Cauthon and Tylin arc/Morgase comparison (!Caution! Sensitive Topic - Read at Your Own Risk)

[Fano'Lan Redux]

Starting this thread after mistakenly sidetracking a thread in the show forum

 

Trying to comprehend the seemingly universal acceptance here that the Cauthon/Tylin arc supports the conclusion Mat was raped by Tylin and that the interactions between them are comparable to what Morgase suffered at the hands of Valda

 

The origin and discussion of this contention eluded me in the moment, and I have to educate myself on the arguments in favor of the position. Other than the interview with Harriet mentioned in the other thread, would greatly appreciate anyone pointing me to supporting contentions

..........................

In short, I disagree with "rape" conclusion and the minimization of Morgase's trauma in comparison so would like to evaluate the underlying arguments for that conclusion

[Fano'Lan Redux]

Didn't take long and am not surprised to discover it was Sanderson putting it out there like gospel and everyone shrugged

 

Happily missed it then, sorry to remind folks about it now, disappointed to realize that's how Jordan's work is now portrayed

[Agitel]

31 minutes ago, Fano'Lan Redux said:

Didn't take long and am not surprised to discover it was Sanderson putting it out there like gospel and everyone shrugged

 

RJ commented on the scenario when asked about it in a 1996 book signing. Here's the summary of his comments.
 

Quote

 

RJ wrote the Mat/Tylin scenario as a humorous role-reversal thing. His editor, and wife, thought it was a good discussion of sexual harassment and rape with comic undertones. She liked it because it dealt with very serious issues in a humorous way. She seemed to think it would be a good way to explain to men/boys what this can be like for women/girls, showing the fear, etc.

 

https://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=65

 

 

The characterization of the situation as rape by Jordan/Harriet and fans certainly didn't originate with Sanderson.

[SinisterDeath]

7 hours ago, Fano'Lan Redux said:

Trying to comprehend the seemingly universal acceptance here that the Cauthon/Tylin arc supports the conclusion Mat was raped by Tylin and that the interactions between them are comparable to what Morgase suffered at the hands of Valda

Not all rape requires the victim to be physically and violently assaulted.

 

Rape is Rape, regardless of the severity.

 

The idea that Mat wasn't a victim of rape, because Morgrase's rape was "worse", dismisses the fact that he was infact, raped.

 

If we replaced Mat with Nyneave, there would be no question whether Nyneave was a rape victim. 

 

Quote

In short, I disagree with "rape" conclusion and the minimization of Morgase's trauma in comparison so would like to evaluate the underlying arguments for that conclusion

 

Classifying Mat's scenario as rape, doesn't dismiss or minimize Morgase's rape.

 

Example: You got into a horrible accident, and broke your femur. I also got into an accident and broke both my femur and tibia.

Does saying you broke your leg dismiss/minimize my own broken leg?

[king of nowhere]

1 hour ago, SinisterDeath said:

Example: You got into a horrible accident, and broke your femur. I also got into an accident and broke both my femur and tibia.

Does saying you broke your leg dismiss/minimize my own broken leg?

I like that example.

Because that's the whole argument presented here: that just because there are worse kind of rapes, then mat does not count

9 hours ago, Fano'Lan Redux said:

and that the interactions between them are comparable to what Morgase suffered at the hands of Valda

false dicotomy. just like there are different degrees of murder, and for all of them there can be extenuating and aggravating circumstances, but in all cases someone is killed wrongly. So there are different degrees of rape, with extenuating and aggravating circumstances, but in all cases there is someone forced to have sex against his will.

2 hours ago, Agitel said:

RJ wrote the Mat/Tylin scenario as a humorous role-reversal thing. His editor, and wife, thought it was a good discussion of sexual harassment and rape with comic undertones. She liked it because it dealt with very serious issues in a humorous way. She seemed to think it would be a good way to explain to men/boys what this can be like for women/girls, showing the fear, etc.

Ah, the good old times when you still could publicly tell politically incorrect jokes. That was before people assumed that just because you told a joke, you would condone what happened in the joke.

[king of nowhere]

Oh, I am also answering from the main thread, because i think i do owe you an answer

On 8/27/2021 at 4:53 AM, Fano'Lan Redux said:

You are equating acts that are exponentially different. It is a false equivalency

 

Mat and Tylin's interactions have absolutely nothing to do with any real world movement. Reiterating a false conclusion does not make it true and your appeal to outside authority bears no merit

 

At any point Mat could choose to leave and would not get fired, would not lose his ability to earn a living, would not get blackballed or ostracized or face a more difficult hiring process or any of the myriad atrocities foisted upon women in this country and to a greater degree in many places around the world

 

Morgase. Literally. Had. No. Option. To. End. Her. Rape

 

Belittle my experience all you want. I've traversed the road, survived and thrived

Sorry you took it wrong, but you completely misunderstood me.

How can you accuse me of making a false equivalency when I keep writing that the two things are not equivalent? How can you feel that I "belittle your experience" when I directly stated that what you suffered was worse?

But I dare say that this has absolutely everything to do with real world movements. Wasn't the whole point of the #metoo movement to denounce the abuses made by people (generally men) in a position of power blackmailing/pressuring their subordinates into accepting sex? which is exactly what's happening with mat?

 

Regarding mat being free to leave, I seem to remember scenes of him being captured and brought back by servants, but maybe i remember wrong? It's been a while since my last reread. But even if I remember that detail wrong, mat spent most of his time in the palace either honor-bound to stay by hiw promises to elayne and nynaeve, or recuperating from his wounds in the seanchan assault

 

[DojoToad]

As in the other thread - rape is rape...

[Thrasymachus]

I think part of the difference here, is that Mat's feelings about Tylin are conflicted, even prior to the sexual encounter.  He thinks she's hot and acknowledges that he might pursue something with her if circumstances were different, and the only reason he resists initially is because she's a queen, and then because she took that choice away from him. 

 

Taking that choice away from him makes it rape, but the fact that there was a prior possibility of consent, and the fact that the relationship itself was conducted in such a way as to hold out the possibility of a reconciliation of consent, makes it significantly morally different to the relationship between Valda and Morgase.  Morgase submitted because the alternative was her death and the death of those following her.  But there was no prior possibility that she would have chosen a sexual relationship with Valda.  And he forced that relationship without any kind of regard for her as a person.

 

Mat's physical strength over Tylin doesn't really come into it too much, though.  She pulled a knife on him.

[Fano'Lan Redux]

On 8/30/2021 at 6:33 PM, Agitel said:

 

RJ commented on the scenario when asked about it in a 1996 book signing. Here's the summary of his comments.
 

 

The characterization of the situation as rape by Jordan/Harriet and fans certainly didn't originate with Sanderson.

Thank you for providing the link. Some things to point out from my perspective.

 

First, the text provided is a paraphrase written by an attendant, so I'm not entirely comfortable reading that as a verbatim account. Maybe there's a recording or a transcript, if I find anything, will be sure to share.

 

In that reporting, as provided, Brian Richie says the following about Jordan's response to a question about the scenario: "a humorous role-reversal thing."  That is it. Given the entirety of Mat's character arc, "reversing his role" suggests something drastically different to me than appears to be the case for many.  Mat is the character who reflects to himself about only chasing women willing to be chased or there not being a point otherwise. A role-reversal in the scenario under discussion puts Mat in the position of the willingly pursued.

 

Brian Richie then provides three distinct, though related, points made by Jordan's editor and wife:

- a good discussion of sexual harassment and rape with comic undertones

- liked it because it dealt with very serious issues in a humorous way

- a good way to explain to men/boys what this can be like for women/girls, showing the fear etc.

 

Again, assuming accuracy in the reporting, a few things concern me. First, if wife and editor actually used the word "rape" to describe the scenario, I would want to inquire as to her understanding of the word and whether she was using it in a clinical/expert manner and if so to substantiate her foundation as an expert to do so.

 

As is, the reader is left to fill the void as to whether that usage is a familiar/colloquial usage encompassing a wide range of actions or if she is referring to what then would have been a generally accepted usage in a specific field of expertise. The ambiguity allows for a diverse range of interpretations depending on the reader's background and prior exposure.

 

Wife and editor's second point is contentious to me. Very serious issues? Yes. In a humorous way? Yes. Dealt with? Not sure I can get on board with that conclusion unless the definition is limited to "raised issue/s in order to provoke discussion."

 

Wife and editor's third point, if true as written by Brian Richie, is very problematic for me but I can allow for some benefit of the doubt given wife and editor's generational exposure to questions of gender identity and "acceptable" male behavior. The implication that men/boys are somehow unable to process the suffering of an other does irk me.

--------------

 

All in all, taking the above into account does not justify the leap to the quotes I have seen attributed to Sanderson where he definitively categorizes the scenario as "rape." As the chosen author, and therefore purveyor of canon for nearly the entirety of the fandom, his words carry weight.

 

As an author who came of age during the internet era, he most assuredly was apprised of any discussions taking place at the time so he made the conscious effort to make a specific conclusion and foist upon fandom that conclusion: Jordan wrote Tylin as role-reversed, rapist Mat

[Fano'Lan Redux]

On 8/30/2021 at 7:24 PM, SinisterDeath said:

Not all rape requires the victim to be physically and violently assaulted.

 

Rape is Rape, regardless of the severity.

 

The idea that Mat wasn't a victim of rape, because Morgrase's rape was "worse", dismisses the fact that he was infact, raped.

 

If we replaced Mat with Nyneave, there would be no question whether Nyneave was a rape victim. 

 

 

Classifying Mat's scenario as rape, doesn't dismiss or minimize Morgase's rape.

 

Example: You got into a horrible accident, and broke your femur. I also got into an accident and broke both my femur and tibia.

Does saying you broke your leg dismiss/minimize my own broken leg?

 

Firstly, thank you for providing the appropriate disclaimer in the title. Apologies for not thinking to do so myself.

 

Second, there are drastically different approaches that are undertaken in order to begin a path to healing for victims of violent physical assault and rape compared to the healing undertaken to recover from any other deplorable act used to remove one's capacity to consent.

 

If you, or anyone else can speak to this issue as an emergency medical provider or mental health professional, or someone who has for some other reason acquired the knowledge and expertise to treat a victim in the imminent aftermath of a violent sexual assault I would be more than willing to follow up on direction to literature that might inform me otherwise.

 

My life experience compels me to put the victim and their immediate survival first and foremost when confronted with the aftermath of a violent sexual assault. Any delineation between degrees of culpability wrt criminal acts takes a second seat for me

[Fano'Lan Redux]

On 8/30/2021 at 9:42 PM, king of nowhere said:

Oh, I am also answering from the main thread, because i think i do owe you an answer

Sorry you took it wrong, but you completely misunderstood me.

How can you accuse me of making a false equivalency when I keep writing that the two things are not equivalent? How can you feel that I "belittle your experience" when I directly stated that what you suffered was worse?

But I dare say that this has absolutely everything to do with real world movements. Wasn't the whole point of the #metoo movement to denounce the abuses made by people (generally men) in a position of power blackmailing/pressuring their subordinates into accepting sex? which is exactly what's happening with mat?

 

Regarding mat being free to leave, I seem to remember scenes of him being captured and brought back by servants, but maybe i remember wrong? It's been a while since my last reread. But even if I remember that detail wrong, mat spent most of his time in the palace either honor-bound to stay by hiw promises to elayne and nynaeve, or recuperating from his wounds in the seanchan assault

 

 

I apologize for any mis-interpretation, over-reaction or otherwise harsh words in my initial response(s), will go back to re-read and extend same as necessary

 

For me, there is such a huge difference in the necessary first steps for victims of these behaviors, it's a challenge to even consider the respective offending acts as part and parcel of a continuum labelled "rape."

----

I would say the Sanderson quote was driven by the still underway drive to eliminate, as best possible, all forms of coercion, overt or covert

 

Currently re-reading Mat's actions, words and thoughts as the scenario progresses. Thank you for continuing the dialogue

[Fano'Lan Redux]

On 8/30/2021 at 7:24 PM, SinisterDeath said:

Not all rape requires the victim to be physically and violently assaulted.

 

Rape is Rape, regardless of the severity.

 

The idea that Mat wasn't a victim of rape, because Morgrase's rape was "worse", dismisses the fact that he was infact, raped.

 

If we replaced Mat with Nyneave, there would be no question whether Nyneave was a rape victim. 

 

 

Classifying Mat's scenario as rape, doesn't dismiss or minimize Morgase's rape.

 

Example: You got into a horrible accident, and broke your femur. I also got into an accident and broke both my femur and tibia.

Does saying you broke your leg dismiss/minimize my own broken leg?

 

On 8/30/2021 at 9:20 PM, king of nowhere said:

I like that example.

Because that's the whole argument presented here: that just because there are worse kind of rapes, then mat does not count

false dicotomy. just like there are different degrees of murder, and for all of them there can be extenuating and aggravating circumstances, but in all cases someone is killed wrongly. So there are different degrees of rape, with extenuating and aggravating circumstances, but in all cases there is someone forced to have sex against his will.

Ah, the good old times when you still could publicly tell politically incorrect jokes. That was before people assumed that just because you told a joke, you would condone what happened in the joke.

 

It may be the culturally acceptable thing to say "rape is rape" then dust your hands as if that changes the reality of care needed for the victims but that falls a little short of convincing for me. Perhaps that issue is much bigger than the WoT discussion and better addressed in different forums, I'll follow your lead on that.

 

As to the accident example, it's more like there are multiple stages of care required for these two separate victims and while most steps are the same those who have been put in fear of their own imminent demise require a step that includes evaluation/treatment of any existing physical damage and an effective assurance of safety from on going threat(s) to existence - before undertaking any additional healing steps. Recognizing that distinction does not deny the tragedy for either.

 

As to the murder example, since all victims are dead, the focus on criminal culpability is all that's left for society to address in that circumstance. Parsing intent and fine tuning sentencing make no difference to the dead.

.........

 

As to the WoT scenario, the conclusion "he was in fact, raped" is a conclusion that's in doubt for me as to it's support in the text. If external sources indicate that conclusion in the words of Team Jordan, please point me in the right direction.

 

 

[SinisterDeath]

4 minutes ago, Fano'Lan Redux said:

It may be the culturally acceptable thing to say "rape is rape" then dust your hands as if that changes the reality of care needed for the victims but that falls a little short of convincing for me.

The problem with the logic you're presenting, is that "diagnosis" = the Treatment plan. 

 

9 minutes ago, Fano'Lan Redux said:

As to the accident example, it's more like there are multiple stages of care required for these two separate victims and while most steps are the same those who have been put in fear of their own imminent demise require a step that includes evaluation/treatment of any existing physical damage and an effective assurance of safety from on going threat(s) to existence - before undertaking any additional healing steps. Recognizing that distinction does not deny the tragedy for either.

Correct.
The point I was making, is that "Diagnosing" something that is less severe doesn't dismiss or invalidate the extreme case. 
You tailor care to the patients needs, not o the "diagnosis".

Take Autism Spectrum Disorder as an Example.
Millions of children are diagnosed every year.
ASD has 3 levels.
Level 1, 2, and 3.
Level one often requires the least support.
Level 3 requires the most support.

There are countries in Europe that refuse to use DSM-5 diagnostic criteria, and will only diagnose level 3 with Autism. Their philosophy is a diagnosis = financial Support ($$) = level of care. 

They can't separate out a "diagnosis" =/= level of care. That those with level 1 or 2 ASD, still require support, and treatment even if they don't require as much as level 3. That the level of support and treatment should be tailored to the individuals needs, and not what's mandated by some board that's never seen the patient.

In the broken leg example.
My broken leg may only need to be reset and put in a cast.
You with the "less severe" break, might require surgery to fix the break. 
I might only need 600mg of Ibuprofen every 4 hours for Pain, while you might need a Morphine drip. 

Diagnosing both of us with a "broken leg" =/= level of care.

 

17 minutes ago, Fano'Lan Redux said:

As to the WoT scenario, the conclusion "he was in fact, raped" is a conclusion that's in doubt for me.

*Shrugs*
We all eventually disagree on certain topics. This happens to be one of those hot-button topics that can get nasty really fast.
Rape = Rape isn't just a social media catch phrase to dust our hands off of the reality of it. 
It's used precisely because It's still not being taken seriously by society in general.

Entirely too many women are subject to sexual assault and rape every year, they are victim-blamed, and not taken seriously.
When it comes to a lot of things in our society, men are often believed more than women. In 2017, when Terry Crews came out and said he was sexually assaulted. He wasn't believed by Hollywood.  He was even black listed... exactly what happened to a lot of women in his exact situation.

----------------------------------

When RJ role-reversed Mat's situation, making the pursuer, the pursued.
From what we know Mat never forced himself on anyone. (Unless we start talking Ta'Varen... then things get weird)

The fact that Tylin pursued Mat wasn't the issue.

It was the how she pursued him, and how she forced her self on him, that escalates this beyond just "having a good time".

RJ may have thought it was humorous when he wrote it.. but if anything good ever came out of that scene, hopefully it highlights to male readers that.. what happened to Mat was Sexual Harassment, Assault, and Rape... And hopefully they don't do what Tylin did, to others.

It's also why I hope the "role reversal" of Male and Female "power" dynamics in WoT, opens readers eyes to power dynamics in our reality, in a healthy way.

 

Quote

Perhaps that issue is much bigger than the WoT discussion and better addressed in different forums, I'll follow your lead on that.

 

At the end of the day, this thread is already stretching what is allowed on DM.

[Madmorgan]

The fact that we are discussing this 25 years later shows that Harriet was on the money with developing this story arc the way it was. Lan, Morgase, and Mat said no and were forced against their will. Humor with us onlookers with the story has no bearing on whether Mat felt violated, in 1996 male rape was rarely discussed and I would assume an uncomfortable topic for a large demographic of RJs readers, which is why the arc was treated how it was. Rape in media was handled poorly until around 1988 when The Accused premiered. We have come a long way, 

[SingleMort]

I never personally saw this as rape but it definitely seemed dodgey. The reason I didn't see it as rape was it didn't appear there was any trauma involved. Mat seemed uncomfortable and confused by the situation but he never seemed to be suffering or in any genuine distress. You could argue there was sexual harrassment but I don't think Mat was raped and it seemed clear he had geuine feelings for Tylin

[DojoToad]

13 minutes ago, SingleMort said:

I never personally saw this as rape but it definitely seemed dodgey. The reason I didn't see it as rape was it didn't appear there was any trauma involved. Mat seemed uncomfortable and confused by the situation but he never seemed to be suffering or in any genuine distress. You could argue there was sexual harrassment but I don't think Mat was raped and it seemed clear he had geuine feelings for Tylin

So having a dagger thrust under his chin when he tried to stop her wouldn't count as trauma?  Would hate to live in that neighborhood.

[Agitel]

4 hours ago, SingleMort said:

I never personally saw this as rape but it definitely seemed dodgey. The reason I didn't see it as rape was it didn't appear there was any trauma involved. Mat seemed uncomfortable and confused by the situation but he never seemed to be suffering or in any genuine distress. You could argue there was sexual harrassment but I don't think Mat was raped and it seemed clear he had geuine feelings for Tylin

 

Mat gets physically sick in his anxiety that Elayne is convinced he's about to throw up.

 

He's constantly looking over his shoulder for his abuser both in the palace and on the streets.

 

He locks his door, barricades his room, avoids dinner, and can't sleep much for fretting she might send men to break in and take him to her.

 

He takes to searching his room to make sure she's not there hiding.

 

He feels like weeping at times over it.

 

This old topic highlights a lot of it:

 

A lot of the actions indicative of trauma and stress are so couched in humor you almost miss them, but I don't think it's hyperbole in this case. Mat also doesn't seem to understand what's happening to him either.

[SingleMort]

I get what you're saying but there are a few things with your conclusions that don't really add up to me.

 

1,) they describe the Mat and Tylin thing as a role reversal situation. I'd agree with that seeing as Mat is one of the more sexually active characters in the series and it is hinted he has often been "chasing girls" so to speak. However to say that the situation with Tylin was a role reversal and rape implies Mat himself is a rapist which is not something I have ever seen evidence of. I saw it more as Mat always been the pursuer in a sexual encounter and this is the first time he is the pursued which is why the situation felt so wrong to him. Given Mat is also not a novice at sexual relations I'm also pretty sure he'd recognise rape for what it was.

 

2,) the source you refer to does not appear to be a direct quote but rather a summary/paraphrasing of an answer during an interview. It is very brief and does not give a lot of detail. If this was rape why was this written with humour? RJ doesn't seem to be the sort of person who would find rape funny from what I know of him (which I grant isn't a great deal) so it seems odd he would write something so horrible with an almost whimsical twang. 

 

3,) The fact of the matter is the scenes with Mat and Tylin are not written in the same way and the scenes with Morgase and the Whitecloaks where there is absolutely nothing funny about those passages, so it seems clear we are not meant to view the situation with Morgase and the situation with Mat and Tylin in the same light otherwise the scenes would be a mirror of each other. 

 

But hey this is all just my opinion and I'm no authority on this subject matter it's just the way it came across to me when I read the books.

[SinisterDeath]

1 hour ago, SingleMort said:

1,) they describe the Mat and Tylin thing as a role reversal situation. I'd agree with that seeing as Mat is one of the more sexually active characters in the series and it is hinted he has often been "chasing girls" so to speak. However to say that the situation with Tylin was a role reversal and rape implies Mat himself is a rapist which is not something I have ever seen evidence of. I

He, and other characters may have framed it as a role reversal, but that in no way implies Mat is a rapist.

Mat pursues women, but that doesn't mean he pursues them like Myrddraal or a Trolloc would, does it? How mat chases women is inherently different than how Tylin pursued Matrim.

AFAIK, Mat has never pulled a knife on a barmaid whom denied his advances.
AFAIK, Matrim has never used his position of power to threaten a woman into sleeping with him or else.

 

1 hour ago, SingleMort said:

RJ doesn't seem to be the sort of person who would find rape funny from what I know of him (which I grant isn't a great deal) so it seems odd he would write something so horrible with an almost whimsical twang. 

The quote from RJ/Harriet is legit, even if it is only a "summary" of what was said.
https://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=65#2

Below is a footnote talking about it, that links to the same thing above.

 

Harriet explains that she liked that RJ dealt with a serious issue in a humorous way, and that she thought it was a good way to explain to men/boys what it's like for women/girls.

It's also a good reminder that Lord of Chaos was written in 1994. In the 90s and even today, many people do not believe a man can be raped by woman.

The other thing is, trhoughout the 70s and 90s, we have all manner of examples in media of rape being used as a punch line (Revenge of the Nerd: Vader), and Even in the 2000s, we still have examples in media of Men being raped as a joke.
 

1 hour ago, SingleMort said:

3,) The fact of the matter is the scenes with Mat and Tylin are not written in the same way and the scenes with Morgase and the Whitecloaks where there is absolutely nothing funny about those passages, so it seems clear we are not meant to view the situation with Morgase and the situation with Mat and Tylin in the same light otherwise the scenes would be a mirror of each other. 

Yea, they're two different scenes, written in two different ways.

Morgase was 100% a prisonner, and had no control over anything going on.
Matrim wasn't a prisoner like Morgase... But he was definitely a prisoner.

Matrim's chapters were always more light hearted than other characters.
Morgase's chapter was all about showing how bad the bad guys were.
Matrim's was about showing how bad and deceptive the good guys were.

[SingleMort]

I respectfully disagree that Mat was a prisoner. Mat could have left the palace any time he wanted. He often thinks about returning to the inn or even leaving the city but he never does. You also mention the scene with the knife but here I think we need to consider the Altaran cuture and the conventions of women in Ebou Dar. Women in this place are far more dominant than in places like Andor and often fight duels and even kill over disputes that might seem trvial. This is something that is a normal situation in Altara so I'm not sure we should be applying conventions and appropriate behaviour for the real world or even other societies in WoT to the Altaran culture. I'm am not saying that means it's okay for Tylin to pull a knife on Mat but I think someone pulling a knife in Ebou Dar does not mean the same as someone pulling a knife on you in Caemlyn. 

 

Furthermore this discussion has prompted me to revisit the WoT books (which can never be a bad thing) and I have found the below passages which while these may not convine anyone of my position, may at least help show why I take the position that I do. 

 

‘It isn’t natural,’ he burst out, yanking the pipestem from between his teeth. ‘I’m the one who’s supposed to do the chasing!’ Her astonished eyes surely mirrored his own. Had Tylin been a tavern maid who smiled the right way, he might have tried his luck – well, if the tavern maid lacked a son who liked poking holes in people – but he was the one who chased. He had just never thought of it that way before. He had never had the need to, before.
A Crown Of Swords:  (p. 504-505). 
 

This is written just after the first time Tylin and Mat have sex (or Mat is raped if you prefer). It appears to me Mat is not bothered by the sexual act that has occurred so much as HE was not the one who intiated it. He also suggests that it's Tylin's position of power that makes him uncomfortable and if she had been a maid (where it is likely he would have been the one to have a position of power) he might have tried his luck. This is also supported by the below line: 

 

He nearly wept again. He gave women presents. The world was standing on its head! Piglet? Oh, Light! After a minute, he did take the mask; she owed him that much, for his coat alone. 

 

Again he appears annoyed because HE is supposed to be the one who gives gifts

 

When Mat is about to leave Ebou Dar in book 6 he also says this

 

‘I’ll miss you, too,’ he muttered. To his shock, that was simple truth. He was leaving Ebou Dar just in time. ‘But if we meet again, I’ll do the chasing.’

A Crown Of Swords (p. 668).

 

I can't imagine anyone ever saying they'd miss the person who raped them and the second part about him doing the chasing even idicates he'd be open to having a sexual relationship with Tylin again providing HE was doing "the chasing"

 

Later in the next book he mentions his connection with Tylin in this way:

 

“I spend time with soldiers in taverns, when I can,” Mat replied sourly. When Tylin let him. Light, he might as well be married!

Winter's Heart: 9 (p. 366).

 

This suggests to me that Mat doesn't see himself as a prisoner or a victim but rather a kept man, a paramour in the thrall of a powerful woman. I could not imagine Morgase ever comparing her rape and captivicty to being married. Again at the end of book 9 Mat says this: 

 

“I am going to miss you,” he said quietly as he pushed her beneath the edge of the bed. To his surprise, he realized that he really would. Light!

Winter's Heart: 9  (p. 603).

 

This is the second time Mat says he will miss not being with Tylin and surprised at himself for feeling this. I know you can have toxic relationships and Stockholm syndrome or things like that but this really doesn't seem like that's what is going on here. 

 

Finally there is the reaction by Mat to Tylin's death 

 

Mat did not realize his knees had given way until he found himself sitting on the floor with his head buzzing. He could hear her voice. You’ll get your head cut off yet if you’re not careful, piglet, and I wouldn’t like that. Setalle leaned forward on the narrow bed to press a hand against his cheek in commiseration.

 

‘Did you care for Tylin so deeply?’ she said in a cautious voice. ‘Yes. No. Burn me, I liked her!’ Turning away, he scrubbed fingers through his hair, pushing the cap off. He had never been so glad to get away from a woman in his life, but this . . . ! ‘And I left her tied up and gagged so she couldn’t even call for help, easy prey for the gholam,’ he said bitterly. 

Crossroads Of Twilight: 10 (p. 131).

 

This suggests to me that Mat did genuinely care for Tylin even though he still felt uncomfotable about the role he played in their time together. I don't think he actually was in love with her but he clearly displays grief and sorrow at her death and clearly bears her no malice. Maybe Mat is just a much better person than me but I cannot say I'd grieve for someone who raped me. On hearing or their death I imagine my feelings would range from indifference to even satisfaction. 

 

Anyway this is just my overly long ramblings on a discussion that probably amounts to a "hill of beans in this crazy world" as Humphrey Bogart might say. Not sure how many more replies I should write on this it's obviously a pretty sensitive topic and I don't want to cause any offence. So this might possibly be my last post about this (also because I'm not sure what else I can contribute to the discussion).

Edited October 1, 2021 by SingleMort

[DojoToad]

You both put a lot of effort into your replies.  I don't mind multiple posts - that's how dialog works.  We're all being respectful while being on different sides - all good from my perspective.

 

My less eloquent thoughts: I don't get the comparisons between Mat and Morgase.  Very different situations with similar results.  One kept with a silk glove and the other with the iron fist, but both raped.  Don't believe anyone disputes that Morgase was raped.  But I still think Mat was as well.  He may have enjoyed himself through most of it, but even if it was mostly consensual, there was at least one time where Mat tried to say 'no' and Tylin pulled her knife to get her way.

 

A husband can rape his wife, so not understanding how Tylin didn't rape her significant other - just because he usually 'goes along' with it (while under duress) doesn't mean he can't say no at other times and expect to be respected.

[SinisterDeath]

1 hour ago, SingleMort said:

This suggests to me that Mat did genuinely care for Tylin even though he still felt uncomfotable about the role he played in their time together. I don't think he actually was in love with her but he clearly displays grief and sorrow at her death and clearly bears her no malice.

Many victims have feelings for their abuser. (Stockholm syndrome)
It may not make sense, it might seem preposterous... but that s the reality for victims of abuse, and unfortunately its not an uncommon.

 

1 hour ago, SingleMort said:

Anyway this is just my overly long ramblings on a discussion that probably amounts to a "hill of beans in this crazy world" as Humphrey Bogart might say. Not sure how many more replies I should write on this it's obviously a pretty sensitive topic and I don't want to cause any offence. So this might possibly be my last post about this (also because I'm not sure what else I can contribute to the discussion).

Thank you for keeping it civil, whether we agree to disagree or not. ? 

 

[Kalessin]

I thought it might be worth pointing out that what Berelain does in chasing Perrin is sexual harassment - unwanted sexual attention.

 

And also pointing out that RJ is simultaneously taking aim at the attitude amongst women that men have no feelings besides their glans penis, and the only permissible emotions for a male are lust and rage. Also the perception that a man enjoys any sexual attention he gets - I got a knife pulled on me once by one older woman for pointing out to her that we were still in the negotiation stage, instead of the getting down and dirty stage. Eventually she cooled down, but every time I hear about "don't be that guy!", I wonder, do women ever hear "Don't be that girl!"

 

We should compare and contrast the various sexual relations and attractions in WOT, from the ones where one person abuses and manipulates the other, to the ones of mutual attraction and respect.

[DojoToad]

37 minutes ago, Kalessin said:

I thought it might be worth pointing out that what Berelain does in chasing Perrin is sexual harassment - unwanted sexual attention.

Absolutely - had HR been a thing in RandLand, Berelain would have been fired early on.

[Elendir]

From all of Matt's attitude, I got the impression that he himself pursued women in same way. If Mat was raped, then Mat is a rapist and vice versa if not then .....

However, I do not claim to make clear judgments as to which of these variants it was.

 

EDIT: I would just like to add that at a time when there was an opinion that a man could not be raped, the same behavior was found legitimate, which today we consider a sexual assault.

Edited October 10, 2021 by Elendir