How did the show hold up for you?

[WhiteVeils]

I've been working on writing a fanfiction that is intended to just achieve the following goals:

1. Maintain as many of the visuals, character dynamics, and scenes as I can
2. Combine the content of Book 2 and 3 and as much of 4 as fits
3. Ends the characters in the same emotional place in their arc as they are at the end of book 3
4. Starts where Season 1 left off.
5. Using as few different locations as possible (in a show each location is exorbitantly expensive)
6. Making things more visual rather than just done through thoughts.
7. Having the story actually make sense as written.

 

Basically, Rafe's task if he were trying to stay as close to the books as possible, but without the constraints he suffers by having to use no thoughts whatsoever, make each individual episode its own story, keeping it within 8 hours of television, making sure you don't introduce too many characters at once, and so on.

You have to make a lot of changes. You have to add scenes, absolutely...even scenes that don't seem necessary.  You have to set up stuff earlier for later.  Why is Lanfear meeting Barthanes?  What is this scene with Verin and Mat?  It's not a matter of trimming it down alone.  

[nsmallw]

On 4/17/2022 at 3:10 PM, RGD 675 said:

Have you thought about how badly the writers are going to have to omit from the books or outright make up more lies since they began lying from the start? ie. Perrins character? He wasn't married, didn't kill his wife, accidentally or otherwise, didn't have a beard, wasn't the village blacksmith, merely an apprentice, etc. How are they going to write Faile into future episodes? Just make up even more lies? Why base the series on the WOT at all?  

Every major character has been twisted into someone else.

It's barely recognizable and the casting is way off. RJ was quite specific in describing everyone.

GOT at least stayed mostly true to the written word. This series I just see an endless series of future lies.

Perrin didn't have a beard ? Really. Your griping about that ? 

Wow.

[SinisterDeath]

On 4/12/2022 at 5:38 AM, Maximillion said:

Dust has settled on Season 1.

I tried watching it again to see if the expectation of what it should be coloured my opinion of what it was.

Can say it didn't.  The show is just bad.

Terrible directing and story telling.

Poor special effects and most of all, really poor character development.

I read somewhere that season 2 may not air until 2023.   It may be that Amazon has decided to let a significant time pass so people somewhat forget Season 1 and can start with some renewed optimism.  I hope someone has reined in Rafe Judkins because if Season 2 is his story (as Season 1 was), it's going to be the same rubbish.

 

That argument doesn't hold any water.
If you apply that same logic to the shows "The Boys" or "Invincible", two shows that did phenomenally well, it completely fails to stand up to reality that Amazon has shitty release schedules and has nothing to do with getting the audience to "forget" about the previous season.

The Boys 

• Season 1 premiered July, 2019
• Season 2 premiered September 2020
• *The Boys Presents: Diabolical - March 2022
• Season 3 premieres June 2022

Invincible

• Season 1 premiered March 2021
• Season 2 premieres ???? 20??

The Wilds

• Season 1 premiered December 2020
• Season 2 premieres May 2022

[DojoToad]

3 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

That argument doesn't hold any water.
If you apply that same logic to the shows "The Boys" or "Invincible", two shows that did phenomenally well, it completely fails to stand up to reality that Amazon has shitty release schedules and has nothing to do with getting the audience to "forget" about the previous season.

The Boys 

• Season 1 premiered July, 2019
• Season 2 premiered September 2020
• *The Boys Presents: Diabolical - March 2022
• Season 3 premieres June 2022

Invincible

• Season 1 premiered March 2021
• Season 2 premieres ???? 20??

The Wilds

• Season 1 premiered December 2020
• Season 2 premieres May 2022

Agreed.  In the age of streaming, the show will stand or fall on its own merits.  I certainly won't forget season 1.

[Juan Farstrider]

5 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

Dust has settled on Season 1.

I tried watching it again to see if the expectation of what it should be coloured my opinion of what it was.

Can say it didn't.  The show is just bad.

Terrible directing and story telling.

Poor special effects and most of all, really poor character development.

Interesting that you bold a portion of @Maximillion's post, SinisterDeath, and then start your post with "that argument doesn't hold water. But what I quoted above was the only argument in Maximillion's post. That part you focused on and bolded was clearly stated as speculation, not argument. Especially in a thread about how well the show held up, speculation about delays or reason for them can't really be "THE" argument being made here.  The argument dealt with direction, storytelling, special effects and character development. 

@Dojotoad, in agreeing that the argument doesn't hold water, you are also confusing the actual argument with speculation that had nothing to do with the argument. You are essentially agreeing to miss the point made. 

[DojoToad]

2 minutes ago, Juan Farstrider said:

Interesting that you bold a portion of @Maximillion's post, SinisterDeath, and then start your post with "that argument doesn't hold water. But what I quoted above was the only argument in Maximillion's post. That part you focused on and bolded was clearly stated as speculation, not argument. Especially in a thread about how well the show held up, speculation about delays or reason for them can't really be "THE" argument being made here.  The argument dealt with direction, storytelling, special effects and character development. 

@Dojotoad, in agreeing that the argument doesn't hold water, you are also confusing the actual argument with speculation that had nothing to do with the argument. You are essentially agreeing to miss the point made. 

I didn't miss @Maximillion's points.  I was agreeing with @SinisterDeath's point that speculation they were hoping people would forget how terrible season 1 was didn't hold water.

 

But as you know, I do think the show was terrible - writing, character development, etc.

[SinisterDeath]

22 minutes ago, Juan Farstrider said:

Interesting that you bold a portion of @Maximillion's post, SinisterDeath, and then start your post with "that argument doesn't hold water. But what I quoted above was the only argument in Maximillion's post. That part you focused on and bolded was clearly stated as speculation, not argument. Especially in a thread about how well the show held up, speculation about delays or reason for them can't really be "THE" argument being made here.  The argument dealt with direction, storytelling, special effects and character development. 

@Dojotoad, in agreeing that the argument doesn't hold water, you are also confusing the actual argument with speculation that had nothing to do with the argument. You are essentially agreeing to miss the point made. 

Because my reply was in response to only the bolded part of Maximillion's post. 

What you quoted, wasn't an "argument" it was an opinion.
Why would I argue whether @Maximillion liked the show? 

 

"NO! You loved the show Maximillion! Don't you lie to us!"
That kind of reply would be petty and absurd.

 

14 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

I didn't miss @Maximillion's points.  I was agreeing with @SinisterDeath's point that speculation they were hoping people would forget how terrible season 1 was didn't hold water.

 

But as you know, I do think the show was terrible - writing, character development, etc.

Exactly.

I may not agree that the show was 100% terrible, which is why I didn't respond to anything else except that one line in the post.

[CaddySedai]

*peers*
 

Let’s dial it down to like…. a four please. 

[DojoToad]

4 hours ago, CaddySedai said:

*peers*
 

Let’s dial it down to like…. a four please. 

What are we at now?  ?

[CaddySedai]

1 hour ago, DojoToad said:

What are we at now?  ?

8.327

[Jaccsen]

The show did not hold up at all for me. I love the novels. I did not watch beyond episode 6. The vast majority of season 1 was completely made up by the writers. They spent whole episodes on items that never happened or had minor footnotes to the whole story.

 

I really did not want to see someone's homebrew version of WoT. It was slightly better than Legend of the Seeker although at least I enjoyed Legend as the actors were fairly good.

[SinisterDeath]

41 minutes ago, Jaccsen said:

I really did not want to see someone's homebrew version of WoT. It was slightly better than Legend of the Seeker although at least I enjoyed Legend as the actors were fairly good.

To each their own but;

 

[Jaccsen]

17 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

To each their own but;

 

I am not saying the Wheel of Time actors are bad but the show spends no time with them and does not develop the characters of anyone other than Morraine. The cast has very little to do so there was zero investment in them.

[WoTwasThat]

I haven’t popped by in several months now. Season 1 left such a bad taste in my mouth. To me, it boils down to two big problems.
 

First, putting the content aside, the show looks fake, staged, overproduced. Everything is too clean. The world doesn’t look real and lived in. It is distracting. It looks like a young adult production. Not being any sort of industry expert, I can’t say why this is, but I guess maybe cinematography might be to blame?

 

I was reminded of this while watching The Last Kingdom on Netflix last night. There are so many shows, produced for far less money, that had no issue getting a realistic look. WOT’s look is just terrible. (And the music stinks, too. Mostly just ominous tone stuff).

 

Second is the writing. I loved Books 1-6. And I didn’t expect those to be translated faithfully to the screen. I even liked some of the additions (Logain) and understood some of the cuts (Caemlyn). But Rafe made major thematic alterations in order to supposedly “update” the material “for modern sensibilities.” Ditching the Saidar/Saidin gender dichotomy and allowing the DR to possibly wield Saidar was just a horrifically dumb decision.

 

One of the great things about WOT is the gender dichotomy and the bevy of strong female characters. But Rafe and Amazon clearly decided to put a major focus on the ladies to the expense of the dudes. The men feel more like plot devices while Eg and Nyn do one staggering (and nonsensical at this stage) thing after another. 
 

So the folks who loved WOT because of the strong female characters (as Rafe clearly did) will likely enjoy this show. But I loved WOT for the classic Rand “hero’s journey” and I really get the vibe that this isn’t the angle Rafe and Amazon are going for. 

 

And then there is what they did to Eye of the World. They had Eight Hours to tell like 2/3rds of one book. And they failed miserably. EOtW had 4 major set pieces: Winternight, Shadar Logoth, the Ways, and the Eye. They did right by Wintersnight, completely shortchanged Shadar Logoth and the Ways, and totally BUTCHERED the journey into the Blight and the Eye. My god, that last episode just makes me shudder how horrifically terrible it was.

 

Rafe wants to tell a story, but it isn’t THE story. At best, this is “a different turning of the wheel” and “inspired by the Wheel of Time.” 

 

I’ve seen enough to realize this cannot be salvaged. 

Edited April 29, 2022 by WoTwasThat

[DaddyFinn]

31 minutes ago, WoTwasThat said:

First, putting the content aside, the show looks fake, staged, overproduced. Everything is too clean. The world doesn’t look real and lived in. It is distracting. It looks like a young adult production. Not being any sort of industry expert, I can’t say why this is, but I guess maybe cinematography might be to blame?

One thing they could be doing (I hope so) is start with a clean look because the world is not touched strongly by the Dark One. As the series goes on it becomes more and more gritty, grimy, dark etc. and that can be played with as Rand affects the world and goes downhill/uphill mentally.

[DojoToad]

7 hours ago, WoTwasThat said:

I haven’t popped by in several months now. Season 1 left such a bad taste in my mouth. To me, it boils down to two big problems.
 

First, putting the content aside, the show looks fake, staged, overproduced. Everything is too clean. The world doesn’t look real and lived in. It is distracting. It looks like a young adult production. Not being any sort of industry expert, I can’t say why this is, but I guess maybe cinematography might be to blame?

 

I was reminded of this while watching The Last Kingdom on Netflix last night. There are so many shows, produced for far less money, that had no issue getting a realistic look. WOT’s look is just terrible. (And the music stinks, too. Mostly just ominous tone stuff).

 

Second is the writing. I loved Books 1-6. And I didn’t expect those to be translated faithfully to the screen. I even liked some of the additions (Logain) and understood some of the cuts (Caemlyn). But Rafe made major thematic alterations in order to supposedly “update” the material “for modern sensibilities.” Ditching the Saidar/Saidin gender dichotomy and allowing the DR to possibly wield Saidar was just a horrifically dumb decision.

 

One of the great things about WOT is the gender dichotomy and the bevy of strong female characters. But Rafe and Amazon clearly decided to put a major focus on the ladies to the expense of the dudes. The men feel more like plot devices while Eg and Nyn do one staggering (and nonsensical at this stage) thing after another. 
 

So the folks who loved WOT because of the strong female characters (as Rafe clearly did) will likely enjoy this show. But I loved WOT for the classic Rand “hero’s journey” and I really get the vibe that this isn’t the angle Rafe and Amazon are going for. 

 

And then there is what they did to Eye of the World. They had Eight Hours to tell like 2/3rds of one book. And they failed miserably. EOtW had 4 major set pieces: Winternight, Shadar Logoth, the Ways, and the Eye. They did right by Wintersnight, completely shortchanged Shadar Logoth and the Ways, and totally BUTCHERED the journey into the Blight and the Eye. My god, that last episode just makes me shudder how horrifically terrible it was.

 

Rafe wants to tell a story, but it isn’t THE story. At best, this is “a different turning of the wheel” and “inspired by the Wheel of Time.” 

 

I’ve seen enough to realize this cannot be salvaged. 

Very well written. Thank you for your thoughts.
 

I’d seen enough after 4 episodes to realize S1 couldn’t be salvaged. Still hoping S2 can be better, but doubt it if Rafe and writers remain the same - as far as I know, they have. 

[WoTwasThat]

11 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

One thing they could be doing (I hope so) is start with a clean look because the world is not touched strongly by the Dark One. As the series goes on it becomes more and more gritty, grimy, dark etc. and that can be played with as Rand affects the world and goes downhill/uphill mentally.

Maybe. They can try to dirty things up, but something tells me it’s still going to look very fake and staged and young adult unless they change out a lot of folks behind the lens. It’s tough because I cannot explain why it looks staged or how to fix it - but I can just see it.

[WoTwasThat]

7 hours ago, DojoToad said:

Very well written. Thank you for your thoughts.
 

I’d seen enough after 4 episodes to realize S1 couldn’t be salvaged. Still hoping S2 can be better, but doubt it if Rafe and writers remain the same - as far as I know, they have. 

I think Rafe’s answer in this Comic Con interview last year speaks volumes about the story he wants to tell…. 
 

Quote

Q: Take us back to your origin story with this project. What your personal connection to Robert Jordan’s epic story and why was this particular project one that wanted or felt you needed to be involved in?

 

A: The WOT was actually something I read when I was younger with my mom. It was this book series that sort of connected us to each other especially after I came out of the closet. It was this thing that led us to each see what it’s like to be a person who’s different in the world. You know, her as a woman in a Mormon family, um, and me as this little gay kid in Utah - like we could connect over this book and the women who were inside of it who had to be themselves in this world that was very different.

That’s all well and good. The book certainly has many strong female characters, and I can understand why these characters and themes of social isolation would resonate with Rafe and other WOT readers. And if you look at WOT through that lens then Season 1 starts to make a lot more sense!

 

BUT, if this is the story Rafe wants to tell, or the lens through which Rafe wants to tell the story, that’s not the WOT that resonated with me. My WOT centered on Rand’s hero’s journey and the complex mythology of the magic system and Ages.

 

So I just don’t think WOTTV is going to get better - for me - because this showrunner didn’t take away the same story from WOT that I did. Not even close.

Edited April 29, 2022 by WoTwasThat

[WhiteVeils]

11 minutes ago, WoTwasThat said:

So I just don’t think WOTTV is going to get better because this showrunner didn’t take away the same story from WOT that I did. Not even close.

 

That does kind of make it sound like the show not matching your personal interpretation of the series is what makes it bad to you.  Which is a take, I guess?

[Raal Gurniss]

1 hour ago, WhiteVeils said:

 

 

13 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

One thing they could be doing (I hope so) is start with a clean look because the world is not touched strongly by the Dark One. As the series goes on it becomes more and more gritty, grimy, dark etc. and that can be played with as Rand affects the world and goes downhill/uphill mentally.

Possibly...Although far more likely is that it simply doesn't have the production values to allow for that level of detail.

 

 

Edited April 29, 2022 by Raal Gurniss
Editing

[DojoToad]

It is not a matter of interpretation for me - at least I don't think so.  I definitely got something much different out of it than Rafe did, so that is perhaps part of it.

 

But the writing, filming, and changes are a much bigger part.

 

Rafe has the reins, so I just need to be off the stagecoach.  Still enjoy talking to you all though.  Gives me more stuff to think about when I next go through the books.

[Raal Gurniss]

On 4/25/2022 at 2:58 PM, Jaccsen said:

I am not saying the Wheel of Time actors are bad but the show spends no time with them and does not develop the characters of anyone other than Morraine. The cast has very little to do so there was zero investment in them.

I don't blame the actors, they did the best with what they were given to work with.

[WoTwasThat]

33 minutes ago, Raal Gurniss said:

I don't blame the actors, they did the best with what they were given to work with.

Agreed. I liked nearly all of the casting decisions, and I think the actors are doing the best with what they’ve got. I’m sure that goes for the vast majority of folks involved in the production. This seems like a top-down problem from Amazon/Rafe and some of the folks who are lighting/staging/shooting the scenes.

 

The latter can be fixed. There’s no changing the former, and look, I have to concede that this new story/framing appeals to a portion of the audience. Just not me. 

[WoTwasThat]

1 hour ago, WhiteVeils said:

 

That does kind of make it sound like the show not matching your personal interpretation of the series is what makes it bad to you.  Which is a take, I guess?

Yup, it’s my take. And if WOTTV aligns more closely with what you enjoyed about WOT, then that’s good for you.

[Ryrin]

On 4/29/2022 at 6:49 AM, WoTwasThat said:

Maybe. They can try to dirty things up, but something tells me it’s still going to look very fake and staged and young adult unless they change out a lot of folks behind the lens. It’s tough because I cannot explain why it looks staged or how to fix it - but I can just see it.

I had the same impression but just couldn’t put my finger on it the way you have. 

 

The disappointment runs deep. I had such high hopes for the show.