Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers) v2.1

[SinisterDeath]

This Topic is dedicated to discussion of Season 1 of the Wheel of Time TV Series. Full book spoilers are allowed.
If you haven't caught up on the latest episode, please avoid this topic until you have.
 

Reminder:

1. Keep discussion on the TV Series.
2. If your post isn't about the TV Series, find a thread that's similar to what you're talking about, or create a new thread.
3. Be Respectful to each other.
4. If your posts are off-topic, they will be moved or deleted.

[Mailman]

I'll start this by saying i thought Ep4 was by far the strongest of the series.

 

I think what I will have to accept is this is not the Wheel of Time the deviations from the book are so large at this point that it renders it a different entity entirely. Going forward from this and as disappointing as i find it the show has the possibility of being okay as this separate entity.  

 

A lot of my dislike of the TV show has been based off what it has done to the source material but coming to the conclusion that it is not the Wheel of Time may allow me to get some enjoyment out of it.

[testicularthom]

Well said.  

 

I enjoyed episode 4 a great deal.  The liberties they took with the story -- specifically with what Nyn did I was OK with and even liked as It will hasten some things in the plot obviously.  Some of the dry humor between Lan and Nyn were good (not great but good).  It's going to be hard for those of us who enjoyed the books so much as those actors, writers, directors need some time I think.  I hate to make the comparison but GOT got it right almost from the get-go.  I don't know  how high quality production TV pulls that off (with GOT) but WOT is lacking in the greatness of the acting (the chemistry, the nuance and overall quality of the characters being portrayed) but that does not mean that it won't happen just that it hasn't happened yet.  I can tell some hard work went into developing the chemistry , It's just not as high quality as GOT or HBO's Rome that seemed to nail it from the get-go.  HBO's Rome series nailed the chemistry from the first take - I wonder why they could not employ those caliber of actors/actresses with such a budget?  Age constraints?

Cheers,

 

[RhienneAgain]

9 hours ago, testicularthom said:

I hate to make the comparison but GOT got it right almost from the get-go.  I don't know  how high quality production TV pulls that off (with GOT) but WOT is lacking in the greatness of the acting (the chemistry, the nuance and overall quality of the characters being portrayed) but that does not mean that it won't happen just that it hasn't happened yet.  I can tell some hard work went into developing the chemistry , It's just not as high quality as GOT or HBO's Rome that seemed to nail it from the get-go.  HBO's Rome series nailed the chemistry from the first take - I wonder why they could not employ those caliber of actors/actresses with such a budget?  Age constraints?

I think you've hit the nail on the head, here.  I was expecting something of similar quality to GoT and it just feels consistently a level below it.  The actors seem mostly ok (but not superb as in GoT) but I think the writing is also not in the same league.  

 

Another difference to me is that the characters in GoT were completely recognisable between the books and TV series.  Yes, there were some differences but the core character traits and personalities were the same.  If there was a new scene in the TV series, it still felt like part of the same GoT as the books because the TV character responded to that new scene in a way that felt true to the book character.  I'm not getting them from WoT.

 

In particular, Nynaeve seems really off.  The actress seems fine (if not spectacular) with the material she has been given, but she doesn't seem like the same Nynaeve as the one from the books.  And I'm not really even talking about the vast acceleration of her talents with saidar as of episode 4.  I mean more her actual personality seems unrecognisable.  There's none of the ascerbic, barely restrained temper and fury, or the bossiness and bluster.  I can't see book Nynaeve opening up to someone else about her traumatic childhood or being comfortable joining a campfire of Warders as the only woman.  It's like the show has just taken her name and a few basic attributes (healing talent, tracking talent, falls in love with Lan, can't control emotions) and then written a completely different character.

 

Lan feels similar to me - there isn't the same feeling of stoniness, or stoicism in TV Lan.  Same with Thom - the TV character is fine, but he's not recognisable as book Thom.

 

I think it's particularly jarring as some characters do seem to have been faithfully translated from book to screen (Moiraine, Perrin, Rand) so it feels more like bad writing or not understanding some of the characters instead of the show aiming to be different on purpose.

Edited November 27, 2021 by RhienneAgain

[Wraith235]

I was looking for a "Prediction thread" and couldnt find one .....

after 4 episodes in ... and a detailed dive into what we have left .... Im fairly sure we have more changes comming
I posted this over on redit but I'll do some snippets of what I see happening 

NOTE - THESE ARE MY PERSONAL PREDICTIONS based on IMDB casting credits, episode counts, Episode Names and what "Makes the most sense" in getting from plot point to plot point

Blood Calls Blood -
they are going to skip over Caemlyn

The Flame of Tar Valon -
Mat and Rand go to Basil Gils Tavern in Tar Valon (yes you read that right)
Rand and Logain Lock Eyes in Tar Valon
The Waygate used will be the one outside Tar Valon

The Dark Along the Ways-
Min will be in Fal Dara

Hopefully E108 will stay fairly close to what happened in the books ...

I already know people that have started comparing this show to Legend of the Seeker and Shannara Chronicles with the amount of Liberties taken. I personally dont see it as bad as Seeker yet ... but its defiantly on its way .... and at this point Im starting to question if there will be a season 3 
 

 

[flinn]

7 hours ago, RhienneAgain said:

I think you've hit the nail on the head, here.  I was expecting something of similar quality to GoT and it just feels consistently a level below it.  The actors seem mostly ok (but not superb as in GoT) but I think the writing is also not in the same league.  

 

Another difference to me is that the characters in GoT were completely recognisable between the books and TV series.  Yes, there were some differences but the core character traits and personalities were the same.  If there was a new scene in the TV series, it still felt like part of the same GoT as the books because the TV character responded to that new scene in a way that felt true to the book character.  I'm not getting them from WoT.

 

In particular, Nynaeve seems really off.  The actress seems fine (if not spectacular) with the material she has been given, but she doesn't seem like the same Nynaeve as the one from the books.  And I'm not really even talking about the vast acceleration of her talents with saidar as of episode 4.  I mean more her actual personality seems unrecognisable.  There's none of the ascerbic, barely restrained temper and fury, or the bossiness and bluster.  I can't see book Nynaeve opening up to someone else about her traumatic childhood or being comfortable joining a campfire of Warders as the only woman.  It's like the show has just taken her name and a few basic attributes (healing talent, tracking talent, falls in love with Lan, can't control emotions) and then written a completely different character.

 

Lan feels similar to me - there isn't the same feeling of stoniness, or stoicism in TV Lan.  Same with Thom - the TV character is fine, but he's not recognisable as book Thom.

 

I think it's particularly jarring as some characters do seem to have been faithfully translated from book to screen (Moiraine, Perrin, Rand) so it feels more like bad writing or not understanding some of the characters instead of the show aiming to be different on purpose.

 well yeah, of course Nynaeve is different. She is now the creator in the flesh. The DR will be her champion and Lan will be her Aes Sedai errand boy. I am now just laughing whenever I see Nynaeve on screen.

[Megatron]

So far my only real gripe is that they have forced in diversity for the cast, and so most of the people dont really look like how I imagined in the books.

 

Pros:

 

-The script. So far, while not an exact copy and paste job, it is VERY close. I had goosebumps when Moiraine did the speech about the turnings of the Wheel, and the wind rising etc. The slight deviations from the books havent bothered me in the slightest. It seems to me that the TV series will possibly make a bigger deal out of Logain than the books did-in book 1 we only saw him being carted to Tar Valon, looking regal despite being captured. We have already learned more about his character in his 1st episode than we did before he joined the Black Tower if memory serves.

 

-Pacing. I like that they are moving a bit faster. I like that Shadar Logoth made an early appearance and that Mat has already shown side effects of the dagger. I really liked the small point they made of making him able to see the Fade in the shadows in E4. The books didnt have this, but it felt very true to the nature of the force that is Mashadar (basically it eats the shadow). Padan Fain could tell just by looking at someone if they had thought of becoming a Darkfriend, as clearly as if they had a black mark on their forehead - it will be very interesting to see how they adapt this with Matt.

 

-Foreshadowing. There is already so much of it, in small tidbits - like Padan Fain calm amidst the chaos of Emonds Field, like Nynaeve mentioning to Egwene she might learn to listen to the wind, Logains early signs of madness yet he resists it, Rand seeing Baalzamon in the dream in E4. 

 

(So far Ive watched it with my mum and sis who didnt read the books, they think Matt is the Dragon. I said nothing!) ?  

 

Cons:

 

Not much looks like I imagined it. There is bound to be some of this with any adaptation but for example, Rand should be like 6 ft 6, and the other two lads should be taller than most also, but this is so nitpicky, it doesnt bother me too much. I can see them not making the Aiel taller than most purely because it would be hard to find the right actors etc. 

 

Im not too keen on what it looks like when they use the Power. The white tendrils are ok, but could do with looking a bit more real so to speak, but often the tendrils of the Power look like theyre coming from somewhere else, not the channeller. Also there is an awful lot of gesturing when they use the Power. Again this is to be expected to a degree and will differ with each channeller, but... Moiraine looks like she has arthritis when she warms up the bath, and she is all very swoopy and "Oh look Im a wizard" with her body language. The one thing that looks off to me was the Mashadar being a black shadow creeping along the ground. Hopefully this wont be its true form - but if it is, how will it be when Rand and Moridin cross balefires? Of course I am jumping the gun, but how can I not, its Wheel of Time!

 

The only other things I werent keen on were things like, Nynaeve casting a mass heal, which nobody could do in the original, but then again she has a Talent for healing so it does fit.

 

A friend of mine said that S1 of Wheel of Time has a bigger budget than the last season of GOT. If the budget increases per season over time, as is usual for things like this, I would be STOKED if they ironed out certain things like, make the One Power look more realistic, and make Baalzamon look a bit more menacing and not just a nightmarish image. But these are early days, and if these are my only issues then I cant really complain!

 

Overall though, before the series started I forced low expectations on myself and was PLEASANTLY SURPRISED with what they are doing with the script. If it wasnt for this I would be thinking this is going to be a Shannara esque adaptation which wont do it justice, but after watching 4 episodes I am confident they wont ruin it. They have in fact done it justice.

 

Final note: I think Moiraine and Nynaeve are the most accurate depictions so far. Apart from the fact that Moiraine has stepped out of a D&D game with her somatic spell components ?

Edited November 27, 2021 by Megatron

[Sir_Blaze]

 I have a few gripes with this show so far, yet I'm still watching it to hope it gets better. 

1) Perrin has a wife ?  and he kills her ? wth what were they thinking. Doesn't the guy go through enough already

2) Nynaeve, hasn't tugged her braid even once, and the multi braids is just worng it doesn't work and the fact they've already let it out of the tight singular braid it's sposed to be already on a couple of occasions when she's not bathing . . . so so wrong.

3) Nynaeve hasn't commented on the fact that fine 2 river woolens are good enough for anyone to wear.

4) Nynaeve seems far more restrained and dare i say demure  than what the books describe her, she's sposed to be fierce stubborn and brimming with restrained anger half the time, with a hand on her braid  nearly all the time

5) Whilst the acting has been decent from Moiraine, she doesn't give off the feeling of agelessness that users of the 1 power end out getting, she seems a bit old n haggard from it (she's sposed to look of similar age to Nynaeve not 1 looking old enough to be her mother). Also she's sposed to be dressed in finery especially at the start and a dress at that yet the clothing seems very much the same as that which is worn by the 2 rivers folk which makes her stand out less than she really should. 

6) I saw in 1 write up they're looking for an 8 season lenght, which means they're probably going to cut massive amounts from the 14 books, i mean they've already hacked loads from book 1 to the current state of episode 4. 

7) I think Rand and Matts casting have been reasonably good, as someone said Rands a tad shorter than expected but he still comes across as Rand from the books for me, as does Matt, unfortunately the actor for Matt Cauthon has been recast for season 2 so i don't know how thats going to turn out, as the current actor did remind me of the character from the books.

? I feel that Daniel Henney makes a decent Lan though i'm at the same time disapointed at the lack of comments on things, like Rand and the Heron marked sword hell Lan was teaching them all how to use the weapons they carried well before they reach Shadar Lagoth, 

9) Tom the Gleeman was sposed to be in from the get-go he should of been in Eamons Field 

 To tie this all up I was looking forward to this show once i realised they were actually going to be doing it and it wasn't going to be 1 of those that failed to start. now i wonder if it's going to make it all the way through with the changes and loose the following from the hard core book fans, i can see this going the way of Shanarra. I feel the diversity detracts from story rather than add to it, maybe because i feel the acting has been better from Rosmand Pike, Joshua Stradowski, Barny Harris, and Daniel Henney
 

[RhienneAgain]

I think the diverse casting is working out fine in the main cast, but I see your point on it being a bit jarring when you see every ethnicity in every location the characters have been in so far.

 

I wonder how the show will portray the Seanchan and Atha'an Miere?

[Agitel]

The Seanchan were an empire that spanned one to two continents and was very diverse. The Atha'an Miere were all described as dark skinned and dark haired.

[phoenixtrinity]

1 hour ago, RhienneAgain said:

I think the diverse casting is working out fine in the main cast, but I see your point on it being a bit jarring when you see every ethnicity in every location the characters have been in so far.

 

I wonder how the show will portray the Seanchan and Atha'an Miere?

I've been enjoying the diversity. Jordan's world always felt diverse and although there are certainly nitpicks to be had, overall the diversity in the show is working really well. Even my husband says it really gives the impression this fantasy world has a blend of cultures and he hasn't even read the books.

 

To that end, I'd have been more disappointed if the show only featured stereotypically Caucasion actors and actresses as I personally would have found it lore-breaking.

 

Edited November 28, 2021 by phoenixtrinity
Added an extra thought

[CaddySedai]

I have no issue with the diversity side. I don't think it has been heavy handed or otherwise.

 

I would begin to worry if the showrunners approached me and asked me to play a Seanchan, however.

 

I mean...I'd do it...

 

But...yeah ? It would make me question sanity ?

[Windigo]

15 hours ago, RhienneAgain said:

 

 

In particular, Nynaeve seems really off.  The actress seems fine (if not spectacular) with the material she has been given, but she doesn't seem like the same Nynaeve as the one from the books. 

 

Lan feels similar to me - there isn't the same feeling of stoniness, or stoicism in TV Lan.  Same with Thom - the TV character is fine, but he's not recognisable as book Thom.

 

I think it's particularly jarring as some characters do seem to have been faithfully translated from book to screen (Moiraine, Perrin, Rand) so it feels more like bad writing or not understanding some of the characters instead of the show aiming to be different on purpose.

I think some of it is likeability, with the books you could have 8 books where many readers hated Nynaeve Moiraine, Perrin or Mat, which in a show makes it harder to invest in the characters if they are boring, irritating, annoying early on, even if later they become a favorite. To me they have eliminated some of that, and the characters are more like what they are later on,

[phoenixtrinity]

In Episode 3, in the dream with Laila, the wolf is eating Laila and then she looks at Perrin and says "I know!"

 

Do we know why she said this or what it could be refering to? Is this something that could be related to the theory Laila had a miscarriage and/or their marriage was strained?

[Guire]

2 minutes ago, phoenixtrinity said:

In Episode 3, in the dream with Laila, the wolf is eating Laila and then she looks at Perrin and says "I know!"

 

Do we know why she said this or what it could be refering to? Is this something that could be related to the theory Laila had a miscarriage and/or their marriage was strained?

I assumed it was Perrin feeling guilt.   He hasn't told anyone he killed her.  So He sees her saying that she knew who killed her.

[Guire]

Something I am trying to figure out.  It's been 8 years roughly since I did a reread.  It feels like many of the characters and institutions seem less powerful.  Not sure if this is just my memory or if its been an intentional change.  Aes Sedai, Lan, warders in general seem less competant/powerful.  Is it just me?

[DojoToad]

9 minutes ago, Guire said:

Something I am trying to figure out.  It's been 8 years roughly since I did a reread.  It feels like many of the characters and institutions seem less powerful.  Not sure if this is just my memory or if its been an intentional change.  Aes Sedai, Lan, warders in general seem less competant/powerful.  Is it just me?

Not just you

[phoenixtrinity]

11 minutes ago, Guire said:

Something I am trying to figure out.  It's been 8 years roughly since I did a reread.  It feels like many of the characters and institutions seem less powerful.  Not sure if this is just my memory or if its been an intentional change.  Aes Sedai, Lan, warders in general seem less competant/powerful.  Is it just me?

 

Having read the series again last year, nothing feels too out of place to me here? I think there are slight constraints made due to the tv adaption but nothing major.

 

Side note: Rewatching Episode 3, it's implied the barmaid has had a soundproof, reinforced "storage area" for quite some time, as its not like she built it just for Rand and Mat. I may be reading too much into this, but I'm guessing this means she has used it to harm/kill others before. Interesting.

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

4 hours ago, RhienneAgain said:

I wonder how the show will portray the Seanchan and Atha'an Miere?

I have long been assuming that the sea folk will be omitted entirely (as a timesaver) as they are the most clearly dispensable plot line.  The use of multiple earrings on several TV show characters (and nose ring on Dana) which were unique to the book sea folk culture also points to this.  The only thing we have not seen is the ear to nose chains with medallions (which were only for the highest rank sea folk).

[Guire]

2 minutes ago, phoenixtrinity said:

 

Having read the series again last year, nothing feels too out of place to me here? I think there are slight constraints made due to the tv adaption but nothing major.

 

Side note: Rewatching Episode 3, it's implied the barmaid has had a soundproof, reinforced "storage area" for quite some time, as its not like she built it just for Rand and Mat. I may be reading too much into this, but I'm guessing this means she has used it to harm/kill others before. Interesting.

Oh yea that room has been used for nefarious purpose before.  

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

3 minutes ago, phoenixtrinity said:

Side note: Rewatching Episode 3, it's implied the barmaid has had a soundproof, reinforced "storage area" for quite some time, as its not like she built it just for Rand and Mat. I may be reading too much into this, but I'm guessing this means she has used it to harm/kill others before. Interesting.

Or due to this being a lawless and isolated mining settlement in remote mountains the innkeeper built a secure storage area for his valuable supplies that have to last all winter (imported wine and brandy, tabac) and uses it as a room for paying guests who want security while it is empty in spring / summer?  With the door opening outward it would be rather harder to break in than out.

 

Dana appears to be rather different from the typical ambition motivated DF, more linked to Elan Morin's philosophical motives so not likely to be into casual robbing and murder (unlike the non-DF innkeeper in the book who locks R+M in and is superseded by DF Howal Gode).  They appear to have conflated 2-3 of the boys 4 DF encounters on the road to Caemlyn into this one event.

[phoenixtrinity]

10 minutes ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

Or due to this being a lawless and isolated mining settlement in remote mountains the innkeeper built a secure storage area for his valuable supplies that have to last all winter (imported wine and brandy, tabac) and uses it as a room for paying guests who want security while it is empty in spring / summer?  With the door opening outward it would be rather harder to break in than out.

 

Dana appears to be rather different from the typical ambition motivated DF, more linked to Elan Morin's philosophical motives so not likely to be into casual robbing and murder (unlike the non-DF innkeeper in the book who locks R+M in and is superseded by DF Howal Gode).  They appear to have conflated 2-3 of the boys 4 DF encounters on the road to Caemlyn into this one event.

 

Good point about the summer storage and paying guests. I suppose I didn't think of that because when Rand says "You could use this for other paying guests" she refutes him. Plus, it doesn't look like much was stored there. I could be wrong though.

 

Another juicy bit: In the Episode 4 recap, it immediately switches from Thom saying "She's a Darkfriend, boy" (about the barmaid) to Liandrin. Very sneaky ?

[Beidomon]

It’s hard to believe we’re FOUR HOURS into this series and we “only” have four hours left of Season 1.

 

Yes, they are making a lot of mostly little changes, but overall it seems to me that the writers are doing a pretty good job of checking the boxes of the broad strokes of TEOTW.

1. Introducing the EF5, Mo, Lan.

2. Tam, Sword, Winternight.

3. Eg learns to channel.

4. Nyn is angry and distrustful and stubborn.

5. Baz hauntin’ dreams.

6. Shadar Logoth (but damn they really messed it up).

7. Mat, Rand, Thom, Darkfriends, and the Dagger.

8. Perrin, Eg, and the Tinkers.

 

And of course they’ve added….

1. Pretty much a whole episode exploring Logain, the Reds, the Greens, and the Warder bond (worth it to me). 
2. More Whitecloaks, and making them more menacing to the Aes Sedai (that’s working for me).

 

I think I only have 4 major complaints so far….

1. No prologue, but it can still work later in the series.

2. Changing the lore to DR might be a “boy or girl” - Rafe’s latest excuse of “well, maybe Moraine just doesn’t trust the prophesy” is damage control to try to appease the fans, especially after he already said they made this change to adapt the story to modern sensibilities. But hopefully the ripples will be contained when the DR is revealed this season. 

3. Guys, they really did mess up Shadar Logoth in a major way. What a let down. Major set piece - huge disappointment.

4. The show looks a bit too clean, artificial, staged. A little YA/CW. Can’t tell you why - it’s just a look.

 

There's nothing here the show can’t recover from. It has a lot of promise. The main actors are all great.

 

Since they are cutting Caemlyn, I think they should be able to round out the final major pieces of TEOTW in the final four episodes: Perrin and Eg meet the WC, Loial, TV, Ways, FD, Blight, Eye, DR.

Edited November 28, 2021 by CaddySedai
Removal of shortcuts for curses. Reminder - just because one uses stars or spells out the LETTER does not mean you didn't say it.

[Whittle]

3 hours ago, CaddySedai said:

 

I would begin to worry if the showrunners approached me and asked me to play a Seanchan, however.

 

I mean...I'd do it...

I’m from Alabama so of course I’d do it. My accent would be perfect.

[Arie]

5 minutes ago, Beidomon said:

It’s hard to believe we’re FOUR HOURS into this series and we “only” have four hours left of Season 1.

....

 Please edit for language. ? Thanks!