IGN Explainer - the Dark One

[Reader]

2 hours ago, Ralph said:

What did Egwene think she was doing when she opposed the Dragon's plan? She felt he was mistaken and breaking the seals would break the world. What did she feel would happen if she opposed it? 

Without opening another (the same) can of worms, is the Amyrlin Seat still the "Watcher of the Seals", if the arrogant men who believed they could cage the Great Lord, sorry I mean the Dark One, failed in doing that?

[Elder_Haman]

2 minutes ago, Reader said:

if the arrogant men who believed they could cage the Great Lord, sorry I mean the Dark One, failed in doing that?

Did they not fail? The Dark One is touching the pattern.

[Reader]

4 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Did they not fail? The Dark One is touching the pattern.

And so the seals are worthless.

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, Reader said:

And so the seals are worthless.

Not entirely. 

[Ryan al'Thor]

I think everyone is getting tired of debating this. Clearly there’s a big split in opinions. I think it’s just WAFO at this point and hope for the best.

[Beidomon]

5 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

 

It's worth a watch. This is the boost of encouragement I needed.

It seems very clear that Season One will be centered on the question of "who is the Dragon?" It also seems clear that the Dragon is going to be very much an unknown quantity. "Is the Dragon a savior or a destroyer?" is going to provide the subtext. And to me, this hints at something I have advocated for a long time - structuring the tv show so the audience genuinely does not know whether Rand is a force for good. At Natrin's Barrow, I've always wanted new audiences to be convinced that Rand must be stopped. Essentially, that Egwene is right in not wanting to destroy the seals.

 

Follow my logic here:

• If you believe that Rand is a destroyer, then you must believe that someone else will be the savior.
• If someone else is the savior, that person would fulfill the prophecy of saving the world.
• The person who saved the world would be the "true Dragon".
• If Rand is a destroyer, then the person who most opposes Rand is likely the savior.
• Egwene's rivalry with Rand is at its apex.

 

By keeping the door open a crack as to "might the Dragon be a girl," they have kept alive a huge moment of dramatic tension. For audiences who don't know what's coming, they leave the possibility alive that Egwene is the "true Dragon," that she is right, that Rand doesn't know what he's doing. 

 

Looking at it from this perspective, leaving Egwene as a sort of "dark horse" for the true hero is actually an inspired choice in my opinion. 

 

This clip also makes it clear that the stories are going to be personal and that they will lean into the backstories of the Forsaken. My optimism has returned!! 

I agree with your take, to an extent. I’ve said this before, that one of the greatest weaknesses of WOT is how flat some of the characters are, particularly the bad guys, and it’s an area I hoped WOTTV to improve upon, so I LOVED hearing Rafe speak to this. On this point at least, he clearly “gets it.”

 

I also agree with the notion of “restoring balance” versus “good defeating evil.” This is actually something I think Sanderson mishandled a bit with how AMOL ended. 

 

Re the Dragon, I was a little less enthused. Yes, the Dragon and the other male AS broke the world. And that is very important. And yes, the Dragon Reborn is prophesied to do it again. But that’s all Rafe says. He doesn’t even mention what the Dragon was doing, or that the DR is also prophesied to SAVE the world.

 

And I never really bought for a moment in the books that Rand was evil or that we needed an “anti-Dragon,” and the whole Egwene being a necessary counterweight angle was downright hamfisted and annoying in the books. So no, I’m not super excited about that approach if that’s what they really intend to do. 
 

So I don’t agree with you at all that “leaving the door open a crack” that Egwene might be the true Dragon is an inspired decision. I don’t buy that for a minute. That was NEVER the story in WOT and it shouldn’t be the story in WOTTV, either. 

Edited November 5, 2021 by Beidomon

[Beidomon]

4 hours ago, MasterAblar said:

Car'a'carn doesn't have anything to do with the Dragon Reborn strictly speaking.

 

I do think its rather hard to keep people doubting that Rand is the Dragon Reborn all the way to the latter books. He knocks down prophecies left and right and battles the forsaken every tuesday. Sure it could be a giant misdirection from the showrunners but I don't know if the story is structured in a way to make that feasible.

Unless WOTTV makes more changes…. Maybe Eg takes out a few more of the Forsaken. Maybe Eg fulfills some of the prophesies, too. Maybe…. gah I just can’t do this. Don’t deviate from the core story, Rafe. That is gonna piss me off. 

[Beidomon]

1 hour ago, Reader said:

Without opening another (the same) can of worms, is the Amyrlin Seat still the "Watcher of the Seals", if the arrogant men who believed they could cage the Great Lord, sorry I mean the Dark One, failed in doing that?

I was going to mention this in that other thread before it got locked, but I have zero issue with Moraine calling the men arrogant. No, it isn’t a fair characterization, but it DOES fit current Aes Sedai perception. 

[Jackdaw_Fool]

What about co-dragons? Egwene and Rand can both be the dragon reborn! Keeps with the importance of balance. And makes the Aes Sedai symbol symbolically complete... 

[Agitel]

28 minutes ago, Beidomon said:

Re the Dragon, I was a little less enthused. Yes, the Dragon and the other male AS broke the world. And that is very important. And yes, the Dragon Reborn is prophesied to do it again. But that’s all Rafe says. He doesn’t even mention what the Dragon was doing, or that the DR is also prophesied to SAVE the world.

 

I'm someone who was anticipating that they'd be pitching that the Dragon could potentially be reborn as a woman, and I say that to be clear I'm not a blind optimist who ignores the way the winds seem to be blowing. But I am optimistic here that we'll see the lore expanded on, and what we're being told up front is a limited, restricted version of what the show lore is, and we're going to get all these details about why the men did what they did. At the beginning of EotW we are also presented with a mischaracterization of Aes Sedai, the Dragon, etc... Now, the books presented it through the lens of a farm boy, the show apparently through an Aes Sedai who in the books would know a little better, but I think they're trying to capture the same feeling there for the audience. We're given one picture of events which is not entirely correct, and that picture will change as the show goes on. If Rafe isn't expanding on that background lore and not giving anything more than an "opening chapters" picture in his pre-release talks, I am not assuming that's the final picture. I think we'll get the lore at some point.

 

And as I said elsewhere, while in the books Moiraine is certainly more balanced (and I hope we see that in the show once we're past teasers), Moiraine's opening description in the teasers really does fit very well into how many women throughout the book series would talk about men's stubbornness, arrogance, woolheadedness, foolishness, etc...

Edited November 5, 2021 by Agitel

[DaddyFinn]

1 hour ago, Beidomon said:

I also agree with the notion of “restoring balance” versus “good defeating evil.” This is actually something I think Sanderson mishandled a bit with how AMOL ended. 

Didn't RJ write the ending? 

 

1 hour ago, Beidomon said:

And I never really bought for a moment in the books that Rand was evil

His actions were sometimes. He was doing what had to be done in his own POV.

[Guest Wolfbrother31]

7 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

 

It's worth a watch. This is the boost of encouragement I needed.

It seems very clear that Season One will be centered on the question of "who is the Dragon?" It also seems clear that the Dragon is going to be very much an unknown quantity. "Is the Dragon a savior or a destroyer?" is going to provide the subtext. And to me, this hints at something I have advocated for a long time - structuring the tv show so the audience genuinely does not know whether Rand is a force for good. At Natrin's Barrow, I've always wanted new audiences to be convinced that Rand must be stopped. Essentially, that Egwene is right in not wanting to destroy the seals.

 

Follow my logic here:

• If you believe that Rand is a destroyer, then you must believe that someone else will be the savior.
• If someone else is the savior, that person would fulfill the prophecy of saving the world.
• The person who saved the world would be the "true Dragon".
• If Rand is a destroyer, then the person who most opposes Rand is likely the savior.
• Egwene's rivalry with Rand is at its apex.

 

By keeping the door open a crack as to "might the Dragon be a girl," they have kept alive a huge moment of dramatic tension. For audiences who don't know what's coming, they leave the possibility alive that Egwene is the "true Dragon," that she is right, that Rand doesn't know what he's doing. 

 

Looking at it from this perspective, leaving Egwene as a sort of "dark horse" for the true hero is actually an inspired choice in my opinion. 

 

This clip also makes it clear that the stories are going to be personal and that they will lean into the backstories of the Forsaken. My optimism has returned!! 

 

 

 

My optimism is rising. Was at an all time low the other day - slightly lifted by a hint here that we might get a Forsaken in S1.

 

This is confirmation for me that they're leaning heavy into the wrong question: WHO is the DR? 

 

But the... Is the Dragon a Savior or Destroyer? is a much better question & I think long-term that's probably the main tension question they'll have to pursue... but that's not aided by the possibility of the Dragon being female (but I don't want to talk about that anymore). 

 

On the other hand, this idea of maybe playing up Egwene & Rand checking & balancing one another ... That could be alright. 

 

But I think for me... I'll just try to make a strong effort here in the next two weeks to just forget the books... And treat this as a totally different thing ... And judge it along the lines of, was it an entertaining show? Rather than ... was it the WoT as I imagined it? 

 

Comparison is usually the death of joy. 

 

Because from what I've seen so far - I have rising confidence it's going to be an entertaining show [more entertaining than say... Shadow & Bone]! 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 5, 2021 by Wolfbrother31

[WhiteVeils]

10 hours ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

 

But I think for me... I'll just try to make a strong effort here in the next two weeks to just forget the books... And treat this as a totally different thing ... And judge it along the lines of, was it an entertaining show? Rather than ... was it the WoT as I imagined it?

I think you're making a wise choice.

[Ralph]

Personally, I prefer to make the comparisons as I go on through the show. I think trying to understand why they have changed what they have changed, deciding whether I agree and assessing whether it is successful will be a very interesting way of watching the show. There is no show I have done that with before - I only read GOT after the show was a success, and I hadn't read LOTR for years before the films. Nothing else has ever absorbed me like WOT has, and I look forward to seeing it in a new format. 

 

I am sure they will have made changes I will disagree with, and changes I dislike even when I understand the reason, but I don't see why that should spoil the show for me as a new experience. 

 

And yes I HATE the idea of it being a new turning of the Wheel, because that is just a way of making it palatable to those who will oppose any changes, and that is not me. It is definitely not a new turning, so if you think it is too different for you to swallow, then either don't watch or watch it as a new version entirely, as you have said. Don't pretend that a new version can be another part of RJ's vision and that they both exist. Personally I have no problem with taking it as it goes. 

 

The main thing is we will all enjoy it in our own way. 

Edited November 5, 2021 by Ralph

[TheDreadReader]

12 hours ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

 

This is confirmation for me that they're leaning heavy into the wrong question: WHO is the DR? 

 

 

I wonder if I can reassure you?  I can at least try.  Focusing solely on this question and hopefully leaving out all the other hashed over to death debate points.  ?

 

These videos seem to have been filmed at the conclusion of filming of season 1.  They are aimed at new viewers.  Specifically, I think, the kind of new viewers that would either research the show before they start watching or go out and search for information after watching the first three episodes.  So, basically not the no-spoilers set.  They are giving very little context for those viewers, so they can ask the right questions or think about a few specific things. 

 

It makes sense if you think about it.  Your average new viewer isn't going to know that a Dragon Reborn exists until the show tells them that.  They are not going to know who could be or could not be the Dragon Reborn until the show says.  It's just a hook for the new viewer.

 

 

12 hours ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

On the other hand, this idea of maybe playing up Egwene & Rand checking & balancing one another ... That could be alright. 

 

 

 

I like the checking and balancing idea too.  It aligns with my sense of what RJ was trying to do.

 

 

 

[TheDreadReader]

14 hours ago, Beidomon said:

I was going to mention this in that other thread before it got locked, but I have zero issue with Moraine calling the men arrogant. No, it isn’t a fair characterization, but it DOES fit current Aes Sedai perception. 

 

I agree with this.  I've always thought that RJ spent a lot of time thinking about the problems of arrogance and those questions seem to be woven throughout the books.

 

[Wassup]

14 hours ago, Beidomon said:

I was going to mention this in that other thread before it got locked, but I have zero issue with Moraine calling the men arrogant. No, it isn’t a fair characterization, but it DOES fit current Aes Sedai perception. 

This makes me wonder, if the Aes Sedai are blaming men for all that happened, how do the female forsaken fit into it?  Surely they have some culpability in what transpired before and leading up to the breaking. It was not all just the men. 

[Ryan al'Thor]

Makes it easier to think of it as fan fiction. You can be pleasantly surprised in the cases where it does match the book. Might be easier said than done though ?

[Elder_Haman]

4 minutes ago, Ryan al'Thor said:

Makes it easier to think of it as fan fiction. You can be pleasantly surprised in the cases where it does match the book. Might be easier said than done though ?

I'm just curious. What is the purpose behind this post? Are you contributing to a discussion? Is this your opinion of the video? Or are you just trying to stir people up? 

[Elder_Haman]

18 minutes ago, Wassup said:

This makes me wonder, if the Aes Sedai are blaming men for all that happened, how do the female forsaken fit into it?  Surely they have some culpability in what transpired before and leading up to the breaking. It was not all just the men.

I think the show is 100% going to explore this. I'm just not quite sure how. Starting to wonder whether we are going to get a bunch of Age of Legends flashbacks as a vehicle to get to know the Forsaken better.

[TheDreadReader]

10 minutes ago, Wassup said:

This makes me wonder, if the Aes Sedai are blaming men for all that happened, how do the female forsaken fit into it?  Surely they have some culpability in what transpired before and leading up to the breaking. It was not all just the men. 

 

I don't know that we have enough information to say that they blame men for everything.   But, one could easily read into her comment that the Aes Sedai (like any institutional power) can be very self-serving in how they justify themselves and cast blame on others.

 

One of the things that I liked about the early chapters of TEOTW is how the villagers may not have had all the answers about the Dragon and the Breaking but they certainly seemed to have a sense of the right questions to ask about it.

 

 

 

 

[Ryan al'Thor]

34 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

I'm just curious. What is the purpose behind this post? Are you contributing to a discussion? Is this your opinion of the video? Or are you just trying to stir people up? 

Easy there Elder. I was replying to an earlier post about expectations. Should have quoted.

[TheDreadReader]

2 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

I could nitpick, but ultimately this did not suck. Egwene describing the Aes Sedai as "the balance" when they are, by nature of consisting of only females, imbalanced, stuck out but ultimately it doesn't matter. 

 

 

It kind of begs the question of what Maddie thinks the Aes Sedai are balancing.

 

 

 

 

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, TheDreadReader said:

It kind of begs the question of what Maddie thinks the Aes Sedai are balancing.

The Dark One, I think. Which seems 100% on brand with proto- Aes Sedai thinking. Maddie is really on brand as Egwene.

[MasterAblar]

3 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

The Dark One, I think. Which seems 100% on brand with proto- Aes Sedai thinking. Maddie is really on brand as Egwene.

 

Agreed the Aes Sedai love to think of themselves as the actual opponent of the Dark One. And for much of the third age they were to an extent.