tv show spoilers S1E4: The Dragon Reborn

[WhiteVeils]

52 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

What made Thom compare Matt to his nephew Owyn? Had Matt changed in the short time he knew him, channeled, or cut his own throat?

According to Thom's beliefs (not necessarily what is real in this version of the world), the 'signs' that he noticed for a male first becoming a channeler are:

1) A radical change in personality, from normal/fun-loving to 'going sour'...getting dark/depressed/moody, acting weird
2) Animals suddenly becoming afraid of them, rearing away
3) (Not stated as such, but I think apparent in how Thom looked at Mat) Physical symptoms such a illness.

Thom may not be right, but these all would seem logical extensions not so much of channeling, but reacting to the taint on the male side of the source.

Mat, by coincidence, shows all of these symptoms, just as described.  The fact that Thom could see Mat changing very quickly adds to it.  Especially in the reaction of the horses.  Mat likely had some personality similarities to Owyn to begin with which helped firm up the association.

He doesn't want Mat to be turned over to the Aes Sedai lest they gentle him.

[Harad the White]

1 minute ago, WhiteVeils said:

He doesn't want Mat to be turned over to the Aes Sedai lest they gentle him.

Ok, that make sense in terms of "keep him away from the Aes Sedai," if he were a channeler.  But Thom, a gleeman of the world,  interprets the situation incorrectly, not knowing about the Dagger, and without Matt showing any evidence of using the Power. He didn't throw a rock "with no hands." Matt had the Dagger before he met Thom and there were no significant differences between their interactions that day. Furthermore, men channeling, a la Owyn, do not have symptoms like Matt's reaction to the Dagger. I may not be remembering, but do male channelers scare animals, and even if so, Matt's horse was spooked once, but let him ride the rest of the time. Is physical deterioration a sign of channeling? The first male channeler was outrunning Aes Sedai on horseback, and Logain looked pretty buff. 

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

16 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

Mat, by coincidence, shows all of these symptoms, just as described.  The fact that Thom could see Mat changing very quickly adds to it.  Especially in the reaction of the horses.  Mat likely had some personality similarities to Owyn to begin with which helped firm up the association

Also this is a classic case of the human tendency to re-fight a prior battle instead of recognising a new situation and acting on it.  We also need to keep in mind that Thom is apparently not aware they visited Shadar Logoth (and even if he were knowledge of the different corruption of that place is sufficiently esoteric that even this lore-wise character would not be likely to know of it).

[Guire]

7 minutes ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

Also this is a classic case of the human tendency to re-fight a prior battle instead of recognising a new situation and acting on it.  We also need to keep in mind that Thom is apparently not aware they visited Shadar Logoth (and even if he were knowledge of the different corruption of that place is sufficiently esoteric that even this lore-wise character would not be likely to know of it).

Wonder if this played into holding Thom back from starting in Two Rivers?  I am starting to think certain changes were played out.  Just still hoping the payoffs are worth changes.

[ArrylT]

Apologies if this was mentioned before - but I dont think I've seen anyone talk about it.

 

But, while taking a closer look at the cave with Logain to spot the columns with writing on them, I realized that Kerene sacrificed herself to save Moiraine and Liandrin. ??

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

2 minutes ago, ArrylT said:

But, while taking a closer look at the cave with Logain

Was anyone else struck by the similarity between this cave and the womens circle pool cave - appears to be the same size and shape and the entrance looks identical - is this the same set with a different floor and lighting  or a deliberate attempt at metaphor due to N's starting her journey to a new sisterhood here?

 

[Arie]

1 hour ago, Harad the White said:

Thanks for the answer. But that doesn't seem like it matches the story of Owyn enough to elicit that reaction. Also in that same scene didn't he same "keep him away from the women"? The mother and young daughter at the farm?

 

It was kinda addressed. To me he said "those women" referring to Aes Sedai, not necessarily the woman on the farm or there likely would have been a closer eye on him in that location. ?

[Guire]

5 minutes ago, ArrylT said:

Apologies if this was mentioned before - but I dont think I've seen anyone talk about it.

 

But, while taking a closer look at the cave with Logain to spot the columns with writing on them, I realized that Kerene sacrificed herself to save Moiraine and Liandrin. ??

Yep thought that was obvious.  Battle Ajah general.  You don't get into that role without ability to jump on a grenade.  Also if he had got them with saidan missiles they would not have been able to shield him.  I did wonder why she didnt throw up a longer air shield but that doesn't help plot advance.

[Zarathustra]

Taking Logain's description of R (when he saw him on the walls in Cam and started laughing) and applying it to Nyn was terrible.

 

It's been a while since I read the books but, did the girls not learn how to detonate bands of earth after they were nicked by the Seanchan?

Edited November 28, 2021 by Zarathustra

[Guire]

6 minutes ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

Was anyone else struck by the similarity between this cave and the womens circle pool cave - appears to be the same size and shape and the entrance looks identical - is this the same set with a different floor and lighting  or a deliberate attempt at metaphor due to N's starting her journey to a new sisterhood here?

 

I think it was repurposed set but possibly a nod to earlier setting.

[DaddyFinn]

5 minutes ago, Guire said:

I did wonder why she didnt throw up a longer air shield but that doesn't help plot advance.

If that was all her remaining strength allowed?

[ArrylT]

7 minutes ago, Guire said:

Yep thought that was obvious.  Battle Ajah general.  You don't get into that role without ability to jump on a grenade.  Also if he had got them with saidan missiles they would not have been able to shield him.  I did wonder why she didnt throw up a longer air shield but that doesn't help plot advance.

 

No the first few times I thought that they each were putting up shields - and hers was simply too slow to be formed in time.   It wasnt until this run-through that I noticed her weave created the shields for them.

[ArrylT]

Regarding Stepin - my take on his actions is this

 

Kerene dies and he is in absolute agony

 

The agony continues and he wanders around slightly

 

Then the remnants of Logains Dragonsworn and an attack on him directly caused him to instinctively defend himself, and take out his pain on the attackers.  

 

Then still shell-shocked, all he could do was follow the orders of the closest Green Ajah Aes Sedai and run to the cave.

 

There immediately upon seeing Kerene and realizing who had killed her, the rest of the agony of her death, aided by that visual acknowledgement, led him to make that berserker rage attack that was so not helpful.  

 

Wonder if we'll see what happens to him - will his bond be picked up by another Aes Sedai.   Based on the instinct to defend himself, even in the shock of what happened, suggests that perhaps he could be able to recover.  

 

[Deadsy]

Thom definitely meant Aes Sedai. When he is referring to the "women" he means the Red Aes Sedai he just spoke of to Rand.

 

He has only known one male channeler presumably. He may not know what the exact symptoms are for all male channelers. He took Mat's sickness and the horse being scared of him to mean he could be the same as Owyn. Additionally he knows a fade is after them - he may have heard the mention of the Dragon also.

Edited November 28, 2021 by Deadsy

[dorotea]

10 hours ago, Mnemosyne said:

Agree that the dancing was disappointingly asexual, I think they wanted to tone down the "women dance for the men" aspect, but they could have just made EVERYONE dance a little bit sexily... ?

Somehow, I feel that the part that women actually *enjoy* dancing for the men was not in the scripts because somehow having fun it is a taboo (on this show). Now woman killing a trolloc with its own sword is 'the thing'.

 

I am not looking forward toward them exploring the Ebou Dar, or Tanchiko, or any other location where women would wear anything fun or sexy. So far everybody in this season seems to be stuck in Far Madding.

[Harldin]

21 hours ago, ArrylT said:

Regarding Stepin - my take on his actions is this

 

Kerene dies and he is in absolute agony

 

The agony continues and he wanders around slightly

 

Then the remnants of Logains Dragonsworn and an attack on him directly caused him to instinctively defend himself, and take out his pain on the attackers.  

 

Then still shell-shocked, all he could do was follow the orders of the closest Green Ajah Aes Sedai and run to the cave.

 

There immediately upon seeing Kerene and realizing who had killed her, the rest of the agony of her death, aided by that visual acknowledgement, led him to make that berserker rage attack that was so not helpful.  

 

Wonder if we'll see what happens to him - will his bond be picked up by another Aes Sedai.   Based on the instinct to defend himself, even in the shock of what happened, suggests that perhaps he could be able to recover.  

 

I like Stepin I hope they retain Peter Franzen, maybe have Alanna bond him.

Edited November 29, 2021 by Harldin
One to many hims

[DaddyFinn]

7 minutes ago, Harldin said:

I like Stepin I hope they retain Peter Franzen, maybe have him Alanna bond him.

That would be such an Alanna thing to do

[themann1086]

2 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

That would be such an Alanna thing to do

Hopefully she asks first ?

[Pandemonium]

2 hours ago, Harad the White said:

I'm not, and, again, in that scene. Logaine refutes the voices. He may think they are his past lives, but, imho, he is mistaken. They are Forsaken.

you are still on the forsaken speaking to logain?  they don't have that power in the books.  

[Pandemonium]

2 hours ago, Harad the White said:

Cinematography

The fadeout from the setting sun over the Tinker camp to the light in the Rand/Matt/Thom barn was cinematic.

 

Some questions:

 

What made Thom compare Matt to his nephew Owyn? Had Matt changed in the short time he knew him, channeled, or cut his own throat?

 

Did the Aes Sedai leave Logain unshielded to fight the battle? Ok, the answer to this is that he knocked out the two, Kerene and Liandrin. Although it's possible Liandrin let him go (taking a chance) to gentle him, as she threatened.

 

Matt was displaying odd behavior already and mood swings and getting sick.  However, I think the darkfriend chasing them really put Matt on Thoms radar

[Harad the White]

4 minutes ago, Pandemonium said:

you are still on the forsaken speaking to logain?  they don't have that power in the books.  

You're still clinging to "they don't do that in the books"?

[Harad the White]

4 minutes ago, Pandemonium said:

Matt was displaying odd behavior already and mood swings and getting sick.  However, I think the darkfriend chasing them really put Matt on Thoms radar

Again (being chased by darkfriends), is not a thing that male channelers suffered. The key to that whole scene is that Thom (mistakenly) thought Matt was a channeler. None of the reasons, including yours, given above, is cornvincing.

[Pandemonium]

4 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

Again (being chased by darkfriends), is not a thing that male channelers suffered. The key to that whole scene is that Thom (mistakenly) thought Matt was a channeler. None of the reasons, including yours, given above, is cornvincing.

Male channelers did suffer from that actually.  Taim became a darkfriend at some point, and they certainly chased Rand.  The shadow will always try to recruit power

[Harad the White]

1 minute ago, Pandemonium said:

Taim became a darkfriend at some point, and they certainly chased Rand. 

er...Rand was the Dragon Reborn. What other male channeler was chased by darkfriends in the book? Now in Amazon, the Forsaken whispered in Logain's ears.?

Matt did not throw a rock without his hands. Matt did not cut his own throat or exhibit other signs of madness. There is nothing he did that should make Thom suspect he was a channeler. However, it was cornvenient for the show writers to move the story in that way. It's just is a logical flaw.

[Pandemonium]

1 minute ago, Harad the White said:

er...Rand was the Dragon Reborn. What other male channeler was chased by darkfriends in the book? Now in Amazon, the Forsaken whispered in Logain's ears.?

Matt did not throw a rock without his hands. Matt did not cut his own throat or exhibit other signs of madness. There is nothing he did that should make Thom suspect he was a channeler. However, it was cornvenient for the show writers to move the story in that way. It's just is a logical flaw.

 

The shadow will always be interested in male channelers.  We already mentioned Taim.  Also we saw the black tower channelers getting turned to the shadow by circles of 13 with a fade.  Darkfriends/the shadow is always interested in these male channelers whether they are newbie channelers or seasoned channelers.