Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers) v2.1

[Skipp]

Completely off topic to the recent discussions.  I was perusing the WotShow reddit and in the thread about Brandon Sanderon's interview the topic of LotR came up and these two quotes were quite interesting.

 

Concerning Arwen

"Don't people know that it's impossible for the fiery young (seeming) woman to sneak up behind our rugged male warrior-ranger protagonist in the woods and put a sword to his throat while he's distracted by the medical needs of the person he's traveling with!? Ugh, feminism! /s"

 

Concerning cutting plot points

"If you cut Tom Bombadil, the whole story is wrecked. If you cut Tom, then how do the Hobbits escape the Barrow Downs? If you cut the Barrow Downs, how does Merry get a Westerness blade? If Merry doesn't have the Westerness blade, he can't hurt the Witch King, and then Eowyn would have no shot at killing him. Now we have the Witch King running free - what are they going to do...have Theodin kill him?"

 

And LotR is now considering the gold standard of adaptions.  Most people don't remember the fan backlash when the movies were coming out, the internet wasn't as big once upon a time.

[Elder_Haman]

28 minutes ago, Badmaw said:

 

Do the books actually say he stole pies or do they suggest he may have stolen pies?

Mat was often blamed for pies that ended up missing. And for other mischief. 

[Gothic Flame]

35 minutes ago, flinn said:

 I agree with this. Mat went from the rascal to a thieving, gambling, degenerate that deserves no sympathy at all in the beginning. Mat was always a really good guy that grumbled. He is now an untrustworthy punk.

Just for the heck of it because I really don't think they'll show it for...reasons. Mat and his rant  regarding women;

Spoiler

He'll use loaded dice, so that you think you're losing by chance. And if you aren't clever enough to spot what he's doing, then maybe he deserves to take your coin. And that's that.

A woman, though, she'll sit down to that same game and she'll smile, and act like she's going to play. Only when it's her turn to throw, she'll toss a pair of her own dice that are blank on all six sides. Not a single pip showing. She'll inspect the throw, then she'll look up at you and say, 'clearly I just won.' Now, you'll scratch your head and look at the dice. Then you'll look up at her, then down at the dice again 'But there aren't any pips on these dice' you'll say." 'Yes there are,' she'll say. 'And both dice rolled a one.' 'That's exactly the number you need to win,' you'll say. 'What a coincidence,' she'll reply, then begin to scoop up your coins. And you'll sit there, trying to wrap your head 'bout what just happened. And you'll realise something. A pair of ones isn't the winning throw! Not when you threw a six on your turn. That means she needed a pair of twos instead! Excitedly you'll explain what you've discovered. Only then do you know what she'll do?"

 

"No idea, Mat."

 

"Then she'll reach over and rub the blank faces of her dice. And then, with a perfectly straight face, she'll say, 'I'm sorry. There was a spot of dirt on the dice. Clearly you'll see they actually came up as twos!' And she'll believe it. She'll bloody believe it!"

 

"Incredible."

 

"Only that's not the end of it!"

 

"I had presumed it wouldn't be Mat."

 

"She scoops up all of your coins. And then every other wonam in the room will come over and congratulate her on throwing that pair of twos! The more you complain, the more those bloody women will join in the argument. You'll be outnumbered in a moment, and each of those women will explain to you how those dice clearly read twos, and how you really need to stop behaving like a child. Every single flaming one of them will see the twos! even the prudish woman who has hated your woman from birth - since your woman's granny stole the other woman's granny's honeycake recipe when they were both maids - that woman will side against you."

 

"They're nefarious creatures indeed."

 

"By the time they're done, you'll be left with no coin, several lists worth of errands to run and what clothing to wear and a splitting headache. You'll sit there and stare at the table and begin to wonder, just maybe, if those dice didn't read twos after all. If only to preserve what's left of your sanity. That's what it's like to reason with a woman, I tell you.

 

[themann1086]

I'm surprised folks don't find Mat sympathetic. He's stealing yes but he's doing it to try and provide for his sisters. He's got a gambling problem but again he's doing it to try and get more money for his sisters (lots of people make this mistake). The people I'm watching with, non-book readers, really like Mat and feel for him. Just my 2 cents!

[Agitel]

2 minutes ago, themann1086 said:

I'm surprised folks don't find Mat sympathetic. He's stealing yes but he's doing it to try and provide for his sisters. He's got a gambling problem but again he's doing it to try and get more money for his sisters (lots of people make this mistake). The people I'm watching with, non-book readers, really like Mat and feel for him. Just my 2 cents!

 

His relationship with his sisters was certainly supposed to make him likable as a character, a counterpoint to his thieving. It's not meant to excuse his thieving entirely or mean it's right, but people who do bad things can be likable characters. That was what they tried to do.

[DojoToad]

I find Mat a very sympathetic character even with the 'harder edge' as @Elder_Haman pointed out.  Not excusing his thieving, womanizing, or excessive gambling, but how many of us have made bad decisions based on what life threw at us? Or even if we just thought we could get away with it.  People are stupid, immature, or reckless sometimes - not good but it happens.

 

Later, we learn from the error of our ways and make adjustments, do we want to be judged on what we were or what we are?  There is a price to pay regardless, but it doesn't have to be the 'death penalty'.  The shadow of past actions may always be there, but hopefully redemption also.

Edited December 9, 2021 by DojoToad

[Ralph]

3 hours ago, Sabio said:

I should of said 13 when going out after someone like Taim or Logain, the people causing troubles (declaring themselves the dragon and such), people you need to send Aes Sedai to deal with.  If finding someone like Owen you wouldn't expect thirteen sisters coming into town.  But I just don't see any way they would go after people like Taim or Logain with such a small group or try to shield him with only 3 people.

 

The fact he broke free like twice to be just made the Aes Sedai look like they had no idea what they were doing.

In the books they have 8 shielding Logain in Caemlyn. 13 is only for formal occasions, like gentling, and the reason is because nobody can resist that, like Rand in LoC. 

 

2 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

I think it's meant to convey the idea that they were unprepared for Logain's strength. That most of the male channelers they deal with are like Owyn, or the poor dude at the beginning: weak and easily subdued. Logain is something they were not prepared for.

Definitely this. And also showing their complacency and arrogance. The point with the army is also that - they all (maybe not Kerene) believed they ran home to their mothers, like Liandrin said. 

 

2 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

Could that be purposeful? Remember, the Aes Sedai aren't what they used to be. Tower membership is at an all-time low. There is a lot of bickering and ajah infighting (though at this point, kept mostly under the rug). So, it seems on brand that the operation to get Logain came off a little sloppy. Add in a little BA motivation and I think that your observation is correct - and also a conscious choice in how the Tower is being depicted.

Possible, but I think they haven't given us enough background for this. The empty tower hasn't been referred to at all yet. 

 

2 hours ago, Badmaw said:

I get that and agree that when they aren’t out in the field that’s the appropriate way to portray them.  But, when they’re out in the country, traveling mile upon mile, fighting battles, they would/could not remain gleaming white.  It’s unrealistic and frankly silly.

In TSR in the Two Rivers they are in the field. 

 

2 hours ago, Badmaw said:

Another point.  In the show Mat, frankly, is portrayed as a degenerate gambler and thief.  It’s been awhile but did the books portray him this way?  I recall Mat was a prankster who was irritating, in a humorous way, not a criminal with a gambling addiction.

I don't agree with this at all. In the first two episodes, and sometimes in the latter ones, he is a caring and amusing individual. He cares for Perrin at the end of Ep1, he is emotional when R and P give him money. Yes, he gambles too much, but no degeneracy. And I don't believe at all that he stole the armlet. Maybe we are meant to think so, but to me it just doesn't fit at all with the character as portrayed in the show. 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Elder_Haman said:

He was a thief in the books. He stole pies.

There is a long literary tradition of pie-stealing being considered a normal childhood escapade. Not thieving as such

 

Though we could add this to the list of examples of RJ describing the three as acting much younger than they really are

 

45 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

Just for the heck of it because I really don't think they'll show it for...reasons. Mat and his rant  regarding women;

  Hide contents

He'll use loaded dice, so that you think you're losing by chance. And if you aren't clever enough to spot what he's doing, then maybe he deserves to take your coin. And that's that.

A woman, though, she'll sit down to that same game and she'll smile, and act like she's going to play. Only when it's her turn to throw, she'll toss a pair of her own dice that are blank on all six sides. Not a single pip showing. She'll inspect the throw, then she'll look up at you and say, 'clearly I just won.' Now, you'll scratch your head and look at the dice. Then you'll look up at her, then down at the dice again 'But there aren't any pips on these dice' you'll say." 'Yes there are,' she'll say. 'And both dice rolled a one.' 'That's exactly the number you need to win,' you'll say. 'What a coincidence,' she'll reply, then begin to scoop up your coins. And you'll sit there, trying to wrap your head 'bout what just happened. And you'll realise something. A pair of ones isn't the winning throw! Not when you threw a six on your turn. That means she needed a pair of twos instead! Excitedly you'll explain what you've discovered. Only then do you know what she'll do?"

 

"No idea, Mat."

 

"Then she'll reach over and rub the blank faces of her dice. And then, with a perfectly straight face, she'll say, 'I'm sorry. There was a spot of dirt on the dice. Clearly you'll see they actually came up as twos!' And she'll believe it. She'll bloody believe it!"

 

"Incredible."

 

"Only that's not the end of it!"

 

"I had presumed it wouldn't be Mat."

 

"She scoops up all of your coins. And then every other wonam in the room will come over and congratulate her on throwing that pair of twos! The more you complain, the more those bloody women will join in the argument. You'll be outnumbered in a moment, and each of those women will explain to you how those dice clearly read twos, and how you really need to stop behaving like a child. Every single flaming one of them will see the twos! even the prudish woman who has hated your woman from birth - since your woman's granny stole the other woman's granny's honeycake recipe when they were both maids - that woman will side against you."

 

"They're nefarious creatures indeed."

 

"By the time they're done, you'll be left with no coin, several lists worth of errands to run and what clothing to wear and a splitting headache. You'll sit there and stare at the table and begin to wonder, just maybe, if those dice didn't read twos after all. If only to preserve what's left of your sanity. That's what it's like to reason with a woman, I tell you.

 

Personally I hated BS's Mat, I found it written completely wrong, although better in Tom and MoL than TGS. And this was one example. 

[Sabio]

7 minutes ago, Ralph said:

In the books they have 8 shielding Logain in Caemlyn. 13 is only for formal occasions, like gentling, and the reason is because nobody can resist that, like Rand in LoC. 

True but in the books they probably had at least 30 Aes Sedai, Moiraine comments there were at least 20 Aes Sedai in the city and everyone but her a Red.  Since there were warders in the procession we know there were non reds also.  So 13 might of made the shield and just 8 were holding it the rest tied off.  Plus you had plenty of sister to make the shield 13 again if needed.  Where in the book you have 3 sisters holding it and a total of just 8 sisters.

[Spiritweaver1]

28 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

 

Later, we learn from the error of our ways and make adjustments, do we want to be judged on what we were or what we are?  There is a price to pay regardless, but it doesn't have to be the 'death penalty'.  The shadow of past actions may always be there, but hopefully redemption also.

Well in the book Matt gets the death penalty and the sentence is carried out.  It wasn't  necessarily for being a thief.  I personally am going to be very interested in Matt's  arc in the show.  In the books his being a gambler is a good  thing.  Time to roll the dice.  

[Badmaw]

1 hour ago, Elder_Haman said:

Mat was often blamed for pies that ended up missing. And for other mischief. 

Blamed for but not actually caught stealing.  There’s a difference from the point of the viewers/ readers perspective.  And, (maybe) stealing pies vs. obviously selling stolen goods is the difference between a rowdy young man and a straight up thief.  The idea that he is stealing to provide for his sisters is somewhat legit BUT he lost all his money gambling.  He sold the stolen item to recover his gambling loss.  Thus, the degenerate gambler perception.  TV Mat is nowhere near as likable as book Mat.  That’s a shame.

[Katherine]

1 hour ago, Gothic Flame said:

Just for the heck of it because I really don't think they'll show it for...reasons. Mat and his rant  regarding women;

  Hide contents

He'll use loaded dice, so that you think you're losing by chance. And if you aren't clever enough to spot what he's doing, then maybe he deserves to take your coin. And that's that.

A woman, though, she'll sit down to that same game and she'll smile, and act like she's going to play. Only when it's her turn to throw, she'll toss a pair of her own dice that are blank on all six sides. Not a single pip showing. She'll inspect the throw, then she'll look up at you and say, 'clearly I just won.' Now, you'll scratch your head and look at the dice. Then you'll look up at her, then down at the dice again 'But there aren't any pips on these dice' you'll say." 'Yes there are,' she'll say. 'And both dice rolled a one.' 'That's exactly the number you need to win,' you'll say. 'What a coincidence,' she'll reply, then begin to scoop up your coins. And you'll sit there, trying to wrap your head 'bout what just happened. And you'll realise something. A pair of ones isn't the winning throw! Not when you threw a six on your turn. That means she needed a pair of twos instead! Excitedly you'll explain what you've discovered. Only then do you know what she'll do?"

 

"No idea, Mat."

 

"Then she'll reach over and rub the blank faces of her dice. And then, with a perfectly straight face, she'll say, 'I'm sorry. There was a spot of dirt on the dice. Clearly you'll see they actually came up as twos!' And she'll believe it. She'll bloody believe it!"

 

"Incredible."

 

"Only that's not the end of it!"

 

"I had presumed it wouldn't be Mat."

 

"She scoops up all of your coins. And then every other wonam in the room will come over and congratulate her on throwing that pair of twos! The more you complain, the more those bloody women will join in the argument. You'll be outnumbered in a moment, and each of those women will explain to you how those dice clearly read twos, and how you really need to stop behaving like a child. Every single flaming one of them will see the twos! even the prudish woman who has hated your woman from birth - since your woman's granny stole the other woman's granny's honeycake recipe when they were both maids - that woman will side against you."

 

"They're nefarious creatures indeed."

 

"By the time they're done, you'll be left with no coin, several lists worth of errands to run and what clothing to wear and a splitting headache. You'll sit there and stare at the table and begin to wonder, just maybe, if those dice didn't read twos after all. If only to preserve what's left of your sanity. That's what it's like to reason with a woman, I tell you.

 

I love Mat. 

[Talya]

25 minutes ago, Badmaw said:

Blamed for but not actually caught stealing.  There’s a difference from the point of the viewers/ readers perspective.  And, (maybe) stealing pies vs. obviously selling stolen goods is the difference between a rowdy young man and a straight up thief.  The idea that he is stealing to provide for his sisters is somewhat legit BUT he lost all his money gambling.  He sold the stolen item to recover his gambling loss.  Thus, the degenerate gambler perception.  TV Mat is nowhere near as likable as book Mat.  That’s a shame.

I assumed he had won the bracelet off the girl and then tried to sell it…or she gave it to him as a token, hence he couldn’t have her find out he was selling it to get things for his sisters. But I could be wrong ?

[Agitel]

31 minutes ago, Badmaw said:

Blamed for but not actually caught stealing.  There’s a difference from the point of the viewers/ readers perspective.  And, (maybe) stealing pies vs. obviously selling stolen goods is the difference between a rowdy young man and a straight up thief.  The idea that he is stealing to provide for his sisters is somewhat legit BUT he lost all his money gambling.  He sold the stolen item to recover his gambling loss.  Thus, the degenerate gambler perception.  TV Mat is nowhere near as likable as book Mat.  That’s a shame.

 

I think he was gambling to try to get more money to buy gifts for his sisters because he didn't have enough to start with. Then he lost it and was even worse off.

[Spiritweaver1]

1 hour ago, Gothic Flame said:

Just for the heck of it because I really don't think they'll show it for...reasons. Mat and his rant  regarding women;

  Reveal hidden contents

He'll use loaded dice, so that you think you're losing by chance. And if you aren't clever enough to spot what he's doing, then maybe he deserves to take your coin. And that's that.

A woman, though, she'll sit down to that same game and she'll smile, and act like she's going to play. Only when it's her turn to throw, she'll toss a pair of her own dice that are blank on all six sides. Not a single pip showing. She'll inspect the throw, then she'll look up at you and say, 'clearly I just won.' Now, you'll scratch your head and look at the dice. Then you'll look up at her, then down at the dice again 'But there aren't any pips on these dice' you'll say." 'Yes there are,' she'll say. 'And both dice rolled a one.' 'That's exactly the number you need to win,' you'll say. 'What a coincidence,' she'll reply, then begin to scoop up your coins. And you'll sit there, trying to wrap your head 'bout what just happened. And you'll realise something. A pair of ones isn't the winning throw! Not when you threw a six on your turn. That means she needed a pair of twos instead! Excitedly you'll explain what you've discovered. Only then do you know what she'll do?"

 

"No idea, Mat."

 

"Then she'll reach over and rub the blank faces of her dice. And then, with a perfectly straight face, she'll say, 'I'm sorry. There was a spot of dirt on the dice. Clearly you'll see they actually came up as twos!' And she'll believe it. She'll bloody believe it!"

 

"Incredible."

 

"Only that's not the end of it!"

 

"I had presumed it wouldn't be Mat."

 

"She scoops up all of your coins. And then every other wonam in the room will come over and congratulate her on throwing that pair of twos! The more you complain, the more those bloody women will join in the argument. You'll be outnumbered in a moment, and each of those women will explain to you how those dice clearly read twos, and how you really need to stop behaving like a child. Every single flaming one of them will see the twos! even the prudish woman who has hated your woman from birth - since your woman's granny stole the other woman's granny's honeycake recipe when they were both maids - that woman will side against you."

 

"They're nefarious creatures indeed."

 

"By the time they're done, you'll be left with no coin, several lists worth of errands to run and what clothing to wear and a splitting headache. You'll sit there and stare at the table and begin to wonder, just maybe, if those dice didn't read twos after all. If only to preserve what's left of your sanity. That's what it's like to reason with a woman, I tell you.

 

I would hope they would include at least an abridged version of this rant.  It is that sort of thing that brings the characters and story to life.  Matt is one of the most interesting characters in the book.  The Randland world isn't supposed to be our world with our attitudes and moral strictures.   It has it's own and each of the cultures in that world have their own codes and attitudes.  

[MasterAblar]

Show mat is clearly darker than in the books from the get go. That being said I would say I care more for him at this point than I did in the book. Book 1 mat was amusing at the beginning but he quickly became grating in my opinion. Very immature and irresponsible, and in book 2 rather self centered at least until he learned the truth about Rand and even then he still was a bit. Sure he had his own issues. But nonetheless I find the show Mat a more compelling character from the get go, even though I resent what they did to his dad to make him that way.

 

So far I'm fairly happy with him but the big test will be, other than changing actors of course, the switch to book 3+ Mat. 

[MasterAblar]

1 minute ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

I would hope they would include at least an abridged version of this rant.  It is that sort of thing that brings the characters and story to life.  Matt is one of the most interesting characters in the book.  The Randland world isn't supposed to be our world with our attitudes and moral strictures.   It has it's own and each of the cultures in that world have their own codes and attitudes.  

 

The show has definitely tempered some of the character's opinions when it comes to men/women. Indeed I'm not sure it's been brought up.

 

But to be fair, it wasn't the most present thing in book 1 since you're constantly with Rand and on the run. It comes up more starting from book 2 with Nyneave in particular. I'm sure they will smooth it out somewhat but I'd hope they don't entirely. Gender dynamics are an integral part of the books and somewhat symbolic of a world imbalanced in how they're potrayed, even if they're a bit cringy at times. I trust Rafe will be able to bring it to the show in a realistic way.

[Ralph]

2 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

 

The show has definitely tempered some of the character's opinions when it comes to men/women. Indeed I'm not sure it's been brought up.

 

But to be fair, it wasn't the most present thing in book 1 since you're constantly with Rand and on the run. It comes up more starting from book 2 with Nyneave in particular. I'm sure they will smooth it out somewhat but I'd hope they don't entirely. Gender dynamics are an integral part of the books and somewhat symbolic of a world imbalanced in how they're potrayed, even if they're a bit cringy at times. I trust Rafe will be able to bring it to the show in a realistic way.

Tbh I would be surprised if it makes it at all

 

Unfortunately

[Vambram]

Just now, MasterAblar said:

 

The show has definitely tempered some of the character's opinions when it comes to men/women. Indeed I'm not sure it's been brought up.

 

But to be fair, it wasn't the most present thing in book 1 since you're constantly with Rand and on the run. It comes up more starting from book 2 with Nyneave in particular. I'm sure they will smooth it out somewhat but I'd hope they don't entirely. Gender dynamics are an integral part of the books and somewhat symbolic of a world imbalanced in how they're potrayed, even if they're a bit cringy at times. I trust Rafe will be able to bring it to the show in a realistic way.

 

I really hope that the show will indeed present RJ's representation of Gender dynamics. Although to some, it might be a bit cringy, for me the dialogue and verbal interactions of those gender dynamics are some of the most entertaining and funniest parts of RJ's books.

[MasterAblar]

8 minutes ago, Ralph said:

Tbh I would be surprised if it makes it at all

 

Unfortunately

 

I don't think it will make it as it is in the books exactly for sure. Certainly not with the same volume! If it did the women would come across as decidedly unpleasant quite often, and the men as bumbling morons. But it's definitely possible to make the prejudice they both hold come across as 1) realistic, and problematic when it needs to be and 2) humorous at other times 

[Ralph]

I really hope so, but I doubt it

[DaddyFinn]

I don't like the "Women are from Venus and men from Mars" thing at all. The few funny moments that come from it are not worth it IMO.

[Ralph]

6 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

I don't like the "Women are from Venus and men from Mars" thing at all. The few funny moments that come from it are not worth it IMO.

It def needs cutting down severely, but you could have just one or two characters living it, maybe Nynaeve

 

But as I said, I doubt they will have it at all

[MasterAblar]

46 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

I don't like the "Women are from Venus and men from Mars" thing at all. The few funny moments that come from it are not worth it IMO.

 

I don't find it very believable either but it doesn't mean some people don't. And beyond that prejudice and dumb generalizations exist regardless.

 

For what it's worth I'd argue several passages in the books argue against it anyway. The very similar advice Perrin and Faile recieve from Abel and Marin certainly comes to mind.

Edited December 9, 2021 by MasterAblar

[Chadouken]

2 hours ago, Ralph said:

And I don't believe at all that he stole the armlet. Maybe we are meant to think so, but to me it just doesn't fit at all with the character as portrayed in the show.

 

I thought the show made it pretty clear, when Fain asked Mat if he could resell the bracelet in Emond's Field, that the bracelet was contraband.

[WhiteVeils]

22 minutes ago, Chadouken said:

 

I thought the show made it pretty clear, when Fain asked Mat if he could resell the bracelet in Emond's Field, that the bracelet was contraband.

Fain certainly thought the bracelet was contraband/stolen.  If Mat had slept with Danya in exchange for the bracelet, given the Two Rivers culture, however, he would still not want it to be sold in town/not want to admit how he got it in the first place.

Either explanation works as "true" for me. I doubt they will say which happened.