2 Minute IGN exclusive clip Moiraine/Nynaeve

[Ralph]

4 minutes ago, Deadsy said:

 

 

Um. No.

I was arguing that the wisdom couldn't channel, or she was turned away for another reason, or was lying to Nynaeve. Or it's bad writing in the show.

 

Yes

 

And it is clear in the books :

1) that she said the best could channel, including Nynaeve. This implies she could herself. 

2) that she was the oldest woman in the village and possibly the whole Two Rivers. Probably because of slowing, like Nynaeve. 

3) that she chose two pupils who could channel, which is likely because she could feel the spark in them. 

 

Therefore it is likely that she could channel, ie listen to the wind

 

And to answer your question, I would suggest that the more one channels the greater the slowing. So a Wisdom who just listens to the wind may live to a very old age, but not something unheard of. 

[TheDreadReader]

I really like this scene.  ?

 

There's a few technical quirks in it that hopefully are taken care of in the real episode.

 

The "changes" add value to me rather than take anything away from the source.  You get a good easily understood explanation for why Nyn doesn't trust the Aes Sedai and one that can inform her decision to go after the others later.  And, the conversation that Nyn thinks she's having isn't the conversation that Moiraine is having.

 

 

[Elder_Haman]

1 hour ago, Katherine said:

Again… these changes make no sense to me. 
 

you know I take my dog for walks… And she’ll walk in to somebody else’s yard and smell their dog and she’ll smell it for a minute and then Peein the yard to cover the dog’s original scent with her new scent. It’s sort of feels like what Ralph Jenkins is doing this here with all these characters and their backstory …… just marking his territory for no reason other than to mark it. 
 

I really am fine with all the changes with Mat and Perrin so far. They make sense to me. I don’t get this one. 

Have you seen it yet? Or are you just going off what you've heard?

[WhiteVeils]

The question was asked: Why have this change to Nynaeve's backstory?

Answer:  In TEOTW, Nynaeve often comes across as somewhat bitchy and ungrateful, because she is, essentially, really angry at Moiraine for saving the village and the Emond's Fielders.  There are reasons for it, in Nynaeve's mind, but remember in a show, we can't see what Nynaeve is really thinking. If she just acts angry at Moraine for only the reasons given in the book, the character would come off even more irrational and just angry to be angry.
This backstory is giving her a reason to be angry at Aes Sedai, and a reason to be both Angry at them and wanting to be one at the same time, both of which mirror her sentiments from the book.  It seems a very justifiable change to me.

Spoiler

Without a longer clip, I can't tell why her foster mother was rejected from the tower, but I can think of a few reasons.  The biggest one, though, while not from the books, seems legitimate to me, which is that it is just as Nynaeve said...she shows up unexpectantly and in an unplanned fashion at the White Tower, and there is no 'formalized' way of greeting prospective novices since normally they are recruited (we will see recruiting later in the season I bet).  While there, she runs into an Aes Sedai in the city or at the tower gates who sees her looking utterly poor and yokel and unkempt, and the woman dismisses her out of hand and sends her away.   Remember, at that point in the tower, there are /hundreds/ of black ajah who can be all sorts of elitist and not interested in what is good for the Tower.  Who want the tower to be weak.  Turning away a clearly strong-willed girl who happened to come from a poor background, like the newly raised Amerylian Seat, to save them from the trouble of dealing with her in the future, sounds like a perfectly reasonable explanation, even without Nynaeve's role as an unreliable narrator of what happened.

 

Edited November 18, 2021 by WhiteVeils

[Deadsy]

1 hour ago, Ralph said:

 

Yes

 

And it is clear in the books :

1) that she said the best could channel, including Nynaeve. This implies she could herself. 

2) that she was the oldest woman in the village and possibly the whole Two Rivers. Probably because of slowing, like Nynaeve. 

3) that she chose two pupils who could channel, which is likely because she could feel the spark in them. 

 

Therefore it is likely that she could channel, ie listen to the wind

 

And to answer your question, I would suggest that the more one channels the greater the slowing. So a Wisdom who just listens to the wind may live to a very old age, but not something unheard of. 

 

 

I feel you're misunderstanding me. I was saying "no" to the idea I was talking about the book writing being poor.

 

I am saying it's bad writing in the show to say she was turned away for being poor, unless she was lying or was misled. I'm literally only talking about the options in the TV show.

Edited November 18, 2021 by Deadsy

[Agitel]

2 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

Answer:  In TEOTW, Nynaeve often comes across as somewhat bitchy and ungrateful, because she is, essentially, really angry at Moiraine for saving the village and the Emond's Fielders.  

 

I feel like this is a really bad reading of Nynaeve. She has heard tales of Aes Sedai manipulation. She's largely right in her suspicion of Aes Sedai weaving people into their webs (see: Siuan and the wonder girls) and that what an Aes Sedai says isn't always true in the way you think. She doesn't trust Moiraine because she absconds with four young adults with nary a word in the middle of the night after a vicious attack on her village, and when the Women's Circle and Village Council are stuck debating she takes the brave initiative to go out alone to get them back. Any adult who reads TEOTW should really see where Nynaeve is coming from, imo.

 

Edited November 18, 2021 by Agitel

[flinn]

 I think we will find out that while she could channel she was too weak. That hurt her pride so she claimed it was because she was a peasant instead of telling people she was weak. That builds a backstory for Nynaeve to hate Aes Sedai but eventually finding out the truth as she comes closer and closer to becoming an Aes Sedai as well.

[Katherine]

2 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

 

41 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Have you seen it yet? Or are you just going off what you've heard?

I saw the clip. 
 

I don’t like the change, because.. as of right now… it seems like a change with no purpose. PERSONALLY I don’t care for those. It bothers me, but won’t bother other people…. Which is more than fine. 

[TheMountain]

After watching the first two episodes and being generally happy with what I saw, I think they missed the mark with Nynaeve. She comes across as way too rational and in control of her emotions. None of the hilarious temper and warped thinking that when combined with her good qualities made her such a fan favorite (much in the same way that Mat is also a fan-favorite with his vices and inner monologue). More "momma bear" than anything else. As somebody else here said, just an everyday village wisdom that occasionally kicks butt when she has to. Not really compelling... yet.

Edited November 18, 2021 by TheMountain

[zacz1987]

1 hour ago, TheMountain said:

After watching the first two episodes and being generally happy with what I saw, I think they missed the mark with Nynaeve. She comes across as way too rational and in control of her emotions. None of the hilarious temper and warped thinking that when combined with her good qualities made her such a fan favorite (much in the same way that Mat is also a fan-favorite with his vices and inner monologue). More "momma bear" than anything else. As somebody else here said, just an everyday village wisdom that occasionally kicks butt when she has to. Not really compelling... yet.

 

I have only seen the previews and from what I've seen I agree that she controls her emotions a little to well but we'll see. I hope we see some iconic Nynaeve dialogue from the books like 'I do not have a temper' Nynaeve bellowed and 'I am not shouting' screamed Nynaeve.

[Ralph]

4 hours ago, Deadsy said:

 

 

I feel you're misunderstanding me. I was saying "no" to the idea I was talking about the book writing being poor.

 

I am saying it's bad writing in the show to say she was turned away for being poor, unless she was lying or was misled. I'm literally only talking about the options in the TV show.

 

I apologise I did misunderstand, but if so I am not sure what you were saying

 

I understood that you were saying it can't be she could channel, so I pointed out there is clear evidence in the books that she could 

[Guire]

I am tentatively on board with change.  My hope is that at some point we learn the old wisdom was a failed novice and just changed story over very long time to justify it to herself.  Maybe an older Aes Sedai like Verin talking about a novice she knew from Two Rivers.  Yes we need to see some frustrated Nyn losing her cool.  Maybe when she catches up to group.  You can see the underlying anger in actor fighting back saying more in that scene.  I think they are going to let it loose at some point.

 

So now how do we address no single dad to tomboy Nyn all up.  Since I know we are going to have cast compression, just make Tam her stand in uncle.  Tam would take Nyn hunting and  tracking while she was learning to collect herbs and materials for aging Wisdom.  She would babysit Rand at times after his mom died.  Now we get more background for her and Rand's trust.  Nyn is his half adopted big sister.  This is also totally in line with Tam's character.  If ever there was a guy who would pick strays its Tam.  Here being a young orphan also is a bonding opportunity for her and Lan.  They were both raised by amazing people who set them on a path but both have issues related to no parents.

 

 

[raz311]

9 hours ago, Ralph said:

Personally I find the dialogue quite clunky, especially Moiraine. 

That was my impression as well. I thought Zoe's acting was quite good here, but not Rosamund's. Could be the dialog or just a weird edit though. Guess I'll see tomorrow when the show drops.

[king of nowhere]

the two easiest explanation for turning away a potential novice are

- she was too old, and she already mastered her channeling enough to be safe. we know the white tower turns those women down, until egwene's reforms.

- she was too weak. listening to the wind does not necessarily imply great power. Maybe she was sorilea's power level, and - again, as she already mastered enough to be safe - she was turned down.

[AusLeviathan]

12 hours ago, Ralph said:

Personally I find the dialogue quite clunky, especially Moiraine.

It's just two women talking to each other in a very bland way that's completely devoid of personality and unfortunately that matches how most major publications have described the show's writing.

 

Granted I'm not exactly surprised by that, the current batch of Hollywood screenwriters struggle to write dialogue that feels like real people talking instead of just actors following a script.

 

It's interesting to think, RJ only briefly described what happened in the conversation shown in this clip and it was off page, yet he still managed to make it significantly more interesting and show more about their characters than this whole two minute clip did.

Edited November 18, 2021 by AusLeviathan

[Katherine]

3 hours ago, raz311 said:

That was my impression as well. I thought Zoe's acting was quite good here, but not Rosamund's. Could be the dialog or just a weird edit though. Guess I'll see tomorrow when the show drops.

 

Agreed Rosamund felt.....awkward. But maybe it is out of context? DId not expect to ever say that about her!

[themann1086]

Since I saw the clip in context first it's hard for me to judge, but I did find the Winespring Inn entrance flowed better in the show than it did as just a clip so that could be the case here for people, too. This was not one of the scenes I found "mrgh" (very official evaluation here) from the first episode, but ymmv!

[WhiteVeils]

12 hours ago, Agitel said:

 

I feel like this is a really bad reading of Nynaeve. She has heard tales of Aes Sedai manipulation. She's largely right in her suspicion of Aes Sedai weaving people into their webs (see: Siuan and the wonder girls) and that what an Aes Sedai says isn't always true in the way you think. She doesn't trust Moiraine because she absconds with four young adults with nary a word in the middle of the night after a vicious attack on her village, and when the Women's Circle and Village Council are stuck debating she takes the brave initiative to go out alone to get them back. Any adult who reads TEOTW should really see where Nynaeve is coming from, imo.

 

WE know that Nynaeve knows those things...that she's heard tales and so on, because we've read the books and in the books, we've read Nynaeve's thoughts. But in the show, there is going to be minimal, if any, 'thought dumping' where these characters share their innermost thoughts with the audience.  That's the whole point...the 'feel' has to be translated into forms that the audience can see without reading TEOTW.

[WhiteVeils]

1 hour ago, king of nowhere said:

the two easiest explanation for turning away a potential novice are

- she was too old, and she already mastered her channeling enough to be safe. we know the white tower turns those women down, until egwene's reforms.

- she was too weak. listening to the wind does not necessarily imply great power. Maybe she was sorilea's power level, and - again, as she already mastered enough to be safe - she was turned down.

Additional possible reasons:

- she didn't tell Nynaeve the entire truth about what happened:  was put out of the tower for failing the accepted test or getting in trouble or falling awry of politics or similar (unlikely, but putting it out there)

- she first ran into a sister that was not a 'normal' aes sedai who put her out on the pure discriminatory grounds Nynaeve cites...a black sister, or just one who was an elitist snob.

- she was actually many hundreds of years old when she died as a low-level wilder, and only came to Emond's Field at the end of her life.  What she told Nynaeve was true, but it happened before there was a lack of Aes Sedai, long in the past, when they did put candidates out for their poverty.  Nynaeve has been told the truth, but not when this occurred.

 

[TheDreadReader]

3 hours ago, AusLeviathan said:

It's just two women talking to each other in a very bland way that's completely devoid of personality and unfortunately that matches how most major publications have described the show's writing.

 

To be honest, the critics saying this gives me hope that the show has managed to find its voice and that voice is sufficiently different from the "norm" so as to increase the chances of the show's success.

 

 

 

3 hours ago, AusLeviathan said:

Granted I'm not exactly surprised by that, the current batch of Hollywood screenwriters struggle to write dialogue that feels like real people talking instead of just actors following a script.

 

Context being everything.  There is an over-indulgence with a lot of scripts to over emphasize "witty repartee" which can be like sugary frosting on a cake.   It is sweet.  It gives you a sugar rush.   But, all sugar rushes end.

 

It may help if you focus on what the dialogue reveals about each character and consider how that fits together with the character that we know from the books.   There may be differences between the book character and the show character but those fall neatly into what I would call the shows voice.

 

 

3 hours ago, AusLeviathan said:

 

It's interesting to think, RJ only briefly described what happened in the conversation shown in this clip and it was off page, yet he still managed to make it significantly more interesting and show more about their characters than this whole two minute clip did.

 

I don't actually recall this conversation being in the books, outside of having other characters provide a brief description of them talking. But... 

 

Consider who Moiraine is in this scene.   She's an Aes Sedai.  She could easily be the Queen of Cierhien.  And, she's playing a version of Das Dae'mar against a young village wisdom.  She has a clear objective in what she is trying to obtain from this conversation. 

 

Her words edge up to being provoking but never really cross it.  She remains fully in control of the conversation throughout it.  She has a purpose in the buttons she pushes.   She uses them to steer the conversation towards here purpose.  And, she gets the information that she wants without Nyneave realizing what she's after.

 

As written the scene does a good job of showing that.   There are a few technical issues with it from a film standpoint but that can be expected in a pilot.   One issue that really sticks out is when Rosamund says the line "You're strong."  You'd expect a longer pause before she continues on.  Showing a reaction from Nyneave would make sense in that pause.  The scene could use a little more time and space to breathe.

 

On the story about Nyneave's mentor, I think some are focusing on the wrong thing.  The writers are setting up  her relationship with the Aes Sedai with that story.   The specifics of the story don't functionally matter as much as the fact that Nyneave has a pre-conceived notion about Aes Sedai.  That sets the stage for her potential internal or external conflict in the coming episodes.   It also creates space for Nyneave to have a  different relationship with the Aes Sedai than Egwene does which is consistent with the books.  Egwene joins the Aes Sedai wholeheartedly.  Nyneave never really does in the same way.  

 

 We also see in a lot of the released show materials (trailers, pictures, etc) that Nyneave spends a lot more time early on with the Aes Sedai so establishing those things here makes a lot of sense.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 18, 2021 by TheDreadReader

[AusLeviathan]

4 hours ago, TheDreadReader said:

To be honest, the critics saying this gives me hope that the show has managed to find its voice and that voice is sufficiently different from the "norm" so as to increase the chances of the show's success.

That's fine but if this is the voice of the show then watching it is going to be pretty painful for me. I watch a lot of things and I'll give pretty much anything a chance but I honestly can't remember cringing that much whilst watching a scene like this before.

 

My expectations at this point are so low they're at the floor but at least the good thing now is I won't be disappointed. Even if it is bad it's still likely going to be better than what I'm expecting at this point so that's something.

[ForsakenPotato]

I heard people voicing concerns that TV Nyneave was too nice, that clip did a lot to ease my fears. Her annoyance is palpable and her "enjoy your walk" at the end might as well have been giving the finger. Lines up with all the times in the books she congratulates herself for being restrained and polite, while it's obvious to everyone else in the room she completely missed the mark. She's probably leaving like "I wish I could have smacked her but I was soooo respectful no one could ever possibly fault me for my manners."

 

I agree some of the dialogue felt a bit off. Not terrible but not great. I think Rosamund Pike is in a tough position, the Aes Sedai are often described as masking their emotions incredibly well, but watching someone be emotionless on screen comes across as stiff and kinda weird. I'm undecided if that's good and actually fits well with how the EF5 view her at first (and future glimpses of real feelings will be more poignant) or if it's just gonna be clunky and distracting.

[king of nowhere]

5 hours ago, TheDreadReader said:

 

To be honest, the critics saying this gives me hope that the show has managed to find its voice and that voice is sufficiently different from the "norm" so as to increase the chances of the show's success.

 

 

 

 

Context being everything.  There is an over-indulgence with a lot of scripts to over emphasize "witty repartee" which can be like sugary frosting on a cake.   It is sweet.  It gives you a sugar rush.   But, all sugar rushes end.

 

It may help if you focus on what the dialogue reveals about each character and consider how that fits together with the character that we know from the books.   There may be differences between the book character and the show character but those fall neatly into what I would call the shows voice.

 

 

 

I don't actually recall this conversation being in the books, outside of having other characters provide a brief description of them talking. But... 

 

Consider who Moiraine is in this scene.   She's an Aes Sedai.  She could easily be the Queen of Cierhien.  And, she's playing a version of Das Dae'mar against a young village wisdom.  She has a clear objective in what she is trying to obtain from this conversation. 

 

Her words edge up to being provoking but never really cross it.  She remains fully in control of the conversation throughout it.  She has a purpose in the buttons she pushes.   She uses them to steer the conversation towards here purpose.  And, she gets the information that she wants without Nyneave realizing what she's after.

 

As written the scene does a good job of showing that.   There are a few technical issues with it from a film standpoint but that can be expected in a pilot.   One issue that really sticks out is when Rosamund says the line "You're strong."  You'd expect a longer pause before she continues on.  Showing a reaction from Nyneave would make sense in that pause.  The scene could use a little more time and space to breathe.

 

On the story about Nyneave's mentor, I think some are focusing on the wrong thing.  The writers are setting up  her relationship with the Aes Sedai with that story.   The specifics of the story don't functionally matter as much as the fact that Nyneave has a pre-conceived notion about Aes Sedai.  That sets the stage for her potential internal or external conflict in the coming episodes.   It also creates space for Nyneave to have a  different relationship with the Aes Sedai than Egwene does which is consistent with the books.  Egwene joins the Aes Sedai wholeheartedly.  Nyneave never really does in the same way.  

 

 We also see in a lot of the released show materials (trailers, pictures, etc) that Nyneave spends a lot more time early on with the Aes Sedai so establishing those things here makes a lot of sense.

 

yes, i also read it that way. moiraine is very faithful both to her character, and to how this conversation was said to happen in the book. if it feels innatural, it's because moiraine is not out there doing small talk, but she's doing politics.

and it actually shows off moiraine skill with that, that she got the information she wanted without the target realizing it

it even shows how jerkasses aes sedai are: moiraine could have easily obtained the same information by actually making small talk and being nice and befriending people.

Edited November 18, 2021 by king of nowhere

[Skipp]

10 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

yes, i also read it that way. moiraine is very faithful both to her character, and to how this conversation was said to happen in the book. if it feels innatural, it's because moiraine is not out there doing small talk, but she's doing politics.

and it actually shows off moiraine skill with that, that she got the information she wanted without the target realizing it

it even shows how jerkasses aes sedai are: moiraine could have easily obtained the same information by actually making small talk and being nice and befriending people.

 

Agreed, she saw what buttons she had to press and wasted no time in launching the nuke.