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Cauthon and Tylin arc/Morgase comparison (!Caution! Sensitive Topic - Read at Your Own Risk)


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7 hours ago, Elendir said:

From all of Matt's attitude, I got the impression that he himself pursued women in same way. If Mat was raped, then Mat is a rapist and vice versa if not then .....

However, I do not claim to make clear judgments as to which of these variants it was.

 

EDIT: I would just like to add that at a time when there was an opinion that a man could not be raped, the same behavior was found legitimate, which today we consider a sexual assault.

Not following your logic.  If you're comparing Mat to Berelain, I don't see the equivalency.  Mat pursued women, but seemed to have a knack for pursuing those that wanted to get caught.  I don't recall an incident of Mat being rebuffed and continuing the pursuit.  Maybe it can be implied, but don't believe it was shown outright like it was with Berelain - she was explicitly rebuffed numerous times and still continued the hunt; the definition of a sexual predator.

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22 hours ago, DojoToad said:

Not following your logic.  If you're comparing Mat to Berelain, I don't see the equivalency.  Mat pursued women, but seemed to have a knack for pursuing those that wanted to get caught.  I don't recall an incident of Mat being rebuffed and continuing the pursuit.  Maybe it can be implied, but don't believe it was shown outright like it was with Berelain - she was explicitly rebuffed numerous times and still continued the hunt; the definition of a sexual predator.

 

Aludra, Isendre and tavern girl south of Cairhien. We do not know the details and all cases are different. The only thing that they have in comon is the fact that Mat do not take NO as an answer.

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2 minutes ago, Elendir said:

 

Aludra, Isendre and tavern girl south of Cairhien. We do not know the details and all cases are different. The only thing that they have in comon is the fact that Mat do not take NO as an answer.

I don't remember clearly Mat's interactions with the Darkfriend Isendre.  I remember she used her body to get what she wanted, but doesn't mean she can't say 'no'.  I really don't recall Mat forcing himself on her, but it was a long series - I may have forgotten.

 

Would need a reference on the tavern girl south of Cairhien...

 

But Aludra, I thought was okay.  She enjoyed the kissing but kept a very tight leash on Mat.  There was a line she wouldn't cross and he respected that - to my recollection.  She never said I don't want you around me, just that's enough for tonight.

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On 10/10/2021 at 8:46 AM, Elendir said:

From all of Matt's attitude, I got the impression that he himself pursued women in same way. If Mat was raped, then Mat is a rapist and vice versa if not then .....

However, I do not claim to make clear judgments as to which of these variants it was.

 

EDIT: I would just like to add that at a time when there was an opinion that a man could not be raped, the same behavior was found legitimate, which today we consider a sexual assault.

 

We don't see Mat ever act the same way, and we see Mat internally think that when a woman tells him she's not interested he respects it. He thinks that in contrast to how Tylin doesn't take into account his wishes.

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On 10/12/2021 at 8:16 AM, DojoToad said:

I don't remember clearly Mat's interactions with the Darkfriend Isendre.  I remember she used her body to get what she wanted, but doesn't mean she can't say 'no'.  I really don't recall Mat forcing himself on her, but it was a long series - I may have forgotten.

 

Would need a reference on the tavern girl south of Cairhien...

 

But Aludra, I thought was okay.  She enjoyed the kissing but kept a very tight leash on Mat.  There was a line she wouldn't cross and he respected that - to my recollection.  She never said I don't want you around me, just that's enough for tonight.

I've just finished reading The Shadow Rising, and while Mat makes his intentions obvious to Isendre, she has no interest in him - she's after Rand, and she basically doesn't respond to Mat as he would like. So he doesn't get anywhere, and by the end of the book he's lost interest in her.

 

The tavern girl south of Cairhien? Betse Silvin, in Maerone? I've just checked, in Lord of Chaos, Ch 5, A Different Dance. She initiates the conversation with Mat - admittedly after he invites her to share a drink of wine with him - and asks him all sorts of embarrassing and difficult questions which show she has been watching him just as avidly as he alleges he has been watching her. The inn owner, Mistress Daelvin, is keeping an eye on all this, and she does not throw him out, so he does not overstep any boundary she has in place to protect her serving girls. And to top it all off, Mat asks her to dance, to music he has shared with the musicians and she accepts - and enjoys it.

 

So we've seen Mat in action, with a woman who is fascinated by him, and he keeps a very tight rein on his behaviour with her.

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Mat pursued Isender actively, although she was not interested in him. Sure, as a darkfriend, it was a game on her part, but it was clear in the book through Rand's eyes that she was running from Mat. Sexual predators often consider such resistance to be feigned, regardless of whether or not it is.
Mat changed his interest because he got involved with another female darkfriend and Isendra became a convict of Far Dareis Mai.

 

The pub girl south of Cairhien enjoyed Mat's company, ,ut she thought it was purely a social matter. Mat, on the other hand, took it as a seducing with sex as ending and mentally commented that she was talking too much if it was worth it.
Innkeeper did not act as a protector. The girl got free of the work in the inn so she could keep Mat company. Rich customers need to be satisfied.
So I'm not sure how much room for CONSENT she would have between Mat the rich customer and the innkeeper the boss.

 

Aludra knew steps better then Mat so she keep things the way she wanted. It wasn't because Mat respected her boundaries, but because she could set and enforce them.

What I'm writing here is not for tarn on Mat. I just want to point out one Elayne quote "Taste your own medicine".

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Let's see, The Shadow Rising, Chapter 37:

Quote

Mat shivered. He could not imagine sharing living quarters with that woman. It would be like sharing with a bear with a sore tooth. Isendre, now. . . . That face, those lips, that swaying walk. If he could get her away from Kadere, maybe she would find a young hero-the dust creatures could be ten feet tall, for her; he would give her every detail he could remember or invent-a handsome young hero more to her liking than a stuffy old peddler. It was worth thinking about.

First time we see Mat thinking about Isendre. Then we get this:

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That was where Mat spent most of his time, dicing with the drivers-until they realized he won a very great deal more often than he lost, no matter whose dice he used-engaging Kadere or Natael in long talks at every opportunity, pursuing Isendre. It was clear what was on his mind from the first time he grinned at her and straightened his hat, the morning after the Trolloc attack. He spoke to her nearly every evening for as long as he could, and pricked himself so badly plucking white blossoms from a spiky-thorned bush that he could barely handle his reins for two days, though he refused to allow Moiraine to Heal him. Isendre did not precisely encourage him, but her slow, sultry smile was hardly calculated to drive him away, either. Kadere saw--and said not a word, though sometimes his eyes followed Mat like a vulture's. Others did comment.

And that's when Keille Shoagi, Lanfear's disguise, offers to sell her to him for a Tar Valon mark. Predictably Isendre is outraged, and we don't see her for a while until Mat speaks to her in chapter 50, after the Trolloc/Draghkar attack at Cold Rocks:
 

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Isendre stood at the top of the steps to Kadere's wagon, frowning at nothing. Even with her brows furrowed she was beautiful behind that misty scarf. He was glad that at least his memories of women were his own.
"The Trollocs are done," he told her, leaning on his spear so she would be sure to notice it. No point risking having my skull split without getting a little good out of it. No effort at all was needed to sound tired. "A hard fight, but you're safe, now."
She stared down at him, face expressionless, eyes glittering in the moonlight like dark, polished stone.
Without a word she turned and went inside, slamming the door. Hard.

Mat expelled a long, disgusted breath and stalked away from the wagons. What did it take to impress the woman?

 

And that's the last we see of Mat trying to impress Isendre. The next we see Isendre in Chapter 57, she's just picked up a gold coin Mat has tried to flip, just before the Taardad enter Alcair Dal and Lanfear takes a cruel and brutal revenge on Isendre for making eyes at Rand.

 

We see Mat at times through Rand's eyes, but mostly we see Mat through Mat's eyes. And so we see that Isendre's mastered the art of the come-here-go-away.

 

As far as Mistress Daelvin and keeping order in her inn, The Golden Stag, goes, we might like to consider why Nalesean is wary of her ...

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Mistress Daelvin would have been all over any man she thought was behaving improperly—despite her placid appearance, she kept a short cudgel in her skirts and sometimes used it; Nalesean still eyed her carefully when she came close—but if a free-spending man wanted a dance, what was the harm in that?

Not to forget, it's Betse who first gets her hands on him:

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Leaning forward, she pushed his scarf down with a finger. He had not been paying attention, and had let it slip, a little. "What is this?" She ran her finger along the pale thickened ridge that circled his neck. "Did someone try to hang you? Why? You are too young to be a hardened scofflaw." He pulled his head back and hastily retied the black silk to hide his scar, but Betse was not put off. Her hand dipped into the unlaced front of his shirt to pull up the silver foxhead medallion he wore on a leather thong. "Was it for stealing this? It looks valuable; is it valuable?"

Now if it had been Mat sticking his hand down her dress, you might have a point, but ...

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 10/20/2021 at 7:53 AM, Kalessin said:

Let's see, The Shadow Rising, Chapter 37:

First time we see Mat thinking about Isendre. Then we get this:

And that's when Keille Shoagi, Lanfear's disguise, offers to sell her to him for a Tar Valon mark. Predictably Isendre is outraged, and we don't see her for a while until Mat speaks to her in chapter 50, after the Trolloc/Draghkar attack at Cold Rocks:
 

And that's the last we see of Mat trying to impress Isendre. The next we see Isendre in Chapter 57, she's just picked up a gold coin Mat has tried to flip, just before the Taardad enter Alcair Dal and Lanfear takes a cruel and brutal revenge on Isendre for making eyes at Rand.

 

We see Mat at times through Rand's eyes, but mostly we see Mat through Mat's eyes. And so we see that Isendre's mastered the art of the come-here-go-away.

 

As far as Mistress Daelvin and keeping order in her inn, The Golden Stag, goes, we might like to consider why Nalesean is wary of her ...

Not to forget, it's Betse who first gets her hands on him:

Now if it had been Mat sticking his hand down her dress, you might have a point, but ...

 

Do you understand, that quoting selected passages from book, where scenes are spread through several chapter say nothing about whole picture?

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14 hours ago, Elendir said:

 

Do you understand, that quoting selected passages from book, where scenes are spread through several chapter say nothing about whole picture?

I understand perfectly well how not to twist an argument. In this case I quoted all the passages that referred to both Mat and Isendre. I also quoted the first passage that deals with Mat and Betse, as I did not feel any need to quote the second passage in the same chapter, where Mistress Daelvin permits all her staff to dance with the officers of the Band of the Red Hand who are in her inn. And I've learnt over the years, to let the evidence speak for itself.

 

Isendre was not encouraging enough for Mat to maintain his initial interest. So he took it as "No", not a firm "No", but a "No" all the same. And as for

Quote

but it was clear in the book through Rand's eyes that she was running from Mat.

we actually see her through Egwene's eyes, running in her dreams from something terrifying, but that's after she's both stuffed up through her greed and been betrayed by Lanfear, and Darkfriends' bosses are notoriously unsympathetic about failure. I doubt that Mat would count as something that terrifying, since he backed off once he understood she wasn't interested.

 

If you like, I can quote from the entire series, in exhaustive detail. I have read it.

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1 hour ago, Kalessin said:

I understand perfectly well how not to twist an argument. In this case I quoted all the passages that referred to both Mat and Isendre. I also quoted the first passage that deals with Mat and Betse, as I did not feel any need to quote the second passage in the same chapter, where Mistress Daelvin permits all her staff to dance with the officers of the Band of the Red Hand who are in her inn. And I've learnt over the years, to let the evidence speak for itself.

 

Isendre was not encouraging enough for Mat to maintain his initial interest. So he took it as "No", not a firm "No", but a "No" all the same. And as for

we actually see her through Egwene's eyes, running in her dreams from something terrifying, but that's after she's both stuffed up through her greed and been betrayed by Lanfear, and Darkfriends' bosses are notoriously unsympathetic about failure. I doubt that Mat would count as something that terrifying, since he backed off once he understood she wasn't interested.

 

If you like, I can quote from the entire series, in exhaustive detail. I have read it.

 

You chose only those scenes that fit your interpretation. This pattern of behavior is actually at the origin of this thread.


The Knife incident is interpreted as the only important aspect of the relationship between Mat and Tylin.
The result of such an approach is then equating it with the Morgase incident.
Some people here have tried to point out that the relationship between Mat and Tylin was much more complicated than such simplistic conclusions. However, their arguments fell on barren ground. Therefore, I decided to implement a similar approach of your interpretation only in the opposite view, demonizing of Mat.


It's funny that I got reactions according to which Mat is actually the biggest gentelman in the world. So where did the negative opinions of women that Mat is rascal came from?

Your posts are the perfect opposite to mine. Only I am aware of my extreme position. After all, I have only hold the mirror all that time.

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As much as you would like to get actual quotes from RJ or his wife, below is the extent you will get. About 30 years ago in America, a grown man being raped by a grown woman will be laughed at or will be put in another category than a grown woman was raped by a grown man. 

 

The reality is that a grown man being raped by a grown woman is mostly modern Western cultural concept. Many older generations in America will laugh at this concept as well because they have different definition of rape. In fact, the US Justice Dept changed the definition of rape in 2012 to include men. The simple answer is that most modern Western culture will say "yes, it is a rape". Older generations and most of the other non-Western cultures will laugh at people who will say this is rap.

 

https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/blog/updated-definition-rape

 

 “Forcible rape” had been defined by the UCR SRS as “the carnal knowledge of a female, forcibly and against her will.”  That definition, unchanged since 1927, was outdated and narrow. It only included forcible male penile penetration of a female vagina. The new definition is:

“The penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim.” 

ROBERT JORDAN

RJ wrote the Mat/Tylin scenario as a humorous role-reversal thing. His editor, and wife, thought it was a good discussion of sexual harassment and rape with comic undertones. She liked it because it dealt with very serious issues in a humorous way. She seemed to think it would be a good way to explain to men/boys what this can be like for women/girls, showing the fear, etc.
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As far as rape goes, John Howard Griffin in Black Like Me made an interesting point in one of his later chapters, recounting the trip hitching in the car of an aggressively "white" individual, who boasted of his sexual conquests of African American women who could not say no and keep their jobs. November 24:

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I wondered what moral and ethical difference there was between this sort of rape by coercion that threatened to starve a person, and rape by coercion that threatened to knife or shoot a person. Newspapers play up as sensational every attempt by a Negro to rape a white woman. Yet this white rape of Negro women is apparently a different matter. But it is rape nonetheless, and practiced on a scale that dwarfs the Negro’s defaults.

It's the principle I apply to the Question of Mat and Tylin ... coercion is coercion ...

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7 hours ago, Kalessin said:

It's the principle I apply to the Question of Mat and Tylin ... coercion is coercion ...

The life is complex and simplistic blanket statements like "coercion is coercion" do not help illuminate the issue. That sounds all holier than thou, that's really insulting to women. To claim that a sexual predator coerced a woman and the woman was unable to make intelligent and discerning rejection is truly insulting to women. That's clearly a different case than an adult male who raped a woman on the Philly train and she was physically unable to fend him off. 

 

While you can make some statement about losing jobs or supporting the family, but still a choice. Some choices may bear higher consequences, but the first woman had a choice to walk away. The second woman has no choice at all. That's what the law and definition of rape is. It's a horrifying experience for a woman to have no choice at all and physically unable to resist.

 

This is written in WoT regarding Mat:

  • Mat is a 20 year old man and we all know how strong the libido is at that age
  • Mat is one of the deadliest warriors in the world... he could have taken away Tylin's knife away if he really wanted to.
  • While Mat likes to initiate flirtations, he pretty much limits to kisses and pinching
  • Mat thinks he is being harmless, but in reality he is causing great distress on many women who are looking for husbands. He is toying with their emotions... really hurting them as human beings.
  • Mat while disclaiming to be a farmer , but in reality, he is a powerful and highly successful attractive young man. He associates with nobles. He acts like a noble. Even most nobles bow to him.
  • Mat like other Emond's Field (EF) heroes have little respect for the Kings and Queens. Basically, you can't make the case that he folded because Tylin is a queen. We have always seen that he don't give a crap if a king or queen goes against his beliefs like other EF heroes.

Mat loves being the "conqueror". He loves battles because he loves being the conqueror. His only complaint afterward with Tylin is that he wasn't the one who "chased" her. Why did Mat have sex with Tylin? He is a 20 year old young man with an attractive 40 year old grinding on him. He won't be able to resist his sexual urges.

 

What RJ and Harriet wrote was to teach Mat regarding "sexual harassment"... not RAPE. While Mat is a hero, he has some dark sides. He does not see harms he is causing to some women. Look at Aludra. He really hurt his feelings. In the book series, many women innkeepers are wary of Mat's behavior. Setalle Anan talk to him about this behavior.

 

It's important to read author's intentions. You can of course disagree because the series was written like 30 years ago with different definitions of rape.

 

 

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5 hours ago, boldnbeautiful said:

You can of course disagree because the series was written like 30 years ago with different definitions of rape.

 

From a purely penological standpoint, obtaining sexual favors by means of threat or extortion has been defined as rape for much longer than the last 30 years. In fact, sex that is

Quote

accomplished against the victim’s will by threatening to use the authority of a public official to incarcerate, arrest, or deport the victim or another, and the victim has a reasonable belief that the perpetrator is a public official.

is defined as rape and has been since well before Eye of the World was published. (See California Penal Code section 261).

 

So while there is a valid discussion to be had about whether Mat is a reliable narrator in terms of his relationship with Tylin, there's no question that a monarch with the entire power of the State at her disposal commits rape when she leverages that position to obtain sex from an unwilling individual. 

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On 10/30/2021 at 11:48 PM, Elendir said:

 

You chose only those scenes that fit your interpretation. This pattern of behavior is actually at the origin of this thread.


The Knife incident is interpreted as the only important aspect of the relationship between Mat and Tylin.
The result of such an approach is then equating it with the Morgase incident.
Some people here have tried to point out that the relationship between Mat and Tylin was much more complicated than such simplistic conclusions. However, their arguments fell on barren ground. Therefore, I decided to implement a similar approach of your interpretation only in the opposite view, demonizing of Mat.


It's funny that I got reactions according to which Mat is actually the biggest gentelman in the world. So where did the negative opinions of women that Mat is rascal came from?

Your posts are the perfect opposite to mine. Only I am aware of my extreme position. After all, I have only hold the mirror all that time.

Well, let's look at Mat from the point of view of someone who knows him very, very well, that of the newly appointed Amyrlin, Egwene - and remember, she's been around to observe him since before the start of the series:

Lord of Chaos, chapter 39

Quote

Nynaeve gave ground stubbornly. Mat was wrongheaded; he would say "down" if they said "up" just to spite them. He could make trouble nailed up inside a barrel. They constantly would have to be dragging him out of taverns and gambling dens. Toward the end she was reduced to claiming that Mat would probably pinch Elayne the first time her back was turned, and Egwene knew they were overcoming her objections. Mat certainly gave a lot of time to chasing after women, which Egwene could hardly approve, but Nynaeve surely knew as well as she that for all of looking when and how he should not, he seemed to have an uncanny knack for' picking women who wanted to be chased, even the most unlikely.

So that's supposed to make him a sexual predator? Doing what a woman wants is supposed to make the man a sexual predator? From my experience, not doing what a woman wants is likely to get your manhood called into question - and that is emotional blackmail, I'm afraid. (I'm surprised more men don't become monks.)

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12 hours ago, boldnbeautiful said:

He is a 20 year old young man with an attractive 40 year old grinding on him. He won't be able to resist his sexual urges.

I really hope you are talking about Mat only and do not think like that of men in general. And just because Mat has a strong libido does not mean he should want every woman no matter the circumstances.

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9 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

I really hope you are talking about Mat only and do not think like that of men in general. And just because Mat has a strong libido does not mean he should want every woman no matter the circumstances.

Didn't I say Mat? This will be true to many 20 year old young men who aren't married or promised to anyone. They would have struggled just like Mat. RJ is not making Mat to be some holy saint in the book. 

 

Look at examples given in the book. Mat thinks Elayne is pretty, but he knows his bounds. However, there are times he is playing his flirtatious games without considerations for those women. That's the point RJ is making.

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18 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

 

From a purely penological standpoint, obtaining sexual favors by means of threat or extortion has been defined as rape for much longer than the last 30 years. In fact, sex that is

is defined as rape and has been since well before Eye of the World was published. (See California Penal Code section 261).

 

That's California law and RJ didn't live in California. The definition of rape linked below was changed in 2012 the US Justice Dept. I am promoting Tylin's behavior. However, the definition of rape to include men is a recent change in the United States. In fact, most countries in the world do not hold to the US definitions.

 

If you want to retroactively believe to be rape, then that's fine. However, I don't think we should be approach from revisionist history in reading someone else's work. Shakespeare's work and Jane Austen novels... they all portray messages from each writer's perspective. I find it ludicrous for people to deny the original intent instead of just disagree with the past's morality. Leave the work as is.. we don't need anymore revisionism.

 

https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/blog/updated-definition-rape

 “Forcible rape” had been defined by the UCR SRS as “the carnal knowledge of a female, forcibly and against her will.”  That definition, unchanged since 1927, was outdated and narrow. It only included forcible male penile penetration of a female vagina. The new definition is:

“The penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim.” 
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10 minutes ago, boldnbeautiful said:

That's California law and RJ didn't live in California. The definition of rape linked below was changed in 2012 the US Justice Dept. I am promoting Tylin's behavior. However, the definition of rape to include men is a recent change in the United States. In fact, most countries in the world do not hold to the US definitions.

 

If you want to retroactively believe to be rape, then that's fine. However, I don't think we should be approach from revisionist history in reading someone else's work. Shakespeare's work and Jane Austen novels... they all portray messages from each writer's perspective. I find it ludicrous for people to deny the original intent instead of just disagree with the past's morality. Leave the work as is.. we don't need anymore revisionism.

 

https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/blog/updated-definition-rape

 “Forcible rape” had been defined by the UCR SRS as “the carnal knowledge of a female, forcibly and against her will.”  That definition, unchanged since 1927, was outdated and narrow. It only included forcible male penile penetration of a female vagina. The new definition is:

“The penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim.” 

Ummm, no.

Your quick google search managed to find a change made in 2012 for purposes of record keeping. The UCR SRS is the "Uniform Crime Report Summary Reporting System" and has to do with the way the Feds keep track of Statewide data.

 

In South Carolina - where Jordan lived - there was no reference to gender as of at least 1977 when the current sexual assault statute was adopted. That statute (section 16-3-652) criminalizes situations where any individual submits to a sexual battery as a result of  "forcib le confinement, kidnapping, trafficking in persons, robbery, extortion, burglary, housebreaking or any other similar offense or act." 

 

So - again - Tylin's acts would have been rape in 1990 South Carolina. Pointing this out is not "revisionist history". 

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 11/2/2021 at 4:08 AM, Kalessin said:

Well, let's look at Mat from the point of view of someone who knows him very, very well, that of the newly appointed Amyrlin, Egwene - and remember, she's been around to observe him since before the start of the series:

Lord of Chaos, chapter 39

So that's supposed to make him a sexual predator? Doing what a woman wants is supposed to make the man a sexual predator? From my experience, not doing what a woman wants is likely to get your manhood called into question - and that is emotional blackmail, I'm afraid. (I'm surprised more men don't become monks.)

 

I believe, that Mat is as much sexual predator as Tylin-Mat situation is same with Valda-Morgase situation.
I see Tylin-Mat as very different from Valda-Morgase situation, so you can guess what I think about Mat.
My activity at this discussion is inspired purely by purposeful arguments some did to make Tylin-Mat as same situation as Valda-Morgase.
There was only one thing, which forced Mat to stay at Tarasin palace. His promise to Rand. Knife, Queen, Starving, nothing from this would be problem, which he could not overcome.
Yes, "the promise" was sacred for Mat, but would it be the cause to let him be raped and raped?

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On 11/19/2021 at 3:37 PM, Pembie said:

Hmm I didn’t think that bit was written very well at all Nyaeve and Elayane just laughed at Mat when I told them and then he even kind of brushed it off so I was left thinking that is a very odd reaction to rape or was it even rape 

 

 

I think we're deep enough into the discussion to not need Spoiler Alerts - so here's his explanation to Elayne:

Quote

"You listen to me! That woman won't take no for an answer; I say no, and she laughs at me. She's starved me, bullied me, chased me down like a stag! She has more hands than any six women I ever met. She threatened to have the serving women undress me if I didn't let her—" Abruptly, what he was saying hit him. And who he was saying it to. He managed to close his mouth before he swallowed a fly. He became very interested in one of the dark metal ravens inlaid in the haft of the ashandarei, so he would not have to meet her eyes. "What I mean to say is, you don't understand," he muttered. "You have it all backwards." He risked a glance at her under the edge of his hatbrim.

So we see that Queen Tylin is not a woman who takes no for an answer, and she's got the resources to enforce that.

So far the only response I've seen to the presentation of the evidence has been a routine declaration that coercion coming from a woman is not coercion, and that therefore Mat could not have been coerced into sex. Plus of course the equally routine insistence that previous sexual history justifies the coercion suffered - it's basically what Elayne says.

Quote

Before she darted beyond hearing, he heard her chortle something about "a taste of his own medicine."

Which however, does not include not taking no for an answer.

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