Expectations for Combat in the series

[SinisterDeath]

3 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

Just look at Anakin ?

Which part(s)?

[Elder_Haman]

[DaddyFinn]

 

 

This fight is overall great. At least until they get to those platforms

 

[Elder_Haman]

Stay on topic. Stay on topic. (In voice of Gold Leader)

[Ralph]

2 hours ago, Gothic Flame said:

A person with a heron marked sword is supposed to be an immense threat.

Rand entering the presence of Morgase went from a perceived country bumpkin by her guards, to such a threat, so much so they thought they'd die in a futile attempt trying to protect her.

 

 

Sorry, I don't see what this is responding to. What point are you making here? 

 

1 hour ago, DojoToad said:

Except to White Cloaks (Baerlon before he was careful to hide it) and Liandrin (despite having the herons wrapped)...

He deliberately showed it to the WC, prob part of his !Channeling reaction. And do you mean Elaida? She went and looked closely. 

I would also guess moved to later. We haven't yet had any of the heron mark lore

[Ralph]

On 12/7/2021 at 12:42 PM, Maximillion said:

I am expecting the battle scenes to be bigger than a few people fighting in a forest.

Will be interesting to see how they do them on screen.

 

 

This one was meant to be the remaining rabble of untrained soldiers who hadn't run home to their mothers. I thought that was part of the point - that there was no threat at all really until Logain broke free at the same time

[KakitaOCU]

33 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

100% agree.

 

I bring it up a lot but... What made me stop watching "The Sword of Truth" series was Richard constantly jumping down from highground (or even just jumping off of flat ground!) to overhead chop at the enemy... Like... it's one thing if they don't see you... but they did, they saw it coming. If someone's jumping from a high place, and you see them.... you step to the side, then stab them in the kidney.

General rule of thumb, ridiculous, unrealistic and unworkable moves can be okay if they look cool.  IF you either lampshade how ridiculous they are or you don't do anything to draw attention to how ridiculous they are.

Example of doing it right IMO: Troy.  Brad Pitt's Side leap shoulder stab.  It looks cool, he tries it twice and it works once, the other time his opponent just blocks it.  And he doesn't try it again.  So it's clearly an intimidation tactic with flair and not a lot of substance and Achilles knows it.

Example of doing it bad on accident:  A lot of people love Dual of the Fates in Phantom Menace.  I did originally, it's theatric, it's fun, it's fast paced...  And then in an interview Ray Park bragged about how he personally choreographed the fight and there was not a single opening anywhere in it...  And I can't help but notice the fight should ended repeatedly in the first thirty seconds with both Maul and Obiwan dead.   Fight was fantastic until something deliberately challenged my brain to find the gaps.

[DojoToad]

2 minutes ago, Ralph said:

 

Sorry, I don't see what this is responding to. What point are you making here? 

 

He deliberately showed it to the WC, prob part of his !Channeling reaction. And do you mean Elaida? She went and looked closely. 

I would also guess moved to later. We haven't yet had any of the heron mark lore

Yes, I meant Elaida.  Thanks.

 

No heron-mark lore yet - this would have been something Lan noticed and commented on, but...

[Ralph]

1 minute ago, DojoToad said:

Yes, I meant Elaida.  Thanks.

 

No heron-mark lore yet - this would have been something Lan noticed and commented on, but...

It was deliberately brought into focus in Tam's fight, and in the extra info, so def coming

[DojoToad]

4 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

Example of doing it bad on accident:  A lot of people love Dual of the Fates in Phantom Menace.  I did originally, it's theatric, it's fun, it's fast paced...  And then in an interview Ray Park bragged about how he personally choreographed the fight and there was not a single opening anywhere in it...  And I can't help but notice the fight should ended repeatedly in the first thirty seconds with both Maul and Obiwan dead.   Fight was fantastic until something deliberately challenged my brain to find the gaps.

Damnit!  I loved that scene.  Now I have to watch it again and look for the gaps - if I can bring myself to watch that movie again...

[DojoToad]

Just now, Ralph said:

It was deliberately brought into focus in Tam's fight, and in the extra info, so def coming

For sure, just wonder why it would take them so long.  It would be like someone wearing a blackbelt in our world - we would know what it means (or think we know).

[DaddyFinn]

45 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Stay on topic. Stay on topic. (In voice of Gold Leader)

Just posting an example of a well coreographed fight ? sorry ?

[king of nowhere]

i disagree that the fight was well coreographed. obi wan and luke were spinning the words around a lot, they did several spins where they put their backs to the opponent. it's exactly what i don't want to see.

and in wot i never saw it; even in the much-criticized battle, the few sword moves seen have no glaring problems.

on the plus side, the star wars scene the moves are fast enough that it's not too obvious. i rate it adequate

[KakitaOCU]

17 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

i disagree that the fight was well coreographed. obi wan and luke were spinning the words around a lot, they did several spins where they put their backs to the opponent. it's exactly what i don't want to see.

and in wot i never saw it; even in the much-criticized battle, the few sword moves seen have no glaring problems.

on the plus side, the star wars scene the moves are fast enough that it's not too obvious. i rate it adequate

Yes, as a whole Lightsabre combat is stupid and would get you killed, But when I said good fight, I didn't mean realistic, I meant enjoyable, fun and entertaining.  That line will move for some people.  For me, training aside, I can make my brain not worry about the realism aspect so long as nothing forces me to.

 

[DojoToad]

25 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

i disagree that the fight was well coreographed. obi wan and luke were spinning the words around a lot, they did several spins where they put their backs to the opponent. it's exactly what i don't want to see.

and in wot i never saw it; even in the much-criticized battle, the few sword moves seen have no glaring problems.

on the plus side, the star wars scene the moves are fast enough that it's not too obvious. i rate it adequate

Turning backs to opponents is not a problem when using the Force - Look at Luke wearing the helmet with the blast shield down against the remote in A New Hope.

 

The scene in Phantom Menace had a fully trained Jedi and nearly fully trained apprentice against a very capable Sith.  Using the Force gives them eyes everywhere - so the realism wasn't broken for me.

 

But back to Randland...  More in the vein of where @KakitaOCU was coming from - the Warder battle in episode 4 was not entertaining for me, I wouldn't even rate it adequate.  Whereas Darth Maul against the Jedi was extremely entertaining for me.  Different strokes for different folks I guess.

[DaddyFinn]

45 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

spins where they put their backs to the opponent. it's exactly what i don't want to see.

Spins are not too bad if they guard their back and body during it

[DojoToad]

49 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

Spins are not too bad if they guard their back and body during it

And you made need to spin against multiple opponents.  Though I hope I'm never in that situation - lacking both Jedi and Warder skills.

[flinn]

 I liked the fights in Witcher. I like the battles in The Last Kingdom as well as the individual fights. I liked the fight between Achilles and Hector in Troy.

[JaimAybara]

I’m wondering too if they can make exceptions to ratings for single episodes. Dumai’s Wells in later seasons is…

Spoiler

straight up a Saving Private Ryan level bloodbath. They literally start pink misting entire bodies as they walk forward. Kinda hard to do that without having less restrictive ratings. I know Robert Jordan wasn’t overly descriptive of things that were gruesome, but there are some parts that are still pretty darn graphic. Exploding body parts etc.

As to sword fights and swordplay: I really hope they incorporate different styles of swords and forms. I’m not sure how likely that is but I think it would make the world feel bigger too. Such a minor change, but it can have a positive ripple effect in world building. If everyone from Tear used a certain type of blade vs those from Tar Valon or Caemlyn. 
 

Some really fun sword fights to watch are with Errol Flynn and Basil Rathbone. They were actually quite accomplished swordsmen. I think if anything I would blame the film techniques of the time as well as the wardrobe, but watching them fight was quite the show.

 

Elder Haman knows I’m all about the heron marks, so it was nice to see the emblem on the sheath, but at the same time it makes me concerned for a potential reveal of one under the grip’s hand wraps. That would mean there are three herons on the sword / sheath total and I’m not sure they will go that far, but it is nice that it is being teased enough to viewers to point out its importance. This is a win. And fingers crossed it’s still there. 

Edited December 8, 2021 by JaimAybara
Spelling*

[2RiversFan]

2 minutes ago, JaimAybara said:

I’m wondering too if they can make exceptions to ratings for single episodes. Dumai’s Wells in later seasons is…

I _think_ they can, simply making the introduction to the episode say that there is graphic violence.  They do that for some shows on TV with ads when there is a more mature subject matter.  I know less about how it works/what the rules are for a streamer.

Dumai's Wells will lose ALOT if they don't make people's stomach turn while watching.  The book description did that to me with the descriptions of people exploding.

[Guire]

Some thoughts.  They need to get some military people in the writers room to consult.  

 

Ep 4 quote from my wife.  "So they are moving a high value captive that was just kidnapped from a group of insurgents.  Why is all the security grab assing around the fire." 

 

Not having the Tower guards be at all present is one of those weird things that kind of makes certain scenes feel like cheap tv.  By my count we have 4 Reds, 4 Greens, 1 Blue, and about 8 Warders.  The Captain General of the Green Ajah Kerene Nagashi would never go on a military operation without soldiers. Even in Tar Valon we get this weird 3 woman unarmed drum corp instead of soldiers.  None of the Warders even appeared to be scouting perimeter.  From Fire scene count it looked like all were present then retired to tents.  

 

Once first/second seasons are over the main story will be about consolidating power in a march to a world war. Boys literally building armies and Girls engaged in espionage, weapons acquisition, and political intrigue.  Having Nyn stab everyone and funky wig hippies needs to be long in the rear view mirror. I have avoided commenting lately on characterization and presentation of male characters in story.  However the books are about lots of old soldiers in a story written by an old soldier.  When most of the old soldiers are not acting like old soldiers it is strange.  

[Daenelia]

10 hours ago, JaimAybara said:

[...]

 

Some really fun sword fights to watch are with Errol Flynn and Basil Rathbone. They were actually quite accomplished swordsmen. I think if anything I would blame the film techniques of the time as well as the wardrobe, but watching them fight was quite the show.

 

[..]

Oh Errol Flynn was awesome! OMG. But ... I was equally entertained by the dance sequence of a simulated fight in The Pirate (Gene Kelly) who just dances around waving a sort of curved sword. Ridiculously. But omg, how well done.

Again, dancing, choreographed fighting: it's all visuals for me.

 

As for the Heron marked blade: sure that is coming in the next few episodes. It's too integral and too cool not to mention, but the time has not been right. I think if they had expositioned it earlier, they would have had to give away more of Tam's backstory too soon.

[DojoToad]

11 hours ago, JaimAybara said:

As to sword fights and swordplay: I really hope they incorporate different styles of swords and forms. I’m not sure how likely that is but I think it would make the world feel bigger too. Such a minor change, but it can have a positive ripple effect in world building. If everyone from Tear used a certain type of blade vs those from Tar Valon or Caemlyn. 

But that would not be inclusive if all the swords from the same region looked the same.  After all, the Breaking mixed everything up...

[Daenelia]

Even in history there was a lot of variation in weapons (swords), in a region. There were no cookie cutter assembly lines. And outlandish weapons were available.

 

It's easy to think evertything was homogenes in the past... but it seriously was not ?

[JaimAybara]

3 hours ago, Daenelia said:

Even in history there was a lot of variation in weapons (swords), in a region. There were no cookie cutter assembly lines. And outlandish weapons were available.

 

It's easy to think evertything was homogenes in the past... but it seriously was not ?

I understand this, especially after a battle a victor was likely to take weapons, armour, and the like as spoils of war or trophies or to sell etc. Nevertheless, stylistically, regions would have their own flare similar to that of clothing. (Tar Valon has shown the stylistic diversity pretty well with the clothing of the sisters on full display. This proving they maintain their distinct cultures even after leaving to go to Tar Valon, but Tar Valon out of all of them makes more sense as a melting pot since they draw from so many places for their Aes Sedai.) but I’m still not convinced this would apply for their standardized armies or the standardized armies of other places. If someone asks for an Ancient Japanese sword they expect a certain style that is clearly distinct from an English long sword, or an Arabian Scimitar, or a Chinese Broadsword, and so on. It will be a bit of a bummer if all of the heron marked blades are only katanas. The idea that the heron is a universal symbol for blademaster would be cool though. Not to mention in the last battle I'm pretty sure they reference in some of the duels that they use similar but distinct forms from one another since the forsaken are so old and they smugly condescend to their opponents“ Are there no true swordsmen in this age”, or something of the like I can find direct quotes later if you want I’m functioning off of memory at the moment. Regardless, I think we might get this or at least partially because the armor in Shienar is distinctly different from the Whitecloaks and the soldiers in Ghealdan etc. Even though many in Logain’s army were a bit ragtag I’m thinking of the king and the kings-guard specifically. I want this to carry over into weapons too, I think it will be cool to see more variations of weapons culturally but then have preferred styles within said culture. That might just be me though. I mean heck even in modern armies where we are less homogenous than ever before due to the ease of travel, we have very distinct weapons of choice for different militaries that are more standardized. Russia has AK variants, the us has M4 variants, and the Germans probably still use an HK platform. I don’t even have to look these things up and yes I’m making assumptions but these assumptions are largely due to cultural norms from each military, and I think armies would likely want a more standardized weapon system or uniformity because then they could teach their soldiers all the same maneuvers and styles of fighting to function better as a unit /  be a more effective fighting force, regardless of the technological era. Even if an army had sections of pole-arms and a section of swordsmen, archers, etc, there would still likely be more uniformity than not in my opinion regarding weapons within each section of an army. We get a little bit of this again with the borderlanders all taking aim with similar crossbows. Anyway, I like stuff like that. 

Edited December 9, 2021 by JaimAybara