What are they doing to Canon?

[Agitel]

22 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

The actual Warder bit of that episode was a tiny part in comparison to the really important part, a reason to bring the story to the White Tower and introduce tower politics in season 1. the whole Steppin bit didnt take up much run time at all, maybe 10 mins total if that, and that 10 mins shows the non book audience a key fact about the bond that keeps reoccurring right the way through the story.  

 

I understand the reason, but it is one of my criticisms that season one needed to spend a bit more time with the EFF. And I understand the logic in bringing the political element forward, but unfortunately I feel like it took away from something more important in season one. A lot of this may have been mitigated if the back half of S1 found its stride, but I don't think it did.

[Scarloc99]

Just now, Agitel said:

 

I understand the reason, but it is one of my criticisms that season one needed to spend a bit more time with the EFF. And I understand the logic in bringing the political element forward, but unfortunately I feel like it took away from something more important in season one. A lot of this may have been mitigated if the back half of S1 found its stride, but I don't think it did.

I think there are 3 real issues with season 1, as you have already said the production levels where sub par, especially when comparing it to rings of power which came out pretty close to WOT, effects, dialogue, script, acting was all a bit meh and so changes from the book felt worse because they where not delivered well. 

Then there is the run time, it was just a little bit to short, 10 episodes, or a 2 hour episode 1 would have been far better and given a bit more time for it all to breathe. 

But the 3rd issue, and I know this is controversial, is the source material. For me Book 1 stands out from all the rest as the odd one out both in terms of the way it is written how it flows and the way many of the characters are portrayed. RJ specifically wrote a generic fantasy novel based off of lord of the rings and other tropes in order to get it published. It isn't the book he wanted to write, it is the book he needed to write in order to be able to write the books he wanted to. he himself stated that there where things in book one he put in just to get published. he then spends books 3-5 writing himself out of some of those early character choices and decisions. The writers had to create a first season that matches the tone of the later books and so they had to construct a different story based off the original but with it's own feel. I don't think they did a great job, but I do give them props for trying an impossible task. I would say Book 4 is where RJ actually finds his real voice and writes the fantasy story he wanted to write. he takes 3 books to get there because book 1 is so far away from it. 

[Samt]

9 hours ago, Agitel said:

As for Moiraine, she is present and doing stuff in books three through five. She is literally just not present for most of book two.

Spoiler

And then she is absent for books 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, and most of book 13.  ie. She is gone for the majority of the books.  

Even if you need Moiraine to come back later, it's not as if the production of WoT is fully booking the actors anyways.  They released 8 episodes in 2 years.  I'm not sure exactly how long that takes to film, but I'm suspecting a few months at most.  So the actors are already inactive the majority of the time (presumably available for other projects) and expected to come back for filming every few years.  

[DigificWriter]

Two things:

1) Production for Season 2 started in July 2021 and finished in February 2022 (7 months). It's impossible to know with complete certainty how long Season 1's original production schedule was supposed to have been, but at the time of the COVID shutdown in March 2020, they'd been filming for about 7 months (since production had begun in September 2019) and had completed the filming for at least part of Episode 7, so I'd say that we probably would've been looking at an 8-month shoot without the shutdown.

 

2) The main cast of any given TV series are typically signed to multi-year contracts in order to guarantee their availability and avoid schedule conflicts, although if a schedule conflict does come up, most shows will generally be willing to try and make accommodations within reason.

Edited September 7, 2023 by DigificWriter

[Cipher]

On 9/6/2023 at 2:14 PM, swollymammoth said:

If they had nothing to fear from him, why did the Aes Sedai in the books guard him so closely? Just saying, if the Aes Sedai in the books thought there was reason to guard Logain and the TV show wants to just dump him somewhere random so that he can run into Rand more conveniently, it's on the show to justify that. 

Because in the books the Reds set him up to be a false dragon, so they had to keep that under wraps. They probably had authority over him—their jurisdiction.  TV—-? Who knows.

[zacz1987]

On 9/9/2023 at 1:01 PM, Cipher said:

Because in the books the Reds set him up to be a false dragon, so they had to keep that under wraps. They probably had authority over him—their jurisdiction.  TV—-? Who knows.

 

This never actually happened. It was the lie that Siuan, Leane and Logain came up with to try and get the rebel Aes Sedai to act against the tower. It worked because the other Aes Sedai never considered that Siuan and Leane could lie even though they had been stilled.

[Scarloc99]

On 9/9/2023 at 6:01 AM, Cipher said:

Because in the books the Reds set him up to be a false dragon, so they had to keep that under wraps. They probably had authority over him—their jurisdiction.  TV—-? Who knows.

No they didn't, I see that Siuan and Liandrin really did do their job well :). 

Siuan spreads the tale of  the Reds setting him up as a false dragon only after she was overthrown and escaped. That is her plan for getting back at the Reds. The Reds never set him up, they never set any male up as a false dragon, the real scandal of the Reds was going out on a murder craze killing any man who it was even hinted at could channel, a plan that was instigated by a mis guided Black Ajah Aes Sedai thinking she was helping the cause by killing off the dragon reborn. 

[nsmallw]

On 9/6/2023 at 1:23 PM, JosephBurns said:

And I agree on the Rosamund Pike point, she was the "star" draw for the show, so it's difficult to follow TGH with her largely absent.  Creating this Ishamael story circumvents that challenge.

I think that if the rumors are true and a certain actress takes on the Cadsuane role then realistically Rosamond can take a "back seat" to acting in the show and just do producer type stuff. They can then expand Cadsuane's arc with that "big name actor" and give her prime billing, and/or hopefully by that point they won't need a big actor to bring in people to watch the show, the EF 5 will be enough. 

[Scarloc99]

2 hours ago, nsmallw said:

I think that if the rumors are true and a certain actress takes on the Cadsuane role then realistically Rosamond can take a "back seat" to acting in the show and just do producer type stuff. They can then expand Cadsuane's arc with that "big name actor" and give her prime billing, and/or hopefully by that point they won't need a big actor to bring in people to watch the show, the EF 5 will be enough. 

people seem to be reading lots into Rosamond becoming a producer, in reality it is standard now days for actors to gain a producer credit, this is done for 2 reasons, it gives them more control over what they and other actors are asked to do in the show/film, but more importantly there is a financial benefit, it guarantees them a bigger cut of any money made long after filming is finished. It rarely comes with any additional responsibilities. 

Edited September 11, 2023 by Scarloc99

[Cipher]

On 9/10/2023 at 1:08 AM, zacz1987 said:

 

This never actually happened. It was the lie that Siuan, Leane and Logain came up with to try and get the rebel Aes Sedai to act against the tower. It worked because the other Aes Sedai never considered that Siuan and Leane could lie even though they had been stilled.

Ah I must have been day dreaming during the explanation it was an invented story in the book.  Jordan did not re-explain that it was an invented story, because I have been listening to the books on audio and they don’t clarify that point except may be when it started(?).

[Scarloc99]

4 hours ago, Cipher said:

Ah I must have been day dreaming during the explanation it was an invented story in the book.  Jordan did not re-explain that it was an invented story, because I have been listening to the books on audio and they don’t clarify that point except may be when it started(?).

It is brought up later on but yes when Siuan and Leane escapes the tower they explain the plan to Logain and Min, 

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

On 9/6/2023 at 5:15 PM, Agitel said:

It's a little like how they expanded Theon Greyjoy 's arc in one of the GOT seasons because otherwise he'd be off screen the whole time

They showed how the brash reckless Theon was broken into Reek - in the books this was shown in retrospect via Reek's internal POV thinking (and shying away from thinking) about what was done to him.  A necessary change for TV to show how hard it was for him to recover himself.  I would not characterise that as a change just to keep the character on screen.  

[Mirefox]

20 hours ago, Cipher said:

Ah I must have been day dreaming during the explanation it was an invented story in the book.  Jordan did not re-explain that it was an invented story, because I have been listening to the books on audio and they don’t clarify that point except may be when it started(?).

It is made pretty clear in the book but you are also correct that it is almost never revisited.  I don't remember if Siuan comes clean when she gets to Salidar but it is not discussed much in the books.

[Scarloc99]

1 hour ago, Mirefox said:

It is made pretty clear in the book but you are also correct that it is almost never revisited.  I don't remember if Siuan comes clean when she gets to Salidar but it is not discussed much in the books.

She doesn't come clean to anyone other then Egwene who chooses not to reveal the lie, it is revisited a few times, but once she is healed Siuan tries to stick to the 3 oaths again as much as she is possibly able and so stops pushing the narriative, also on losing Logain the evidence is gone so they can no longer parade him in front of rulers to "tell his story" 

[king of nowhere]

2 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

 once she is healed Siuan tries to stick to the 3 oaths again as much as she is possibly able and so stops pushing the narriative

just saying that she can keep pushing the narrative also after taking the three oaths

"regarding logain and the reds, I spoke the truth" Yes, at some point she certainly said something true about logain and the reds; it doesn't have to cover all she ever said.

"as aes sedai I cannot lie, and I confirm you this: logain was manipulated and set up as false dragon by power groups among the aes sedai" that power group including, most notably, her and leane.

"the reds have allowed logain to flee and gain power" logain fled the tower during the red coup, and he gained power afterwards, so it's technically true

[Scarloc99]

5 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

just saying that she can keep pushing the narrative also after taking the three oaths

"regarding logain and the reds, I spoke the truth" Yes, at some point she certainly said something true about logain and the reds; it doesn't have to cover all she ever said.

"as aes sedai I cannot lie, and I confirm you this: logain was manipulated and set up as false dragon by power groups among the aes sedai" that power group including, most notably, her and leane.

"the reds have allowed logain to flee and gain power" logain fled the tower during the red coup, and he gained power afterwards, so it's technically true

Oh I agree there are ways she can go but she lets it all drop as far as coming from her because by that point the rumour is growing arms legs and a torso and doing it's own thing. The true art of deception is knowing when to stop telling the lie and sit and wait until someone comes to you with there own "piece of news" that you must hear, which is that very lie you started in the first place. At that point no one can ever trace it back to it's source. I think in the books also the rebel group got a bit more caught up with the other stuff going on, like sieging Tar Valon. 

[mogi68]

On 9/1/2023 at 6:06 AM, TamSwordsman said:

I'm halfway through S2Ep3...and I'm disgusted...

 

This Rafe bloke is destroying books I deeply love.

 

There is simply no purpose to so many of his/the producers changes.

 

This is truly "inspired by" or "based on"...in the most loosely applicable sense.

 

They are literally taking themes from the books and creating their own story...a story that doesn't even remotely follow details and plot lines accurately.

 

I get that at times Jordan was verbose and that there must be some changes in any adaptation...but the things that are true to the books are occasional homage and by far in the minority. 

 

What do others think???

 

This isn't the books. This is an alternate universe/different third age/mirror world/etc

Treat it as a separate thing and move on.

Edited September 13, 2023 by mogi68

[Jake Sykwalker]

On 9/4/2023 at 9:31 PM, Elder_Haman said:

I’ll do that. You’ll probably have a better experience over on Reddit. 

Actually some of what I've seen on Reddit is so comically positive that it is hard to believe that 90% of it aren't Amazon employees and probably show staff personally.  

 

Even for universally loved shows they usually have a lot of negative Nancy's.  That is the way the internet rolls. Evidently not in WotShow since every thing is rosy there and every episode is the best ever.  

 

Its ok to like the show, but that reeks of Amazon interference to drive positive show reaction.  Much like their IMDB reviews (Amazon owns IMDB) and their own reviews.  They absolutely pump it full of fake positive reviews whenever bad ones come in.  To pretty much always keep the score at the same point.  

 

On 9/6/2023 at 1:24 PM, DigificWriter said:

@Rolan Salvane Nice quote. I hadn't heard it before, but it echoes something that I'm fond of citing, which is a statement from Lucasfilm Story Group member (and inspiration for Rebels supporting character Mart Mattin) Matt Martin that the concept of Canon is only relevant to the people responsible for actively working on the creative side of any given IP.

 

Well, the Lucasfilm Story Group is the absolute worst people you could be quoting for me.  These are the same people that turned a very successful business to one that hasn't made money on movies since Disney bought them and is currently on life support. 

 

Some smart people put together what Lucasfilm published for figures in Europe to get tax credits (not what they claim they spent) and did some interpolating on what standard profits are for movies.  If they made money on all of their Disney films put together it wasn't much if anything. 

 

Remember these are the people that tried to take over the reigns from successful people like Timothy Zahn who sold books in the millions even on re-issue to books that sell in the thousands and Movies and Shows that are mixed at best.  

[Vervayne]

Add me to the list of diehard book readers who are aghast at the changes made by Rafe and team. RJ is likely rolling over in his grave to see his intricate worldbuilding trampled by showrunners. I was hoping to see a visual retelling of the Wheel of Time, but seem to be watching something very different instead.

 

Btw, if I see one more reason to "feel bad" for Liandrin I might barf. 

[IttyBittyOne]

On 9/5/2023 at 10:33 PM, DaddyFinn said:

Perrin is still dealing with the death of Laila, as he should be. He killed Laila with an axe so he's not ready to pick one up again. That's just good writing. He will get his axe when it's time.

Except in the books Perrin was 10 years younger and never married. The whole death/mourning of Laila was pulled outa someone's *** and many minutes of valuable screen time were wasted on Perrin's angst that could have been spent on the actual story. What did they have to omit from the book to cram this newly fabricated material in? Why fabricate this new background at all? It doesn't contribute to his overall story arc, so I respectfully disagree about it being good writing.

[SinisterDeath]

2 hours ago, IttyBittyOne said:

Except in the books Perrin was 10 years younger and never married. The whole death/mourning of Laila was pulled outa someone's *** and many minutes of valuable screen time were wasted on Perrin's angst that could have been spent on the actual story. What did they have to omit from the book to cram this newly fabricated material in? Why fabricate this new background at all? It doesn't contribute to his overall story arc, so I respectfully disagree about it being good writing.

What do you mean 10 years younger?

 

His book character is 20 and his show character is 20.

 

If you're going to bring in the fact that the actor is 26 during season 1, I have news for you.

 

You can't film 8 seasons of a show over ~10 years, and have a story that takes place over 2 years and expect actors to stay the age they were when filming began in season 1... That's not how linear time works... 

[VooDooNut]

2 hours ago, IttyBittyOne said:

Except in the books Perrin was 10 years younger and never married. The whole death/mourning of Laila was pulled outa someone's *** and many minutes of valuable screen time were wasted on Perrin's angst that could have been spent on the actual story. What did they have to omit from the book to cram this newly fabricated material in? Why fabricate this new background at all? It doesn't contribute to his overall story arc, so I respectfully disagree about it being good writing.

But what even is Perrin's motivation before he meets Faile? He's kinda just (a good guy) ping ponged around. I think his wife subplot adds depth to his character. ...It's not necessarily a comfortable topic. I doubt anyone wants to imagine themselves in his position. But it is interesting. They aren't getting rid of it either, so it'll be cool to see how his character develops with this as a foundation.

 

30 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

What do you mean 10 years younger?

 

His book character is 20 and his show character is 20.

 

If you're going to bring in the fact that the actor is 26 during season 1, I have news for you.

 

You can't film 8 seasons of a show over ~10 years, and have a story that takes place over 2 years and expect actors to stay the age they were when filming began in season 1... That's not how linear time works...

Oh, and to @SinisterDeath point, completely unrelated, but you should check out RIchard Linklater's work, if you're curious, for examples of a film maker embracing the reality of aging actors.

Edited September 29, 2023 by VooDooNut

[Mirefox]

13 hours ago, VooDooNut said:

But what even is Perrin's motivation before he meets Faile? He's kinda just (a good guy) ping ponged around. I think his wife subplot adds depth to his character. ...It's not necessarily a comfortable topic. I doubt anyone wants to imagine themselves in his position. But it is interesting. They aren't getting rid of it either, so it'll be cool to see how his character develops with this as a foundation.

 

Oh, and to @SinisterDeath point, completely unrelated, but you should check out RIchard Linklater's work, if you're curious, for examples of a film maker embracing the reality of aging actors.

In the books he kills a Whitecloak.  I believe it was to protect a wolf.  This advances his character traits a lot better than a made up wife-fridging and stays true to the books.  His internal struggles and motivations came from that first kill.

[SinisterDeath]

14 hours ago, VooDooNut said:

Oh, and to @SinisterDeath point, completely unrelated, but you should check out RIchard Linklater's work, if you're curious, for examples of a film maker embracing the reality of aging actors.

Isn't he the one who shot that movie over literally 12 years?

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

57 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

In the books he kills a Whitecloak.  I believe it was to protect a wolf.  This advances his character traits a lot better than a made up wife-fridging and stays true to the books.  His internal struggles and motivations came from that first kill.

For me Perrin was always a bit over the top. The nearly all the books, he freaks out about getting a bit angry now and again. He refuses the wolves over and over again despite all the times that costs him dearly. He's just too much of a torn-faced loon too often, and for little reason. And if a Forsaken had ever gotten a hold of Faile, and told him to jump off a cliff or they would kill her, he would have and doomed the world. Which devotion to me never sat well with his well meaning, quiet mannered heroism. The shows back story is an interesting take on making all that angst and mindless devotion much more understandable. Though did not agree they gave Mat a reason to always want to return to the Two Rivers, and Perrin a reason to never want to go back, as that seems the wrong way round really. 

 

I love the books, but the show changing something is not in of itself a bad thing. It depends^TM.