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imlad

What would you want to tell Rafe Judkins about making the show?

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I forgot 1 more important thing...PLEASE KEEP THE BAD BLOOD & BLOODY ASHES WORDS, MOTHER"S MILK IN A CUP!!!

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Yes because our bad words are never used there and it would be completely to here Mat and Elayne drop F bombs instead their mother's milk in a cup

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While I agree that the is no modern swear words written in the series, there are multiple points in the books where a character has a large amount of “colorful language that would make your mother blush”. Uno Nomesta being one character that has an extreamly vibrant vocabulary. When these moments are described in the series, I think we all have a pretty good idea of the words used as our imaginations are at work placing our modern vulgar tendencies in his rants. I doubt we are pausing in our reading/listing to come up with new swearwords he could be using. Don’t get me wrong I would love to hear Uno get super creative in his profanity... One of the reasons I love Uno is my tendency to use twisted and creative cursing... However, it is unlikely... Thus... #expectfbombs 

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50 minutes ago, bmarluke said:

While I agree that the is no modern swear words written in the series, there are multiple points in the books where a character has a large amount of “colorful language that would make your mother blush”. Uno Nomesta being one character that has an extreamly vibrant vocabulary. When these moments are described in the series, I think we all have a pretty good idea of the words used as our imaginations are at work placing our modern vulgar tendencies in his rants. I doubt we are pausing in our reading/listing to come up with new swearwords he could be using. Don’t get me wrong I would love to hear Uno get super creative in his profanity... One of the reasons I love Uno is my tendency to use twisted and creative cursing... However, it is unlikely... Thus... #expectfbombs 

NO...I reject your reality & insert my own ... LOL...I want Mother's Milk in a Cup or Flaming dot dot dot, cuz if you just use modern curse words then it will become ordinary.  While I know this is probably not going to happen because we have to cater to a larger audience, DAMMIT, I want my quirky name calling your "Nerf Herder" :P

 

 

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You can basically make anything a swear word and also some of WOT cursing is British, I'm positive bloody is and I don't know what else. There are plenty of inventive ways to fantasy curse other substituting F bombs and what not.

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1 hour ago, Lancer said:

NO...I reject your reality & insert my own ... LOL...I want Mother's Milk in a Cup or Flaming dot dot dot, cuz if you just use modern curse words then it will become ordinary.  While I know this is probably not going to happen because we have to cater to a larger audience, DAMMIT, I want my quirky name calling your "Nerf Herder" 😛

 

 

 

HA! Sorry for the confusion... BUT NO. There bloody better be Mother's Milk in a Cup, Flaming, bloody and others in the show... (Envision a King Baby sized fit over twitter if this gets  dropped...)

 

I was just saying that when the books are not clear which other words are used, we will likely hear the f bomb or others. It would be awesome to hear some flaming goat lover or the like... But I'm not holding my breath.

 

 

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7 hours ago, bmarluke said:

While I agree that the is no modern swear words written in the series, there are multiple points in the books where a character has a large amount of “colorful language that would make your mother blush”. Uno Nomesta being one character that has an extreamly vibrant vocabulary. When these moments are described in the series, I think we all have a pretty good idea of the words used as our imaginations are at work placing our modern vulgar tendencies in his rants. I doubt we are pausing in our reading/listing to come up with new swearwords he could be using. Don’t get me wrong I would love to hear Uno get super creative in his profanity... One of the reasons I love Uno is my tendency to use twisted and creative cursing... However, it is unlikely... Thus... #expectfbombs 

 

6 hours ago, Lancer said:

NO...I reject your reality & insert my own ... LOL...I want Mother's Milk in a Cup or Flaming dot dot dot, cuz if you just use modern curse words then it will become ordinary.  While I know this is probably not going to happen because we have to cater to a larger audience, DAMMIT, I want my quirky name calling your "Nerf Herder" 😛

 

 

 

The way I hope, and pretty much expect, it to be done is to use the RJ-cursing we're all used to from the books in all the situations where the equivalent dialog in the book is something like "'Blood and bloody ashes!' Mat said." But when it turns into something more like "Uno walked away spouting words that made Elayne blush." I expect there to be modern swearing, yes including f-bombs. And the reasons are best explained in the video below, which uses the show Deadwood as its subject. [CAUTIONARY TRIGGER WARNING: THE VIDEO CONTAINS A LOT OF SWEARING, I MEAN A LOT OF IT]*

 

 

I firmly believe that if they stick to just Jordanesque cursing on the show, and nothing else, the show will shed viewers fast, and Amazon will end up cancelling it. We need some modern day strong language to be used on the show to make it believable to the modern audience and to keep their interest. We are already going to have nudity and graphic violence as well as scary as heck monsters, so it isn't as if the language will put them over the edge on any rating system, they're already R or TV-MA as it is. The Wheel of Time is not a kids show. It is easier to hide the darker and more unpleasant side of things (and those that others deem unpleasant) in a book than it is in film or television, you just don't put down in writing the descriptions of the thing you don't want seen. But in film, it can be much harder to avoid that thing from being seen by the camera. Robert Jordan took advantage of this with his writing in several ways, giving the series the veneer of being "kid friendly" (or at least teen friendly). Nevermind the crazy amounts of gore, amounts that would get a movie an R rating. Not that I'm complaining.

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* All swearing in this video is done for educational purposes only. And by the way, the video does go on a little tangent, at least for our purposes, about the people living in the historical Deadwood and their relationship to the rest of society.

Edited by imlad

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1 hour ago, imlad said:

 

 

The way I hope, and pretty much expect, it to be done is to use the RJ-cursing we're all used to from the books in all the situations where the equivalent dialog in the book is something like "'Blood and bloody ashes!' Mat said." But when it turns into something more like "Uno walked away spouting words that made Elayne blush." I expect there to be modern swearing, yes including f-bombs. And the reasons are best explained in the video below, which uses the show Deadwood as its subject. [CAUTIONARY TRIGGER WARNING: THE VIDEO CONTAINS A LOT OF SWEARING, I MEAN A LOT OF IT]*

 

 

I firmly believe that if they stick to just Jordanesque cursing on the show, and nothing else, the show will shed viewers fast, and Amazon will end up cancelling it. We need some modern day strong language to be used on the show to make it believable to the modern audience and to keep their interest. We are already going to have nudity and graphic violence as well as scary as heck monsters, so it isn't as if the language will put them over the edge on any rating system, they're already R or TV-MA as it is. The Wheel of Time is not a kids show. It is easier to hide the darker and more unpleasant side of things (and those that others deem unpleasant) in a book than it is in film or television, you just don't put down in writing the descriptions of the thing you don't want seen. But in film, it can be much harder to avoid that thing from being seen by the camera. Robert Jordan took advantage of this with his writing in several ways, giving the series the veneer of being "kid friendly" (or at least teen friendly). Nevermind the crazy amounts of gore, amounts that would get a movie an R rating. Not that I'm complaining.

-------------------------------------------------------------

* All swearing in this video is done for educational purposes only. And by the way, the video does go on a little tangent, at least for our purposes, about the people living in the historical Deadwood and their relationship to the rest of society.

 

This is where I definitively and categorically disagree. There are far, far too many examples of outstanding TV and movies that have almost no swearing in them, who have gone on to reach cult status, critical acclaim, and billions in revenues. If this series focuses on the battles, gore, and nudity, it will probably do fine. I will just hate it and pull a Kesey on its sorry @ss. (in reference to Ken Kesey refusing to watch the One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest movie after the script was basically stolen and mangled.)  Naw, just kidding, I'd watch it, but still piss and moan about it over a pint.

 

I can totally see fame and fortune any way they go here. The story is just that good. GOT proved tits and blood works. Star Wars proved that deep character development, no boobs, no swearing, and special effects works. (Nerf herder??) LOTR proved that a cult following can propel a book into a blockbuster movie even though there where MAJOR transgressions on the story in the making... (I love both.) Both have their own place.

 

I guess what I am saying here is, making broad sweeping statements of failure is pointless. Getting pissed off over the casting is pointless. This story is great and the TV show good or bad will not change my mind on that. IF this show crosses too many lines, the community will be pissed and I'm guessing the show will still do fine. BUT remember, we have some outstanding talent on our side and we NEED to remember they are fighting for Jordan's vision. Harriet McDougal, Brandon Sanderson, and many, many others are working on making this one of the best flaming, bloody, mother milk in a cup TV show we have ever seen. (thank you)

 

OH, lastly, WOT can absolutely be for kids. I would recommend 10+. As the story is a bit too complicated for younger... But, this series is no darker than the last two books of Harry Potter or The Hunger Games. Which I might add was for sale at my daughters 5th grade book fair... (WTF?!) WOT COULD be made in a way so it didn't warrant an R rating. I for one, hope they do. It will let the story be shared with more people. And it will mean that the story mattered more than the tits and gore... Which, in my humble opinion, it should.

 

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The Battlestar Galactica remake is one of the best series I have ever seen, and they used their own world-speak of Frak always ... and it was never a 'kids show' at any level.

 

Using Jordan-esque language, which is in large part British-sounding euphemisms to curse, is a must. Part of world-building, especially a world NOT YOUR OWN, is unique (to us) language to convey relatable (to us) emotions. Audiences aren't stupid, they get it quick. Well some audiences ARE stupid, but those aren't the ones you want I hope.

 

You know the first thing I noticed about The Witcher which turned me off and squarely gave me the impression right away that it was a shallow show? When that young girl (I don't know her name because I could care less, but she is in the first episode and is the one that eventually runs away from the town she is in after her King & Queen parents are killed) says 'Gross' while sitting in that throne room. There is a lot of tween-speak in that series I am guessing, and it sounds utterly stupid. Actually, there are a LOT of issues with that series, but this was one of them I noticed first.

Edited by redgiant

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My main hope is that the incredibly detailed, relevant and necessary-to-show back story, the history of Randland, is used a lot. There are obvious flashbacks and references, whether verbal or visual, that are absolutely critical to nail in terms of how they are placed and when they are conveyed to the audience.

 

The passage of long Eras of time, the motivation behind a lot of why things happen they way they do, the rich history and world-building it evokes are not unlike the LotR or the Silmarillion in Tolkiens' very detailed and immense histories, languages and other details he invented to make you feel a complete world is there.

 

A few examples that have to be included as flashbacks, narrated 'old stories' in some form, or else 🙂. They will likely be out-of-place in some of them wrt where we normally would think of them occurring per the books, but they better be there somewhere ...

 

- Lews Therin/Dragonmount formation (too bad it sounds so far like they aren't planning a prologue in Ep. 1 jut like the books)

- The Birth, Gitara's scene (likely flashes back to Gitara's foretelling, and later what she saw and Tam coming upon it)

- The Collam Dan breaking, Somesheshta's task

- all of the Foresaken's storylines harking back to what they were known for or what they did

- THE RINGS IN RHUIDEAN is huge of course, tying a lot of explanation to things we would have seen happen so far in the series

- Manetheren's fall, Emond's Field evolution

- Artur Hawkwing, Birgit, etc - who they are and why they are powerful (so the Horn scenes are big)

Edited by redgiant

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On 3/2/2020 at 8:09 AM, Lilith said:

Please let the Aiel have Australian accents. Please.

That would be great. I have a feeling they will be Russian accents. We'll see.

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Posted (edited)

Every time I read a Q&A with Rafe my faith in his vision for the show strengthens. He seems like a genuine fan who I feel confident will do justice by the series. 

 

If I could make requests, it'd be asking him to flesh out the Black Tower story a lot more than what we got of it in the books. He's already on the right track by building up Logain's role. 

 

I'd also like to see Perrin and Mat's other realities in the Flicker sequence and see how that shapes their decisions going forth. But that's a bonus. 

Edited by Carebear Sedai

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4 minutes ago, Carebear Sedai said:

I'd also like to see Perrin and Mat's other realities in the Flicker sequence and see how that shapes their decisions going forth. But that's a bonus. 

 

I wonder if the "flicker sequence" (I'm assuming you mean the Portal Stone scene) is going to be used as Ingtar's "big reveal." Maybe make it a montage of each character that gives the audience a little hint.

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Posted (edited)

I think, first book can be Morain centred very well. We can get introduced of Emonds 5 as she do.

Then she will vanish completely at second book, and Rand will take most of time.

Third book will be again connected with “disappearing” of MC from book before and Perin or super girl can follow in same pattern.

This way, attention will be distributed between characters.

Edited by Elendir

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19 hours ago, Elendir said:

Third book will be again connected with “disappearing” of MC from book before and Perin or super girl can follow in same pattern.

This way, attention will be distributed between characters.

Except that Mat doesn't vanish from the third book. He takes up a good chunk of the story, and it's when we're first truly introduced to his Great Luck. And his decision to free the girls from the Stone is a pivotal moment in his character arc.

 

None of those characters are really "missing" from the story. During book 2, Moiraine is in Arafel learning about Balefire... which becomes crucial later, so it may deserve to have some screentime, with Moiraine commenting that what she is doing is forbidden and can result in her being stilled and birched if the Tower ever found out. That would instruct the audience of the dangers of Balefire in an organic way, rather than through sloppy exposition later in the story when she fries the darkhound pack.

 

You can have episodes that focus primarily on one or two main characters (in fact, it should be done this way to maintain episodic focus and avoid "information overload"), but I wouldn't go more two or three episodes without at least touching upon what one of the main six characters is doing.

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I expect we'll see all the main characters in every episode (with some exceptions) for the fist season at least, but the focus is gonna shift around. For the episode titles we already know I expect something like this...

 

Leavetaking - Rand/Moiraine primary focus

Shadow's Waiting - Mat primary focus

A Place of Safety - Perrin/Egwene focus

The Dragon Reborn - Rand primary focus 

Blood Calls Blood - ? 

The Flame of Tar Valon - Moiraine/Rand focus

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Blood calls Blood could the Andoran episode as he's royalty, even if no one but readers know that. Even though it's a call back to the dark prophecy, I hardly think one has anything to do with the other as it's too early.

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On 4/1/2020 at 12:46 PM, Effete said:

Except that Mat doesn't vanish from the third book. He takes up a good chunk of the story, and it's when we're first truly introduced to his Great Luck. And his decision to free the girls from the Stone is a pivotal moment in his character arc.

 

None of those characters are really "missing" from the story. During book 2, Moiraine is in Arafel learning about Balefire... which becomes crucial later, so it may deserve to have some screentime, with Moiraine commenting that what she is doing is forbidden and can result in her being stilled and birched if the Tower ever found out. That would instruct the audience of the dangers of Balefire in an organic way, rather than through sloppy exposition later in the story when she fries the darkhound pack.

 

You can have episodes that focus primarily on one or two main characters (in fact, it should be done this way to maintain episodic focus and avoid "information overload"), but I wouldn't go more two or three episodes without at least touching upon what one of the main six characters is doing.

 

Morain's visit to Adelaas and Vandene is hardly essential. We just know that she spent some time studying there and that she was attacked. Most have taken place off-page, so it can easily take place off-screen. Morain can then briefly discuss this in the next section.

I didn't write anything about Mat's absence in the third book. There is a difference between focusing on a character and ignoring others.


My whole idea was based on the fact that Morain is presented as the main character in the present description of the WoT serial. I would like to keep this first book.

Morain then has several acts in the second book, but nothing extensive. If she left space to Rand, it would be clear that the Books aren't about Morain. Rand is then most of the third book off-page. Viewers can find out that even though it is Dragon Reborn again, it's not just only about him.

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48 minutes ago, Elendir said:

 

Morain's visit to Adelaas and Vandene is hardly essential. We just know that she spent some time studying there and that she was attacked. Most have taken place off-page, so it can easily take place off-screen. Morain can then briefly discuss this in the next section.

 

Whole-heartedly disagree!

 

The difference between good television and bad television is the way exposition is used. If you arbitrarily have Moiraine "briefly discuss" her absence when she meets back up with the others, that's an example of bad exposition; it's only there for the viewer's benefit and often makes very little sense in the context of the story. Why would Moiraine just blurt out that she learned a forbidden weave to people who she can't be certsin wouldn't go blabbing their mouths? It makes no sense, and it's completely against Moiraine's character. This is precisely what I was referring to when I mentioned "sloppy exposition" in my previous post.

 

Furthermore, it's something she does not even do in the books. She does not explain where she was to anybody, at least not in any great detail, so you'd be adding scenes that simply never existed... as opposed to adding scenes that we know existed, but just happened off page. You tell me, which is a more faithful adaptation?

 



I didn't write anything about Mat's absence in the third book. There is a difference between focusing on a character and ignoring others.

 

 

Sure, and I agreed that episodically you can (and should) focus on a couple characters, but not for the entire arc of the book. Mat has a rather prominent role in Book Three to simply "cut" him from the story. His escape from the White Tower leads to Tear, where he breaks into the Stone to rescue the girls, and this event has a resonating effect later on in Ebou Dar that is a pivotal moment for Elayne and her relationship with Aviendha.

 

Besides, viewers need to know how Mat gets to Tear because he needs to accompany Rand into the Waste. Are you just going to have him magically pop-up when the Shadow Rising story arc begins? That's another example of bad writing: chatacters just showing up wherever they need to be because the plot demands it.

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Besides, Moraine's arafel adventure is where we first interact with Dragkar as we only hear them in EoTW. We also find out more of the prophecies so that probably needs be there. In addition, you probably will want your nominal star in as many of the beginning seasons as you possibly can.

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Posted (edited)
On 4/4/2020 at 12:59 PM, Effete said:

Sure, and I agreed that episodically you can (and should) focus on a couple characters, but not for the entire arc of the book. Mat has a rather prominent role in Book Three to simply "cut" him from the story. His escape from the White Tower leads to Tear, where he breaks into the Stone to rescue the girls, and this event has a resonating effect later on in Ebou Dar that is a pivotal moment for Elayne and her relationship with Aviendha.

 

Read my contribution first please, and do not put there words, which are not there.

 

23 hours ago, mistborn82 said:

Besides, Moraine's arafel adventure is where we first interact with Dragkar as we only hear them in EoTW. We also find out more of the prophecies so that probably needs be there. In addition, you probably will want your nominal star in as many of the beginning seasons as you possibly can.

 

If only Morain will be "star" after first book, then series will be at very dark spot. They can use here very well et first book, but if they will stay with her as number one in others .....

Edited by Elendir

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Moiraine / Rosamund Pike has the Eddard Stark / Sean Bean role in the first season. She she's a veteran actress who will be the initial center of attraction to get everything started. She doesn't get killed like Stark but the emphasis shifts away. I rememeber the first time I read the book and at first she was the most interesting character through which everything flowed. Lan was next and the kids slowly emerged as it went on.

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