full book spoilers Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers)

[ForsakenPotato]

12 minutes ago, Akragard said:

And the Wolves. Why are the wolves so small? Did the production team not do any research? Wolves are roughly the size of black bears.

 

They are massive. Those little coyotes or house dogs from episode 3 aren't gonna be taking down a Trolloc or Fade.

I do think they used huskies for filming which are too small for wolves, similar problem as the direwolves on GoT faced and agree they could be bigger. But gonna disagree about sizes, the average wolf would be under a 100lb, so it's correct they should still be significantly smaller then Perrin. The average black bear is almost twice the weight of the average wolf, if not more.

[Katherine]

51 minutes ago, Arie said:

This is getting into insulting territory. Reign it back, please.

 Yeah don’t make anyone go get Nynaeve. She isn’t just the wisdom she Super Warrior Wisdom! She’ll kick y’all’s ass for real until you behave! ??

Edited November 20, 2021 by Katherine

[Agitel]

6 minutes ago, Akragard said:

Maybe I'm picturing them bigger in my head, but I'm 6'7" and 30 inches is mid thigh for me, which is pretty darn big.

 

Shorter than my two year old. ?

Edited November 20, 2021 by Agitel

[JaimAybara]

I think the biggest frustration some are having is the unceremonious and borderline vindictive narrative shifts taking place. All of which that are negative only impact men in general, or male leads. This is not balance and clearly displays to the viewer what and who is expendable according to the show runners. You can’t give the majority of the women bonus traits and dump on the men and expect sunshine and rainbow reactions from all the male fans. 
 

1. No village council or male cultural norms. And subsequently nerfing All the male characters that were in it narratively. So women have secret traditions, and men…just exist? Okay, cool.

 

2. Abel being a scumbag…instead of a good father who taught Mat the bow staff, hunting, and walks to Tar Valon to look for him with Tam.

 

3. Master Luhan…just everything. Wasn’t even there. Doesn’t give Perrin the Axe etc. 

 

4. Mat is a thief with scummy parents. 
 

5. Perrin is beyond quiet he is just super submissive and is likely doomed to be Eeyore now because of the dumb additions for his story. 
 

6. Rand is okay. Probably the closest to his actual arc out of the male leads, but is still kind of Bland al’Thor.

 

7. No Elyas? I guess no mentor for Perrin as of yet. Or…maybe at all? 
 

Lastly, all the women that are portrayed negatively so far, fall in the morally grey area, whereas the men who are legitimately villains are just blatantly evil.
 

Fain - smiling as everyone died. 
 

Valda - Burning an Aes Sedai and smiling. 
 

Dana - I’m not wrong, I’m a victim, join me, we’re actually the good guys, let’s seek sweet release. Etc. 

 

Liandrin- point of view moral relativism so far. 

 

I do like pretty much all of the shifts for the ladies. They are all good. But…they enhanced what was already there. For the men they either cut cool characters, remove their good qualities, or make them weaker and I don’t understand why. Hollywood and almost every streaming service has embraced this mentality and it’s pissing off a lot of male viewers. And sure some might say it’s whining, but I do believe it is a justifiable complaint. And there is more than enough evidence to support it. 

[Akragard]

2 minutes ago, Agitel said:

 

Shorter at the shoulder than my two year old.

Yeah, okay, so not Black Bears. I always imagine wolves bigger and those things looked smaller than the husky I had. Must just be a scope thing.

 

[Skipp]

15 minutes ago, Akragard said:

Yeah, okay, so not Black Bears. I always imagine wolves bigger and those things looked smaller than the husky I had. Must just be a scope thing.

 

Wolves are bigger, those were Wolf dogs.  I think that pack has their own instagram as well.  But no they didn't film with actual wolves.

[swollymammoth]

31 minutes ago, JaimAybara said:

I think the biggest frustration some are having is the unceremonious and borderline vindictive narrative shifts taking place. All of which that are negative only impact men in general, or male leads. This is not balance and clearly displays to the viewer what and who is expendable according to the show runners. You can’t give the majority of the women bonus traits and dump on the men and expect sunshine and rainbow reactions from all the male fans. 

Well said, well said. At best its lazy writing. At worst its vindictive. Cheers to you Mr. Aybara. 

Edited November 20, 2021 by swollymammoth

[Akragard]

51 minutes ago, JaimAybara said:

3.. Master Luhan…just everything. Wasn’t even there. Doesn’t give Perrin the Axe etc. 

I got the impression that they combined Master and Mistress Luhan into Perrin and Layla. It's not a great decision, since Perrin is a primary character, but Luhan wasn't super important.

 

54 minutes ago, JaimAybara said:

7. No Elyas? I guess no mentor for Perrin as of yet. Or…maybe at all? 

I think Elyas will come to the Tinker camp next episode. Weird that they didn't have him there to introduce the Tinkers and make that weird semi-aggressive meeting a little more friendly.

[Beidomon]

1 hour ago, JaimAybara said:

I think the biggest frustration some are having is the unceremonious and borderline vindictive narrative shifts taking place. All of which that are negative only impact men in general, or male leads. This is not balance and clearly displays to the viewer what and who is expendable according to the show runners. You can’t give the majority of the women bonus traits and dump on the men and expect sunshine and rainbow reactions from all the male fans. 
 

1. No village council or male cultural norms. And subsequently nerfing All the male characters that were in it narratively. So women have secret traditions, and men…just exist? Okay, cool.

 

2. Abel being a scumbag…instead of a good father who taught Mat the bow staff, hunting, and walks to Tar Valon to look for him with Tam.

 

3. Master Luhan…just everything. Wasn’t even there. Doesn’t give Perrin the Axe etc. 

 

4. Mat is a thief with scummy parents. 
 

5. Perrin is beyond quiet he is just super submissive and is likely doomed to be Eeyore now because of the dumb additions for his story. 
 

6. Rand is okay. Probably the closest to his actual arc out of the male leads, but is still kind of Bland al’Thor.

 

7. No Elyas? I guess no mentor for Perrin as of yet. Or…maybe at all? 
 

Lastly, all the women that are portrayed negatively so far, fall in the morally grey area, whereas the men who are legitimately villains are just blatantly evil.
 

Fain - smiling as everyone died. 
 

Valda - Burning an Aes Sedai and smiling. 
 

Dana - I’m not wrong, I’m a victim, join me, we’re actually the good guys, let’s seek sweet release. Etc. 

 

Liandrin- point of view moral relativism so far. 

 

I do like pretty much all of the shifts for the ladies. They are all good. But…they enhanced what was already there. For the men they either cut cool characters, remove their good qualities, or make them weaker and I don’t understand why. Hollywood and almost every streaming service has embraced this mentality and it’s pissing off a lot of male viewers. And sure some might say it’s whining, but I do believe it is a justifiable complaint. And there is more than enough evidence to support it. 

To be honest, while it’s clear they’re trying to build up the female characters - Wonder Woman Nynaeve - it didn’t really dawn on me that there conversely shitting all over the male characters. Yeah, I guess I can see that. But I could forgive that if the show was at least good. After three episodes I’d say it’s mediocre at best. The trouble is that the stuff I’m bothered is more production-related stuff. It looks YA/CW, the “music”sucks, the dialogue is too often cheesy, etc.  

[JaimAybara]

2 minutes ago, Akragard said:

I got the impression that they combined Master and Mistress Luhan into Perrin and Layla. It's not a great decision, since Perrin is a primary character, but Luhan wasn't super important.

 

I think Elyas will come to the Tinker camp next episode. Weird that they didn't have him there to introduce the Tinkers and make that weird semi-aggressive meeting a little more friendly.

Luhan is a male role model for Perrin and honestly his father figure upon Perrin’s return. Many of these characters are important regardless of their page time. I hope you are right about Elyas though.

[Akragard]

2 minutes ago, Beidomon said:

The trouble is that the stuff I’m bothered is more production-related stuff. It looks YA/CW, the “music”sucks, the dialogue is too often cheesy, etc.  

This. I can write off all the story changes, mentally, as a different turning of the wheel. But the production can't be explained away.

[swollymammoth]

3 minutes ago, Beidomon said:

It looks YA/CW

I really wish we could define what this means for people who don't get it, but I feel similarly. There's just something about it that seems artificial in the same way that something like Divergent does. Like the difference between a river and a canal. And it's not just the look, it's the way the characters talk and act. The conversation with the Darkfriend chick screamed that to me, but I have the darnedest time explaining what exactly it was. Like the characters don't really inhabit their world but are instead just modern 21st century people wearing fantasy clothes. For some reason, the focus on Laila really rings of this to me. Sounds like Katniss talking about her little sister. I'm rambling, but this is the best I can do to communicate what this sensation is and why it's so distracting. 

 

Will definitely be thinking more about this. 

[Akragard]

10 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

I really wish we could define what this means for people who don't get it, but I feel similarly.

It's bad writing. With things like this it is always a matter of poor dialogue writing. The dialogue feels wooden and unnatural. People don't talk this way. Just look at the swearing in the show. It's artificial adultification (I made this word up) of the conversation. The WoT universe had it's own brash language, much like Battlestar Galactica, and it worked.

 

And this isn't to say the writers are bad writers, just they aren't doing a good job with the dialogue.

Edited November 20, 2021 by Akragard

[divica]

15 minutes ago, Beidomon said:

To be honest, while it’s clear they’re trying to build up the female characters - Wonder Woman Nynaeve - it didn’t really dawn on me that there conversely shitting all over the male characters. Yeah, I guess I can see that. But I could forgive that if the show was at least good. After three episodes I’d say it’s mediocre at best. The trouble is that the stuff I’m bothered is more production-related stuff. It looks YA/CW, the “music”sucks, the dialogue is too often cheesy, etc.  

with the hair nyn was like predator. I don't get why they would make that whole scene.

 

Just like I don't get why they changed the beguining of the story so much. The book does a much better job raising interest in the story without focusing on a cliche savior vs evil that tends to bore people.

 

But most of all, I don't get why rand isn't the main character of the story and they made him so bland and boring. For any person that didn't read the books egwene is the main character and wil become the dragon.

[swollymammoth]

7 minutes ago, Akragard said:

Just look at the swearing in the show. It's artificial adultification (I made this word up) of the conversation. The WoT universe had it's own brash language, much like Battlestar Galactica, and it worked.

This was indeed extremely stupid. WoT has (IMO) the only fantasy profanity that actually works. Just having the characters use Light and Blood and Ashes and Burn you more frequently would have been a super easy way to make the world feel more real and cohesive. In a TV show where you can't really get away with massive info dumps as easily as in books, details like this would have gone a long way towards establishing the world for unfamiliar audiences. But they didn't do that. Because reasons. 

[MasterAblar]

22 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

This was indeed extremely stupid. WoT has (IMO) the only fantasy profanity that actually works. Just having the characters use Light and Blood and Ashes and Burn you more frequently would have been a super easy way to make the world feel more real and cohesive. In a TV show where you can't really get away with massive info dumps as easily as in books, details like this would have gone a long way towards establishing the world for unfamiliar audiences. But they didn't do that. Because reasons. 

 

They do say light occasionally but I agree a bit more blood and ashes and the like would go a long way. I can kinda understand them not keeping the sillier name calling in the books though (think Mat's insults) even if I personally liked it. Hard to say if people would mind it or not.

[TheMountain]

The dialogue is definitely a little wooden and YA right now... hopefully that improves.

[flinn]

10 hours ago, RextheDog said:

to be fair, they are leaving the town as trollocs decend from the mountains, closing in, he has no time for a funeral pyre.....

 

that said, the leaving and the reason they had to go was very underdone, i hope they dont mess other things up as badly.

 

 

 I understand the circumstances, with the trollocs descending. Also, speaking as a widow, I wouldnt have given 2 shits how many trollocs were coming. At most I would have said... I guess you better get off those horses and help me dig a grave, because I won't be leaving until my wife is taken care of to my satisfaction.

Edited November 21, 2021 by flinn

[Deadsy]

I find it weird there are so many posters here the past few days with 2 posts on Dragonmount who hate the show. Why do these people feel the need when they never came here to even talk about the books?

[Arthellion]

I have concerns with the show, but all in all enjoyed.

 

my non book friends loved it. My wife loved it. Heck my parents loved it.

 

the past two pages here have been depressing. Like I get the need to vent. But it’s not all bad.

[Starganderfish]

3 hours ago, JaimAybara said:

I think the biggest frustration some are having is the unceremonious and borderline vindictive narrative shifts taking place. All of which that are negative only impact men in general, or male leads. This is not balance and clearly displays to the viewer what and who is expendable according to the show runners. You can’t give the majority of the women bonus traits and dump on the men and expect sunshine and rainbow reactions from all the male fans. 
 

1. No village council or male cultural norms. And subsequently nerfing All the male characters that were in it narratively. So women have secret traditions, and men…just exist? Okay, cool.

 

2. Abel being a scumbag…instead of a good father who taught Mat the bow staff, hunting, and walks to Tar Valon to look for him with Tam.

 

3. Master Luhan…just everything. Wasn’t even there. Doesn’t give Perrin the Axe etc. 

 

4. Mat is a thief with scummy parents. 
 

5. Perrin is beyond quiet he is just super submissive and is likely doomed to be Eeyore now because of the dumb additions for his story. 
 

6. Rand is okay. Probably the closest to his actual arc out of the male leads, but is still kind of Bland al’Thor.

 

7. No Elyas? I guess no mentor for Perrin as of yet. Or…maybe at all? 
 

Lastly, all the women that are portrayed negatively so far, fall in the morally grey area, whereas the men who are legitimately villains are just blatantly evil.
 

Fain - smiling as everyone died. 
 

Valda - Burning an Aes Sedai and smiling. 
 

Dana - I’m not wrong, I’m a victim, join me, we’re actually the good guys, let’s seek sweet release. Etc. 

 

Liandrin- point of view moral relativism so far. 

 

I do like pretty much all of the shifts for the ladies. They are all good. But…they enhanced what was already there. For the men they either cut cool characters, remove their good qualities, or make them weaker and I don’t understand why. Hollywood and almost every streaming service has embraced this mentality and it’s pissing off a lot of male viewers. And sure some might say it’s whining, but I do believe it is a justifiable complaint. And there is more than enough evidence to support it. 

Actually I think this world is one where I’m okay with lifting up women and shitting on men. Men caused the Breaking. Every time a man learns to channel he either goes mad and devastates a few square kilometres or he sets himself up as a false Dragon and tries to start another World War. That’s gonna have an impact on social niceties. Given that the current trend in entertainment seems to be to do this anyways, at least it kind of makes sense here. 
But no. There’s not going to be an Elyas. They’ve announced just about every secondary, tertiary character and even random passers-by at this point but the IMDB cast list has NO listing for Elyas. Chalk it up as another “Rafe knows best” idea I guess. ?

[Akragard]

1 minute ago, Arthellion said:

the past two pages here have been depressing. Like I get the need to vent. But it’s not all bad.

Most people aren't saying it is all bad. But it's not nearly as good as everyone expected, I think is the problem. For the amount of money they had to spend, it still feels cheap.

 

There is some good. The Fades damn terrifying. The young kid actors are actually really good, if not for the dialogue lines they have to spew. There is not enough good given how much was spent to make this show. It's 8 episodes long. They had 100 million or something like that. That's 12.5 mil per episode and this is what we got for it? This is the problem people have.

 

Where did the money go, Rafe? Where did the money go?!

[Deadsy]

7 minutes ago, NightWolf said:

Are there prerequisites in place that in order to post about the show one must have talked about the books X amount of times? If you know of any then would you be willing to point folks to it? 

 

So you find it weird or do you find it frustrating? A common trend observed in commenters that are frustrated and want to draw on public support and sympathy is that they open their rebuttals with "I find it interesting..." or "I find it weird...". Do you think that you are trying to do this?

 

Lastly are these "2 poster" people you mentioned only hating on the show or can you recall any that support it?

 

 

I find it weird. Just like I find it weird when my favorite football team starts losing a bunch of people who've never posted on the forum about it come out of the woodwork and cry about it. Why weren't they interested enough to talk about positives before? I don't understand the attitude of only talking about a topic when you're mad about it.

And yes the only ones I've noticed are haters so far but I haven't been focused on it.

Edited November 21, 2021 by Deadsy

[Deadsy]

Just now, NightWolf said:

Ok, thx.

 

 

And I don't mean you... the 2 posts was mostly literal. I've seen like 3 people today who are brand new (<5 posts) and have never talked WoT before just come to complain about it.

[Akragard]

5 minutes ago, Deadsy said:

I don't understand the attitude of only talking about a topic when you're mad about it.

And yes the only ones I've noticed are haters so far but I haven't been focused on it.

You've clearly never worked in the service industry. This is a pretty common thing. People are less likely to take the time to point out something they liked. Right or wrong, that's kinda the way it goes.