at 10:04 PM, Turin Turambar said:

Who did Rand murder?

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The mean dude that worked in the asylum with Logain. Perhaps more implied but definitely seriously injured. 

[Cipher]

  On 3/28/2025 at 10:04 PM, Turin Turambar said:

Who did Rand murder?

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The orderly from the mental institution—so that he could serve Logain.

[Elder_Haman]

  On 3/28/2025 at 10:05 PM, Cipher said:

The orderly from the mental institution—so that he could serve Logain.

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The more important question is why you think this is contrary to Canon? Do you not think Rand killed people while wandering alone during tDR? It's a function of saidin's influence. These are "show don't tell" breadcrumbs people will be able to follow later.

[Turin Turambar]

Okay. I thought that guy lived. but fair enough. 

 

[Cipher]

  On 3/28/2025 at 10:01 PM, Elder_Haman said:

You really haven't been paying attention. Nynaeve has done nothing for a season and a half. To the point where people are starting to complain that she's being ignored. 

 

Rand, meanwhile, is clearly the main character and just returned from Rhuidean at dawn. 

 

The only character at this point who has received a "woman power glow up" is Egwene. And even there, it's mostly just fast forwarding her power development.

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They sidelined Nynaeve after her testing?—IMO it was an over compensating nerf for the ninja powers they gave her in S1.  She can take out a trolloc solo (something a rusty sword master could not do) and sneak up on the best swordsman, legendary warder, king heir of a nation known for its martial prowess.

[Turin Turambar]

  On 3/28/2025 at 10:08 PM, Elder_Haman said:

The more important question is why you think this is contrary to Canon? Do you not think Rand killed people while wandering alone during tDR? It's a function of saidin's influence. These are "show don't tell" breadcrumbs people will be able to follow later.

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He undoubtedly caused deaths by his mere Ta'veren self causing fate to go wonky. He didn't actively kill them iirc. I do think the show is trying to show Rand does have a dark side, and is willing to break eggs to.make his omelette. 

[Elder_Haman]

  On 3/28/2025 at 10:11 PM, Cipher said:

They sidelined Nynaeve after her testing?—IMO it was an over compensating nerf for the ninja powers they gave her in S1.  She can take out a trolloc solo (something a rusty sword master could not do) and sneak up on the best swordsman, legendary warder, king heir of a nation known for its martial prowess.

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No question that they did Lan dirty with that. It was two seasons ago though. Time to move on. The course correction from S1 to S2 was significant.

[Cipher]

  On 3/28/2025 at 10:08 PM, Elder_Haman said:

The more important question is why you think this is contrary to Canon? Do you not think Rand killed people while wandering alone during tDR? It's a function of saidin's influence. These are "show don't tell" breadcrumbs people will be able to follow later.

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He did kill those dark friends in TDR even though he didn’t “know” they were dark friends, but they were there to capture him.  IMO it was Lews Therin’s influence knowing these people were after him/Rand. But after more taint than S2 Rand has had.

[Elder_Haman]

  On 3/28/2025 at 10:12 PM, Turin Turambar said:

He didn't actively kill them iirc.

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The text is very vague on that point. But at the end of the day, it doesn't matter. Having him kill the orderly was a smart and easy way to show the influence saidin is having, precisely because it is so out of character for him. 

[Elder_Haman]

  On 3/28/2025 at 10:15 PM, Cipher said:

But after more taint than S2 Rand has had.

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We don't know that. And again, character progression has to be sped up in the show.