Rumor from London Comic-Con

[Elder_Haman]

9 minutes ago, TheMountain said:

By viewers only? Okay, maybe. If done right and not dragged on for more than a couple episodes. But purely through some sort of clever misdirection. The characters need to know and their dialogue should reflect that. This is why the marketing was only bothersome, but the rumor from London Comic Con set off red flags for me.

This is what they're going for, IMO.

Also, what rumor? 

 

EDIT:

Duh. I'll need to see and hear the clip. But this seems like Aes Sedai trickeration, not an explicit claim that Eggy could be the DR.

Edited October 23, 2021 by Elder_Haman

[TheDreadReader]

It might be helpful to the discussion to unpack the whole "they are trying to misdirect the average viewer on the who the dragon is" point.   I hear it repeated often but I don't actually see any real evidence for it in anything that the show has released so far.    

 

I assume that the content creators on youtube, twitter, etc got this idea from somewhere given the number of times they repeat it.  And, the average fan might hear it and repeat it.  An average viewer can easily come up with the idea on their own too.   I'm not going to discount that at all.

 

For example, before they released the Logain video.  I assumed that they might go the direction of using him as a misdirection.  I heard more than one commentator suggest such a thing online too.  But, the actual Logain video has false dragon language all over it.  And, you don't hear too much about that idea anymore.

 

In the Moiraine's Quest video, Rand is front and center throughout it.   When Moiraine's voice says "baby" Rand's face is squarely in focus.  There's more than enough evidence within the video itself that points to who the dragon is.   

 

Basically, I think that the idea that they are going to spend a lot of time misdirecting us on the dragon may not have a lot of actual evidence to support it.   I think the simplest answer is that they're probably just not going to dwell too much on who is the dragon and that it who it is will be pretty clear fairly early.

 

 

 

[Jackdaw_Fool]

Regarding the truth of the statement, "one of you four is the dragon reborn," there is no lie there regardless of if you know one of the four can't possibly be the dragon reborn, or even if you know two or even three can't be. Not sure how there can be confusion on this... Maybe not native English speakers? One of you four is the dragon reborn is not the same as "any" one of you four is the dragon reborn. Two totally different statements.

 

I place four cards face down on the table in front of you. An ace, king, queen, and jack. I tell you one of the cards is the ace. This is a true statement. I flip over the jack. It's still completely 100% true for me to say one of the cards is the ace. Because one of the cards IS the ace.

Edited October 24, 2021 by Jackdaw_Fool

[JaimAybara]

1 hour ago, Jackdaw_Fool said:

Regarding the truth of the statement, "one of you four is the dragon reborn," there is no lie there regardless of if you know one of the four can't possibly be the dragon reborn, or even if you know two or even three can't be. Not sure how there can be confusion on this... Maybe not native English speakers? One of you four is the dragon reborn is not the same as "any" one of you four is the dragon reborn. Two totally different statements.

 

I place four cards face down on the table in front of you. An ace, king, queen, and jack. I tell you one of the cards is the ace. This is a true statement. I flip over the jack. It's still completely 100% true for me to say one of the cards is the ace. Because one of the cards IS the ace.

Yes, but a better analogy would be that one is a queen face up while the rest are potential aces face down. Why would you continue to question the queen, when you already know it’s a queen?  

[Jackdaw_Fool]

I don't follow at all what you are saying... Turn them all face up. One of the four cards is the ace is still a true statement, and that's all that matters.

Edited October 24, 2021 by Jackdaw_Fool

[Jackdaw_Fool]

Really confused by the confusion, lol.

 

Maybe put it another way... Take the statement, "One of you four is the Dragon Reborn."

 

If you say that is a lie, then how many of the four  would you say are the Dragon Reborn? Two? Three? Zero? One is the only correct answer and therefore "one of you four" is a true statement.

 

All this is predicated of course on the assumption that Moiraine knows/believes one is actually the Dragon Reborn (not sure exactly how), which was assumed earlier in the discussion.

 

 

[JaimAybara]

Perhaps the statement bothers me because it is just stupid to include her in it? Haha. 

 

If Elayne had two women with similar hair and features dress in gowns and stand next to her on one side and had Thom in his cloak on the other…you wouldn’t say, “One of you four is Elayne.” I guess the statement would be true but it sounds idiotic.  

[JaimAybara]

I still think when dealing with such small numbers it increases the specificity and importance of the subject. 
 

if I said, “one of you is the Dragon” to an entire stadium it would be widely understood it was the men I’m speaking to. When it is only four people it increases the importance of said people, so why include someone who I know is not…unless I believed they were? 

[Maximillion]

It's possible that they could make Egwene a transgender and become the Dragon Reborn.

Remember this whole show was pitched on the most progressive themes. 

The more I think about it, the less I think this show would have been green lighted if it had Rands character becoming the hope for the world in defeating evil.

Maybe it becomes a male/transgender love story and they have to work together to save the world? Maybe Rand can't do it alone and fails, but a transgender is able to touch both sides of the one power?.. i.e. a woman in a mans body is something the Dark Lord did not consider when he tainted the male half of the one power and it makes a M2F trans the only hope?

Who knows at this point, but I am pretty sure an investment of nearly 200m by Amazon for the opening 2 seasons is not going to be without it's current day themes at its core.  This TV series is only based on the books, it is not a screenplay of the books.

 

 

 

Edited October 24, 2021 by Maximillion

[DojoToad]

2 hours ago, Maximillion said:

It's possible that they could make Egwene a transgender and become the Dragon Reborn.

Remember this whole show was pitched on the most progressive themes. 

The more I think about it, the less I think this show would have been green lighted if it had Rands character becoming the hope for the world in defeating evil.

Maybe it becomes a male/transgender love story and they have to work together to save the world? Maybe Rand can't do it alone and fails, but a transgender is able to touch both sides of the one power?.. i.e. a woman in a mans body is something the Dark Lord did not consider when he tainted the male half of the one power and it makes a M2F trans the only hope?

Who knows at this point, but I am pretty sure an investment of nearly 200m by Amazon for the opening 2 seasons is not going to be without it's current day themes at its core.  This TV series is only based on the books, it is not a screenplay of the books.

 

 

 

Creator forbid!

[DaddyFinn]

2 hours ago, Maximillion said:

It's possible that they could make Egwene a transgender and become the Dragon Reborn.

Remember this whole show was pitched on the most progressive themes. 

The more I think about it, the less I think this show would have been green lighted if it had Rands character becoming the hope for the world in defeating evil.

Maybe it becomes a male/transgender love story and they have to work together to save the world? Maybe Rand can't do it alone and fails, but a transgender is able to touch both sides of the one power?.. i.e. a woman in a mans body is something the Dark Lord did not consider when he tainted the male half of the one power and it makes a M2F trans the only hope?

Who knows at this point, but I am pretty sure an investment of nearly 200m by Amazon for the opening 2 seasons is not going to be without it's current day themes at its core.  This TV series is only based on the books, it is not a screenplay of the books.

 

 

 

You forgot to add /s for sarcasm

[Katherine]

On 10/22/2021 at 7:29 PM, Tim said:

I think making Egwene ta’veren would be the more fundamental necessary follow-on adjustment to making her one of the people the DO is seeking (if it’s confined in series 1 that only the boys are ta’veren, that would suggest the target is one of them and not Egwene).

 

I don’t necessarily have a problem with that shift, although it would undermine somewhat a key contrast in the book - Rand, Mat and Perrin end up influencing people and changing events largely in spite of their efforts to the contrary, whereas Egwene has broadly the same world-changing impact as Perrin or Mat but through sheer determination. 
 

The contrast is perhaps clearest with Perrin, given he doesn’t exhibit as many of the obviously fate-distorting effects as Rand or Mat. In some ways Perrin becoming leader of the Two Rivers and Egwene becoming leader of the White Tower are similar arcs, but with Perrin it’s clearly due at least in part to effects beyond his control and that he would disavow if he could; with Egwene it’s largely planned, often meticulously. 
 

But if the show did want to go down this path, I think it could work, in the sense that these four effectively are the ultimate leaders of the Last Battle (in a way that say Elayne is not quite), and one of the themes the show could foreground is that these four people, who start from the same “place” both geographically and in terms of world-understanding, ultimately develop four very distinct styles of leadership, utilising their ta’veren effects in very different ways (this is still true if focusing just on R, M and P, but it’s sharper if you add E).

 

I agree with everything you said about Egwene and Perrin's story arcs. Of all the boys, Perrin's abilities are the most earned. However, it would matter a lot to me if they went down this path. Egwene's story is phenomenal.... she survives slavery, torture, extreme training.... the list goes on..... all to end up being one of the most powerful characters in the book. Every accomplishment was earned. COMPLETELY  earned. 

 

I would hate to see the show cheapen that.... and yes.... IMO it would cheapen her story.... enough that it would turn me off the show. That is just my perspective. 

Edited October 24, 2021 by Katherine
clarity

[Maximillion]

1 hour ago, DaddyFinn said:

You forgot to add /s for sarcasm

 

Don't be too sure ?

 

 

[Elder_Haman]

4 hours ago, Maximillion said:

It's possible that they could make Egwene a transgender and become the Dragon Reborn.

Do you honestly think this? Or are you trolling? Because this is definitely not happening. 

 

4 hours ago, Maximillion said:

Remember this whole show was pitched on the most progressive themes. 

Not really. The pitch simply emphasized the gender issues that are already a core part of WoT as a contrast to GoT. 

 

4 hours ago, Maximillion said:

The more I think about it, the less I think this show would have been green lighted if it had Rands character becoming the hope for the world in defeating evil.

Why? Bezos is rumored to be a fan of WoT. The story is wonderful and has an absolutely beautiful ending, (Also in contrast to GoT) along with a built in narrative that allows Rand to be an antagonist for a good portion of the latter part of the series. It’s a rich story with lots of complex themes. But you think it would be rejected because the main character is a man?

 

4 hours ago, Maximillion said:

Maybe it becomes a male/transgender love story and they have to work together to save the world?

They already have to work together to save the world. That’s pretty much the core concept of the books. 

 

4 hours ago, Maximillion said:

Maybe Rand can't do it alone and fails,

He can’t do it alone. And he doesn’t. 

 

4 hours ago, Maximillion said:

Who knows at this point, but I am pretty sure an investment of nearly 200m by Amazon for the opening 2 seasons is not going to be without it's current day themes at its core.

There is just no reason to believe this. Not everything has to be about politics. Sometimes people can just make art. 

[Borderlander]

23 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

There is just no reason to believe this.

 

Amazon Studios does have an Inclusion Playbook (as I'm sure many companies do by now) that establishes diversity/inclusionary quotas for all types of roles on film projects they work on both behind the scenes and in front of the camera. It's not as ominous as some people might fear, and it does include a bold header that says The story comes first. It also includes the following language: To reduce invisibility in entertainment, and where the story allows, we aim to include one character from each of the following categories for speaking roles of any size, and at minimum 50% of the total of these should be women: (1) lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, or gender non-conforming / non-binary; (2) person with a disability; and (3) three regionally underrepresented racial/ethnic/cultural groups (e.g. in the US, three of the following: Black, Latinx, Indigenous, Middle Eastern/North African, or Asian / Pacific Islander or Multi-Racial). A single character can fulfill one or more of these identities.

 

And: Creative teams are required to submit detailed plans for auditioning and casting to ensure that candidates from underrepresented communities are considered and hired. The plans must also outline strategies for how the production will cultivate an inclusive environment.

 

On the flip-side, it also says this: The Inclusion Policy recommends casting characters from all backgrounds, as long as it does not compromise the authenticity of the narrative. For example, when a movie or series focuses on a particular racial/ethnic group, or is set in a homogenous context or location, it will be exempted from the requirements to diversify casting.

 

To see the full Inclusion Policy for yourself: https://dei.amazonstudios.com/inclusion-policy/

 

So, I don't know that we can assume all aspects of the Wheel of Time are going to be free from 'modern-day' influences, whether you agree with quota-driven policies or not.

 

30 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Not everything has to be about politics.

 

No, it sure doesn't! And yet, it increasingly seems to seep into every untouched corner. Just because WoT doesn't have to be about politics, doesn't mean it won't be.

 

31 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Sometimes people can just make art. 

 

Would that it were so.

[Elder_Haman]

8 minutes ago, Borderlander said:

 

Amazon Studios does have an Inclusion Playbook (as I'm sure many companies do by now) that establishes diversity/inclusionary quotas for all types of roles on film projects they work on both behind the scenes and in front of the camera. It's not as ominous as some people might fear, and it does include a bold header that says The story comes first. It also includes the following language: To reduce invisibility in entertainment, and where the story allows, we aim to include one character from each of the following categories for speaking roles of any size, and at minimum 50% of the total of these should be women: (1) lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, or gender non-conforming / non-binary; (2) person with a disability; and (3) three regionally underrepresented racial/ethnic/cultural groups (e.g. in the US, three of the following: Black, Latinx, Indigenous, Middle Eastern/North African, or Asian / Pacific Islander or Multi-Racial). A single character can fulfill one or more of these identities.

 

And: Creative teams are required to submit detailed plans for auditioning and casting to ensure that candidates from underrepresented communities are considered and hired. The plans must also outline strategies for how the production will cultivate an inclusive environment.

 

On the flip-side, it also says this: The Inclusion Policy recommends casting characters from all backgrounds, as long as it does not compromise the authenticity of the narrative. For example, when a movie or series focuses on a particular racial/ethnic group, or is set in a homogenous context or location, it will be exempted from the requirements to diversify casting.

 

To see the full Inclusion Policy for yourself: https://dei.amazonstudios.com/inclusion-policy/

 

So, I don't know that we can assume all aspects of the Wheel of Time are going to be free from 'modern-day' influences, whether you agree with quota-driven policies or not.

 

 

No, it sure doesn't! And yet, it increasingly seems to seep into every untouched corner. Just because WoT doesn't have to be about politics, doesn't mean it won't be.

 

 

Would that it were so.

That’s interesting. But I don’t think it speaks to the idea that they are going to change the story in the way @Maximillionsuggests. 

[DojoToad]

If only they had released the first 3 episodes on October 19th we'd be done with all the conjecture...

[Elder_Haman]

These next 3 weeks are going to be a grind. 

[Maximillion]

4 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

That’s interesting. But I don’t think it speaks to the idea that they are going to change the story in the way @Maximillionsuggests. 

 

I didn't suggest they were going to change the story in the way I suggested.

I am speculating on how they might include Egwene in the 'suspects' for the Dragon.

I don't put ANYTHING past the people who make these shows, though.

Sorry - having seen a male lead character (and actor)  turn out to be woman as the big reveal in a recent favourite series of mine, I'll just wait and see what happens now.  I expect it these days.

 

Hopefully I will be pleasantly surprised.

I must say, though, the recent clip including Egwene in the 'who is the Dragon' talk over has left me very nervous, despite some of the reasoning/rationale in this thread.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 24, 2021 by Maximillion

[Borderlander]

5 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

But I don’t think it speaks to the idea that they are going to change the story in the way @Maximillionsuggests. 

 

100% agree. 

 

55 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

I don't put ANYTHING past the people who make these shows, though.

 

Also in complete agreement.

 

Very few ideas these days are 'off the table.' A year ago, I would have said making someone besides Rand the Dragon was absolutely insane and could never ever happen. Nowadays... I'm not sure I would even be surprised.

 

What would surprise me is if one of the 11,000 notes Rafe says the production team has received from their Amazon overlords did not include some suggestion/spitballing about Rand and a 'white savior complex,' and whether it might be possible to change the identity of the Dragon Reborn. I trust Rafe enough to ignore that particular sort of suggestion, but if the show is a $uccess and Big Daddy Amazon decides they want to make certain changes a few years down the road that Rafe disagrees with, who do we think is going to win that fight?

 

Again, I think a lot of these world-breaking what-ifs are extremely unlikely. I do think a lot of the smaller changes are worrying, though less from a political prism (for now) and more from a book-purist-insofar-as-that-is-possible-in-a-major-TV-adapataion perspective. We will have a much better idea where things stand in 3 weeks.

 

[Tim]

I tend to think a lot of the changes from the books of which we are currently aware - making Moiraine the central character initially; placing more emphasis on Egwene from the outset - are precisely because the show will mimic the book in having a “white male saviour”. It’s a prophylactic action, a preemptive step to ward off or minimise criticism about this issue. The show can present Rand’s story within the context of a broader universe that gives considerable prominence to other types of characters. If done well, it effectively neutralises the issue rather than make it a constant talking point. If the viewers “trust” that the show is thoughtful about such issues they will be less inclined to question the central narrative arc. 

 

A comparison that comes to mind is The Walking Dead, which started off somewhat straight-white-male focused, but very quickly transitioned into a universe which emphasised a diverse array (in terms of ethnicity, gender identity and sexuality) of characters without often making those qualities particularly important to whatever the plot happened to be. This is quite feasible in a post-apocalyptic world where all the old social rules have broken down - the most salient question is whether X person is likely to kill you, not which ethnicities or genders they are or are attracted to.
 

In a world like WOT where the weight of history is omnipresent, gender issues at least are a lot more complicated, and have to be dealt with more carefully. This has knock-on consequences too: when RJ (and then BS) belatedly tried to say that queer identifies were present in the WOT universe but were just not a big deal, this felt a bit forced because it’s hard to imagine a society where gender issues are so prominent but diverse sexualities are considered unremarkable (I mean, it’s possible, but it would require more explanation than the writers were prepared to give). 

I suspect these questions are ones which the show runners have and will continue to struggle with a lot and in good faith, e.g. do we include any prominent (not evil) queer characters? If so, are they characters from the books, new, or amalgams, and what does being queer mean in the WOT universe? If not, what is our explanation for why there aren’t prominent queer characters? 
 

And so they should! The purpose of studio diversity guides is to prompt people to have regard to these sorts of questions rather than to mandate a particular outcome.

 

It’s also not possible to avoid such questions and “stay out of politics” by just adhering to the books: e.g. the pre-BS books present queer sexuality first as non-existent, then associated with deviant characters only, then associated with deviant characters and adolescents as a product of forced circumstances. To just recreate that framing without question would still be a political statement about what it means to be queer - essentially saying that the show runners think there is nothing wrong with pathologising it. I not only expect but would hope that the show is a bit more thoughtful about these issues than that! 
 

(none of which is to say that the show should respond to these issues by just e.g. making a central character trans without regard to the consequences for the plot - but I’d be astonished if the internal debates on these issues are framed in such simplistic terms)

[king of nowhere]

14 hours ago, Maximillion said:

 Maybe Rand can't do it alone and fails, but a transgender is able to touch both sides of the one power?.. i.e. a woman in a mans body is something the Dark Lord did not consider when he tainted the male half of the one power and it makes a M2F trans the only hope?

Who knows at this point, but I am pretty sure an investment of nearly 200m by Amazon for the opening 2 seasons is not going to be without it's current day themes at its core.  This TV series is only based on the books, it is not a screenplay of the books.

Yes, and that's why they are spending 200 millions: to make things more realistic, they are going to give egwene's actor a real sex change surgery. which they will try to revert once the show is over

 

and I still can't tell if it was a serious concern or not!?

3 hours ago, Borderlander said:

 

What would surprise me is if one of the 11,000 notes Rafe says the production team has received from their Amazon overlords did not include some suggestion/spitballing about Rand and a 'white savior complex,' and whether it might be possible to change the identity of the Dragon Reborn. I trust Rafe enough to ignore that particular sort of suggestion, but if the show is a $uccess and Big Daddy Amazon decides they want to make certain changes a few years down the road that Rafe disagrees with, who do we think is going to win that fight?

 

I'd bet on Rafe.

He would most likely resign his place if pressured that far. Which will raise a big stink, and would lose a lot of public. the show popularity will flounder. The corporates don't want that.

[Ryan al'Thor]

I highly doubt they will make Egwene TDR. Because if they did, idiotic wouldn’t even begin to describe that decision making. It would be a disaster. We know, of course, that Rafe isn’t an idiot and nor are the various collaborators.
 

Won’t happen.

[Guire]

Oh it just got real.  Narg, bloody violence, villagers blaming Moraine. No more complaints for me.  Just ready to slide into some quality fantasy.

[SinisterDeath]

5 minutes ago, Guire said:

Oh it just got real.  Narg, bloody violence, villagers blaming Moraine. No more complaints for me.  Just ready to slide into some quality fantasy.

@GuireI moved your topic to this existing topic.