How different is too different?

[CaddySedai]

Also if someone is a Sanderson fan - they should read the books because he helped to complete them - the tv show should not weigh in on that. 

 

That is a weird hill to die on: “This adaptation I don’t like will put me off to reading a series that is almost legendary in the genre - written by an author some considered to be the spiritual successor to J.R.R. and finished by one of the greatest fantasy authors of our day who I am a big fan of.”

 

Methinks one may not be as big a Sanderson fan as they doth proclaim. lol

[Dagon Thyne]

There aren't actually that many scenes in great hunt that have to be told in their entire time.  For example a lot of the early book is just the party traveling across land.

 

A lot of the things that they do can be merged into a couple of scenes.

 

The only things that need to be clearly shown are them finding the fade that Fain killed, And maybe the visions that rand had when they went into That one village.  And all of those scenes could happen in a single village that they've come acrinstead of multiple villages.  

 

I'm still unsure whether or not they will use the portal stones are not.  They aren't central to the overall plot and are just there to add lore.  So they can be actually cut away without changing the plot.  

I could easily see them having rand get separated from the group after a trolloc attack or something like that, And meet up with serene, And travel with her Without actually Traveling through one of the portalstones.

 

 

[WhiteVeils]

16 hours ago, Cipher said:

IIRC here are some important points:

-Elayne intro (Gawyn and Galad?) Omitted from first season.

-Nynaeve, Egwene, and Elayne have to get some pot cleaning and spankings done in the WT...er training.

-Mat removed from Falme? If he is at TV--I guess he can hitch a ride with the wonder girls when duped by Liandrin.  His journey post TV in TDR is good Mat character building, Is that gone, but that is where Bayle Domon(1st appearance for show) and Thom come back into the picture.

-Horn Chase

-Lord Rand and Sheinaran story line.

-Perrin trained by Elyas.

-Lanfear?

-Rand needs to be in Falme to best Turak and have his sky moment.

-Girls in Falme to have quality time with the Seanchan.

-Loial healed.

-Moiraine's shield removed.

-Intro if Avienda.

-Faile? Gaul and his girls?

-Omit Cairhien and Alludra. Omit Rand's reunion with Thom? Portal stones or back into the Ways?

 

That only touches a smidgen of book 3.

Seems like a tall order

I've said it before, but I did a version that combines them here: A Version of Tomorrow - WhiteVeils - The Wheel of Time (TV), Wheel of Time - Robert Jordan [Archive of Our Own]

But things are much easier than you think.

We are introduced to Elayne when she meets Egwene as a roomate in the White Tower. We know this...the clip was shown at a convention.  We can meet Galad and Gawyn also through Egwene.  Later, well, Rand can fall off a wall anywhere to meet Elayne himself.  
We know Mat will be at Falme. We don't know how he gets there...he can go with the girls, or he can follow after them to rescue them.  Thom won't be in S2, but Bayle Domon will be.  Note: That could be because the actor was not available.
Horn Chase: Horn chase is happening, focused around Perrin.  We have screenshots of Perrin and the Sheinarans.
Lord Rand: From the shots we've seen, Rand will get a glowup, but it won't be exactly the same.  We don't know how yet but there's lots of ways this is done. In my version, Selene takes him to Barthanes and Barthanes dresses him up. Rand's role with the Sheinarans will be taken by Perrin...Perrin needs the focus.
Hurin will be being replaced by Elyas, which eliminates an extra set of powers and combines a role. If Perrin could follow Fain, Elyas could. That gives Perrin the chance to train 'on the job' and combines the stories.  We know this is happening...again, screenshots.

Rand already starts the season separated from the others, so there's plenty of opportunity to meet Lanfear before he meets up with them.

Rand is /likely/ in Falme.  We don't know why he goes there yet...in my version it is to save Mat and the girls just like the books.  Fain is luring them to Falme which is how he finds it.  That said, do not be surprised if they split up Rand's hero moments. Rather than fighting Turak AND Ishamael in the sky, there's a good chance ends up fighting just Ishamael.  If Perrin fights Lord Turok, that gives him a real hero moment, which he didn't get S1. Mat gets blowing the Horn, which is a real hero moment for him too.
We've seen screenshots of Egwene in a Seanchen collar so we know that is happening.

Loial healing: We don't know how badly he's hurt. This could happen before the season starts or it could happen later when they reach a stedding. Or it could require a dagger.

Moiraine's shield lifts when Ishamael dies, if nothing else.
Aviendha, Gaul, Bain, and Chiad can all be in the same group of Aiel.  We likely meet them along Perrin's journey travelling just like he met Urien, though adding a cage encounter on the road isn't a big lift.

Faile finding out they're searching for the horn will send her on their heels, and she doesn't need to be fully integrated to be introduced this season.

The Portal Stones will likely be combined with the Waygates, which explains why their configuration is different than in the books.  Cahrien is in...we've seen it. Rand goes their after their time alone and meets up with Moiraine and Lan.

It's all possible.  As long as you are flexible to understand it won't be just like the books.  

 

 

 

[Cipher]

5 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

I've said it before, but I did a version that combines them here: A Version of Tomorrow - WhiteVeils - The Wheel of Time (TV), Wheel of Time - Robert Jordan [Archive of Our Own]

But things are much easier than you think.

We are introduced to Elayne when she meets Egwene as a roomate in the White Tower. We know this...the clip was shown at a convention.  We can meet Galad and Gawyn also through Egwene.  Later, well, Rand can fall off a wall anywhere to meet Elayne himself.  
We know Mat will be at Falme. We don't know how he gets there...he can go with the girls, or he can follow after them to rescue them.  Thom won't be in S2, but Bayle Domon will be.  Note: That could be because the actor was not available.
Horn Chase: Horn chase is happening, focused around Perrin.  We have screenshots of Perrin and the Sheinarans.
Lord Rand: From the shots we've seen, Rand will get a glowup, but it won't be exactly the same.  We don't know how yet but there's lots of ways this is done. In my version, Selene takes him to Barthanes and Barthanes dresses him up. Rand's role with the Sheinarans will be taken by Perrin...Perrin needs the focus.
Hurin will be being replaced by Elyas, which eliminates an extra set of powers and combines a role. If Perrin could follow Fain, Elyas could. That gives Perrin the chance to train 'on the job' and combines the stories.  We know this is happening...again, screenshots.

Rand already starts the season separated from the others, so there's plenty of opportunity to meet Lanfear before he meets up with them.

Rand is /likely/ in Falme.  We don't know why he goes there yet...in my version it is to save Mat and the girls just like the books.  Fain is luring them to Falme which is how he finds it.  That said, do not be surprised if they split up Rand's hero moments. Rather than fighting Turak AND Ishamael in the sky, there's a good chance ends up fighting just Ishamael.  If Perrin fights Lord Turok, that gives him a real hero moment, which he didn't get S1. Mat gets blowing the Horn, which is a real hero moment for him too.
We've seen screenshots of Egwene in a Seanchen collar so we know that is happening.

Loial healing: We don't know how badly he's hurt. This could happen before the season starts or it could happen later when they reach a stedding. Or it could require a dagger.

Moiraine's shield lifts when Ishamael dies, if nothing else.
Aviendha, Gaul, Bain, and Chiad can all be in the same group of Aiel.  We likely meet them along Perrin's journey travelling just like he met Urien, though adding a cage encounter on the road isn't a big lift.

Faile finding out they're searching for the horn will send her on their heels, and she doesn't need to be fully integrated to be introduced this season.

The Portal Stones will likely be combined with the Waygates, which explains why their configuration is different than in the books.  Cahrien is in...we've seen it. Rand goes their after their time alone and meets up with Moiraine and Lan.

It's all possible.  As long as you are flexible to understand it won't be just like the books.  

 

 

 

Decent predictions, with a good focus on making it true to the spirit of the source.  I absolutely hate the injections of Rafe and crew, I know your opinion is more accepting of those changes. 

-If Mat is "cured" of his darkness and they incorporate some of his character building from TDR I will be pleased. 

-I want Liandrin's duping of the girls too.  That creates great tension, but I don't want it to be telegraphed for the non-readers.  I want it to be a devastating twist that drives home the peril of the Seanchan.

-I found the Lord Rand and Ingtar relationship from the book as a great storyline that really paid off in the end.  If that is not included I think the writers are as clueless as I found them in S1.

-No place for Bayle in your synopsis. Will be interesting to see where he comes in.

[WhiteVeils]

1 hour ago, Cipher said:

Decent predictions, with a good focus on making it true to the spirit of the source.  I absolutely hate the injections of Rafe and crew, I know your opinion is more accepting of those changes. 

-If Mat is "cured" of his darkness and they incorporate some of his character building from TDR I will be pleased. 

-I want Liandrin's duping of the girls too.  That creates great tension, but I don't want it to be telegraphed for the non-readers.  I want it to be a devastating twist that drives home the peril of the Seanchan.

-I found the Lord Rand and Ingtar relationship from the book as a great storyline that really paid off in the end.  If that is not included I think the writers are as clueless as I found them in S1.

-No place for Bayle in your synopsis. Will be interesting to see where he comes in.

Thank you.  I'm not sure where Bayle will fit in. He could fit in a couple of places I can think of and be very true to the books.
I think the Rand/Ingtar relationship may well be filled by a Perrin/Ingtar relationship, it's true.  But you can hit all of Ingtar's beats that way. And Perrin does need to learn leadership just as much as Rand does.   In the books he does take it when Rand is away from the group so it's not like it is never there.  Rand may have other opportunities for leadership that come up, whether with the Aiel, or other.

[Cipher]

20 hours ago, CaddySedai said:

Also if someone is a Sanderson fan - they should read the books because he helped to complete them - the tv show should not weigh in on that. 

 

That is a weird hill to die on: “This adaptation I don’t like will put me off to reading a series that is almost legendary in the genre - written by an author some considered to be the spiritual successor to J.R.R. and finished by one of the greatest fantasy authors of our day who I am a big fan of.”

 

Methinks one may not be as big a Sanderson fan as they doth proclaim. lol

I might show up one day with EOTW in tow trying to get him to read it.  I personally prefer Sandersons books in the WOT to 5 and half of his books I listened to on audio format.  But I think it is because of my investment in WOT, a more realized world, and better characterizations.  It makes me sad that the real Mat died with RJ.

Edited March 11, 2023 by Cipher

[Cipher]

On 3/10/2023 at 2:51 PM, WhiteVeils said:

Thank you.  I'm not sure where Bayle will fit in. He could fit in a couple of places I can think of and be very true to the books.
I think the Rand/Ingtar relationship may well be filled by a Perrin/Ingtar relationship, it's true.  But you can hit all of Ingtar's beats that way. And Perrin does need to learn leadership just as much as Rand does.   In the books he does take it when Rand is away from the group so it's not like it is never there.  Rand may have other opportunities for leadership that come up, whether with the Aiel, or other.

After thinking about this, I believe the Lord Rand story line is crucial to his development.  When Rand assumes leadership in Tear it was the Lord Rand character building that led to his readiness for it.  Without this well described progression Rand becoming a king like leader is completely implausible.

 

Perrin develops in the Battle of the 2Rs.  He had lots of help in Tam, Abel, Alanna and Verin to guide him and help him to accept the role as leader.

[WhiteVeils]

3 hours ago, Cipher said:

After thinking about this, I believe the Lord Rand story line is crucial to his development.  When Rand assumes leadership in Tear it was the Lord Rand character building that led to his readiness for it.  Without this well described progression Rand becoming a king like leader is completely implausible.

 

Perrin develops in the Battle of the 2Rs.  He had lots of help in Tam, Abel, Alanna and Verin to guide him and help him to accept the role as leader.

As I said, there is more than one way for Rand to learn this sort of leadership.  It doesn't have to happen the way it did in the books. 
There's a difference between 'I think the way the books did it was the best way and it would be hard to imitate' and 'completely implausible.'  We /have/ to be flexible and understand they will do things differently. They have to.  We can't say it is implausible or not until we see what they do.

[Skipp]

2 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

As I said, there is more than one way for Rand to learn this sort of leadership.  It doesn't have to happen the way it did in the books. 
There's a difference between 'I think the way the books did it was the best way and it would be hard to imitate' and 'completely implausible.'  We /have/ to be flexible and understand they will do things differently. They have to.  We can't say it is implausible or not until we see what they do.

I think this is quite true.

 

I personally think we won't get the tear arc until after season 3 so his Lord story line could develop during his leadership with the Aiel.

 

It is also possible that they include it in his Cairhien story for season 2 as we don't have a firm grasp of what he will be doing before Moiraine shows up.

[Mommycara]

On 3/11/2023 at 8:01 AM, Cipher said:

It makes me sad that the real Mat died with RJ.

Yes!

[phanooglestixs]

Going to keep giving the show a shot into season 3.  The deal breaker for me will be the Stone of Tear.  If the show skips all of that and goes straight into journeying to the Aiel Waste then I will be done.  The fact that I did not get to see the chase from Fal Dara to Falme and the reflection worlds of the Stone Pillars ruined season 2 for me.  The characters ended up being where they needed to be by the end of the season, but the journey was so different that, once again I wonder why these film people try "adaptations" rather than just creating their own unique world.  Lazy story tellers.

[qstor]

**spoilers***

 

I really disliked Season 1 so much that I didn't start Season 2 till now. I decided to give it a go after my wife said tv shows and books are often two "separate" things apart from each other. I didn't buy it. So I just finished Ep 1 of Season 2. Eh.....I think TOO different is TOO different. I understand cutting parts of a book  to make a show but I wish they'd kept closer to the plot. Like why wait to introduce Elayne until Season 2. I saw she was in the season online haven't gotten that far yet. I could gripe about all the issues I have like why not make a good CGI version of Loial instead of an obvious actor with make up as the ogier. The Darrell K Sweet cover of one of the books has Loial with a humanish face but I think he'd look more non human...but

 

I have an issue with all the changes but I'll give Episode 2 of Season 2 a go.

[Sabio]

I'm glad they didn't try to CGI Loial with as bad as the CGI has been.

[king of nowhere]

On 9/14/2024 at 1:05 AM, qstor said:

 I understand cutting parts of a book  to make a show but I wish they'd kept closer to the plot. Like why wait to introduce Elayne until Season 2.

 

i'm not going to debate the general point on "too different", on some levels it is.

but mentioning elaine is actually a prime example of a justified change.

namely, why would the tv show need to devote a lot of screen time - after already cutting a lot of important plots - to something that has no real consequence? you can cut away the early caemlyn sequence and it has absolutely 0 impact on the plot, everything that happens afterwards works the same. you recognize the importance of cutting something, that's one of the first things you can cut.

besides, there are problems with hiring actors for an early cameo. you hire elaine for season 1, now you have an actress for her, which you'll need in season 2. except that maybe she'll be hired for other projects and she won't be available, so you have to pay her extra to gain the right to call her. and morgase, and gareth bryne, and elaida. you have to hire a bunch of actors, and pay them to turn off future contracts. it's a big cost, and a big hassle.

those early cameos for characters that would be important later worked great in the books, where the characters wouldn't need to be paid. in tv format, it's terrible. add in the need to cut stuff, and how they were already short in characterization... that was a good change.

[HeronMarkedBlade]

On 9/13/2024 at 8:05 PM, qstor said:

**spoilers***

 

I really disliked Season 1 so much that I didn't start Season 2 till now. I decided to give it a go after my wife said tv shows and books are often two "separate" things apart from each other. I didn't buy it. So I just finished Ep 1 of Season 2. Eh.....I think TOO different is TOO different. I understand cutting parts of a book  to make a show but I wish they'd kept closer to the plot. Like why wait to introduce Elayne until Season 2. I saw she was in the season online haven't gotten that far yet. I could gripe about all the issues I have like why not make a good CGI version of Loial instead of an obvious actor with make up as the ogier. The Darrell K Sweet cover of one of the books has Loial with a humanish face but I think he'd look more non human...but

 

I have an issue with all the changes but I'll give Episode 2 of Season 2 a go.

I quit 15 minutes in to episode 3 of the first season, and was put off immediately by the very first scene. Not only skipping an incredibly important prologue,  but then Elaida completely misrepresenting Saidar and Saidin to the audience in her speech to Logan. 
 

Perrin then kills his…. Wife??? WTF!

 

The dragon can be a girl! 

 

the boys are ignored for most of the runtime of three episodes. I’ve heard it doesn’t get better. Three of the 7 most important characters in the series, one the literal main character. Ignored.
 

Not one of these changes was required to adapt the show. Not one moves the plot/story in a better way, none of them are in line with anything that is in the Eye of the World. It is just nonsense. None of the changes are in service to the story. . 
 

And that is just the first episode. By the start of the 3rd I couldn’t believe what I was seeing. It made me profoundly sad, because I don’t ever want this series or its characters tainting the pictures of the characters and world drawn by my mind when I reread a book in the series, usually yearly. 
 

I see so much wrong. It’s not about having to cut things and adapt for screen, that’s not what happened here. They just don’t respect the source material.

Edited September 16 by HeronMarkedBlade

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

On 9/16/2024 at 5:41 AM, HeronMarkedBlade said:

the very first scene. Not only skipping an incredibly important prologue,  but then Elaida completely misrepresenting Saidar and Saidin to the audience in her speech to Logan. 

Since you are not watching it you probably do not care but it was Liandrin not Elaida and a random male channeller not Logain (who would have crushed 3 average Aes Sedai).   I agree that the speech was rubbish.

[WheelofJuke]

On 9/15/2024 at 11:41 PM, HeronMarkedBlade said:

I quit 15 minutes in to episode 3 of the first season, and was put off immediately by the very first scene. Not only skipping an incredibly important prologue,  but then Elaida completely misrepresenting Saidar and Saidin to the audience in her speech to Logan. 
 

Perrin then kills his…. Wife??? WTF!

 

The dragon can be a girl! 

 

the boys are ignored for most of the runtime of three episodes. I’ve heard it doesn’t get better. Three of the 7 most important characters in the series, one the literal main character. Ignored.
 

Not one of these changes was required to adapt the show. Not one moves the plot/story in a better way, none of them are in line with anything that is in the Eye of the World. It is just nonsense. None of the changes are in service to the story. . 
 

And that is just the first episode. By the start of the 3rd I couldn’t believe what I was seeing. It made me profoundly sad, because I don’t ever want this series or its characters tainting the pictures of the characters and world drawn by my mind when I reread a book in the series, usually yearly. 
 

I see so much wrong. It’s not about having to cut things and adapt for screen, that’s not what happened here. They just don’t respect the source material.

"Just nonsense..." 

Most succinct way of summing up the entire adaptation. Kudos. 🙂

[Samt]

On 9/15/2024 at 9:41 PM, HeronMarkedBlade said:

Three of the 7 most important characters in the series, one the literal main character. Ignored.

Bit of a tangent, but who do you see as the 7.  I've mostly seen references to the 6 being the EFF+Elayne.  Who is #7?

[Jaccsen]

On 9/20/2024 at 5:51 PM, Samt said:

Bit of a tangent, but who do you see as the 7.  I've mostly seen references to the 6 being the EFF+Elayne.  Who is #7?

The core main characters in book 1:

 

Rand, Mat, Perrin, Egwene, Nynaeve, Morraine, Lan.

 

The core supporting characters in book 1:

 

Thom, Loial

 

You can also make an argument that the following characters were critical to introduce in book 1:

 

Min, Tam, Elaida, Bayle, Elayne, Galad, Gawin.

 

Meeting Rand was one of the core reasons Elaida performed the tower coup.

 

Instead, were got a lot of characters that did not matter for season 1 like Liandrin and Logain, and even Siun.

 

People argue that introducing Elayne in season 1 to have her wait around. Well, what about Logain. He does not become important until the coup and escape to Salidar while Elayne, Bayle, and Thom all had major roles in book 2.

 

They added a load of trash that never happened into season 1 while ignoring core characters and core supporting characters.

[Samt]

1 hour ago, Jaccsen said:

The core main characters in book 1:

 

Rand, Mat, Perrin, Egwene, Nynaeve, Morraine, Lan.

 

The core supporting characters in book 1:

 

Thom, Loial

 

You can also make an argument that the following characters were critical to introduce in book 1:

 

Min, Tam, Elaida, Bayle, Elayne, Galad, Gawin.

 

Fair enough if we're talking about book 1.  But that definitely is not the 7 core characters of the series.  

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

14 hours ago, Jaccsen said:

Meeting Rand was one of the core reasons Elaida performed the tower coup.

Not merely meeting him, having a foretelling (which as ever she signally misinterpreted in line with her own prejudices).

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

I mean no matter what you think of the changes made to the story, I don't see how any adaptation would be possible of the books with only 8 short episodes per season. Sadly I'd say that decision is the part that is too different from the books and nothing, particularly from a purist's point of view for the plot could be done to save the original story, or any embellishments. 

[Geneyus]

I'll watch the rape of the books only if it's free to me so I can cringe and complain, but never, never, ever will I spend a cent to watch it. I wouldn't have watched the first 2 seasons if it wasn't free to amazon prime members and since episode 1 I was horrified at the artistic abortion of the books.

In book 1 alone they left out so much. Not meeting Elayne, Gawyn, the Queen, Bryne, Elaida. Why they bothered with Thom and couldn't even tell his entrance right. They completely messed the whole series from the very 1st episode.

Edited Wednesday at 08:36 PM by SinisterDeath
Language - abbreviations are still swearing.