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What would you want to tell Rafe Judkins about making the show?


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13 minutes ago, Thrasymachus said:

We learn quite a bit about her, actually.  We learn more about her abilities, and how they've always driven a wedge between herself and those around her.  We learn how much she dislikes them, and how much of a sacrifice it is for her to be in a city full of Aes Sedai and Warders, where she can't escape her powers.  We learn how much she hates sitting around and doing nothing, and hates how much her talents are being wasted by the Amrylin, who doesn't seem to really believe in them.  We learn lots of little things about her character: her wit, her underlying femininity in spite of wearing boy's clothes, her loyalty to her friends, her maturity that rivals or exceeds Nynaeve's in being able to overcome Galad's good looks, and her faith in the Pattern.  And some things that set up interesting subversions later on, like her distaste for the Seanchan practice of keeping slaves and actually leashing damane.

 

If she replaces Hurin, she's not a major part of the plot.  Hurin doesn't get any development apart from Rand.  In fact, he doesn't get any at all.  He's a sycophant to Rand who's learning to deal with people being sycophantically loyal to him for the first time.  Hurin's not necessary to the plot because he tracks the Horn.  That's literally the least important thing about him.  That could be replaced by ta'veren; every time Rand feels like he's losing the trail, he could close his eyes, jump in the air and spin about, and just go in the direction he's pointing.  It could be replaced by Loial having an innate sense of prior violence and evil, which would be consistent with Ogier disliking violence and their role as peacekeepers in the Age of Legends.  It could be replaced by Selene showing up with some ter'angreal to help them find their way out.  Hurin's necessary to the plot because he sucks up to Rand constantly, in spite of being told not to, calling him "Lord Rand," bowing and knuckling his forehead and taking his least suggestion as a command, and Rand learning to deal with that despite his feeling like he's not worthy of that kind of devotion.  That's not a role Min should take up.  It would definitely make her a mere appendage to Rand from that point on, rather than being her own character, with her own reasons for pursuing Rand and loving him.

All valid points. Still like my idea, but that's the beauty of literature - it truly is subjective.

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Regarding Min....I wouldn't be surprised to see her join the main party in Baerlon (spelling?) and travel with the group to the Eye, rather than disappear for a book's worth of story before re-appearing in Tar Valon. She can go to the White Tower when Egwene and Nyn do and nothing of any real importance changes from the books, but it keeps the character around.

 

As for the Eye....I think that sequence is important enough you have to keep it, but it's disconnected from the rest of the series enough to justify some adjustments and clarification. 

 

The army at the Gap is necessary for the spectacle; I mean this is the moment when we find out for certain that Rand can channel and leaves us 99% sure he's the Dragon, and burning a couple zombie looking Forsaken to ash isn't as visually impressive as smiting an entire army of trollocs, saving the Borderlands, and preventing a invasion. This also begins Rand's legend, as plenty of soldiers saw him at the Gap (though they don't realize it's Rand at the time). This moment is when Rand stops running and starts fighting back. It's a pivotal moment and you can't mess with that aspect too much.

 

But the Eye itself is too nebulous in the books for the show to leave as-is. The fact that nobody is sure what it's true purpose is supposed to be is fine; that's a common theme in the books. But its lack of connection to the prophesies, it's lack of obvious purpose, and the degree to which it's hidden.....there's too many unknowns here to make for a satisfying resolution. The Eye is better protected than anything else in the series, including crystal swords and little statues of people, and we never know why. I think this could be solved simply by including the Eye in the prophesies and/or dreaming up a clear purpose for it; is the Eye there to help cleanse the Source? Is it there to give the Dragon a power boost in the Last Battle? Are the Dragon's allies supposed to tap into the Eye so they can equal the Forsaken and dreadlords? Whatever answer you come up with, the fact that Rand burns it all up defending the Gap makes the victory bittersweet; Rand gets his Big Hero moment and staves off a full invasion of trollocs, kills two Forsaken.....and the forces of Light are left without a weapon they're seemingly meant to have. Moriaine and the rest can fret over that loss and try to find contingencies/replacements for seasons upon seasons afterwards, which gives the Eye a degree of weight it doesn't have in the books. 

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9 minutes ago, Ascended said:

Regarding Min....I wouldn't be surprised to see her join the main party in Baerlon (spelling?) and travel with the group to the Eye, rather than disappear for a book's worth of story before re-appearing in Tar Valon. She can go to the White Tower when Egwene and Nyn do and nothing of any real importance changes from the books, but it keeps the character around.

 

As for the Eye....I think that sequence is important enough you have to keep it, but it's disconnected from the rest of the series enough to justify some adjustments and clarification. 

 

The army at the Gap is necessary for the spectacle; I mean this is the moment when we find out for certain that Rand can channel and leaves us 99% sure he's the Dragon, and burning a couple zombie looking Forsaken to ash isn't as visually impressive as smiting an entire army of trollocs, saving the Borderlands, and preventing a invasion. This also begins Rand's legend, as plenty of soldiers saw him at the Gap (though they don't realize it's Rand at the time). This moment is when Rand stops running and starts fighting back. It's a pivotal moment and you can't mess with that aspect too much.

 

But the Eye itself is too nebulous in the books for the show to leave as-is. The fact that nobody is sure what it's true purpose is supposed to be is fine; that's a common theme in the books. But its lack of connection to the prophesies, it's lack of obvious purpose, and the degree to which it's hidden.....there's too many unknowns here to make for a satisfying resolution. The Eye is better protected than anything else in the series, including crystal swords and little statues of people, and we never know why. I think this could be solved simply by including the Eye in the prophesies and/or dreaming up a clear purpose for it; is the Eye there to help cleanse the Source? Is it there to give the Dragon a power boost in the Last Battle? Are the Dragon's allies supposed to tap into the Eye so they can equal the Forsaken and dreadlords? Whatever answer you come up with, the fact that Rand burns it all up defending the Gap makes the victory bittersweet; Rand gets his Big Hero moment and staves off a full invasion of trollocs, kills two Forsaken.....and the forces of Light are left without a weapon they're seemingly meant to have. Moriaine and the rest can fret over that loss and try to find contingencies/replacements for seasons upon seasons afterwards, which gives the Eye a degree of weight it doesn't have in the books. 

 

I think they are skipping Baerlon and going from Camelyn to Tar Valon directly

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4 minutes ago, johnnysd said:

 

I think they are skipping Baerlon and going from Camelyn to Tar Valon directly

 

No way. Too fast.

Episode 1:

Beginning (Gitara's foretelling) - flight from Emond's field.

 

Episode 2:

Taren ferry to the flight from Baerlon.

 

Episode 3:

Shadar Logoth and Fain's backstory

 

Episode 4

Rand and Mat's journey to Camelyn

Perrin and Egwene meet Elyas and the Tinkers

Introduction to Logain (his capture)

 

Episode 5:

Rand and Logain's meeting in Camelyn; Elaida meets Rand

Egwene & Perrin captured

 

Episode 6:

Moiraine gathers the party, they flee through the Ways

 

Episode 7:

The Eye

 

Episode 8:

Arrival in Fal Dara; meeting with Siuan

Fain's escape.

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3 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

 

No way. Too fast.

Episode 1:

Beginning (Gitara's foretelling) - flight from Emond's field.

 

Episode 2:

Taren ferry to the flight from Baerlon.

 

Episode 3:

Shadar Logoth and Fain's backstory

 

Episode 4

Rand and Mat's journey to Camelyn

Perrin and Egwene meet Elyas and the Tinkers

Introduction to Logain (his capture)

 

Episode 5:

Rand and Logain's meeting in Camelyn; Elaida meets Rand

Egwene & Perrin captured

 

Episode 6:

Moiraine gathers the party, they flee through the Ways

 

Episode 7:

The Eye

 

Episode 8:

Arrival in Fal Dara; meeting with Siuan

Fain's escape.

 

We will see, I think they are going to bring the early Tar Valon stuff from TGH into season 1 . I do agree with Episode 7 but I think there will be some resequencing with Padan Fain stuff happening either in Caemlyn or Tar Valon

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We need Baerlon for the stag and lion I believe where the boys end up line dancing with their scary authority figures.

Fain will probably get adjusted a great deal too as some mystery is good but I think a limited explanation for Mordeth will be invented. For how crucial Shadar Logoth is to the series, we never get an explanation beyond Mordeth is a different evil, unless there's more in the BWB or the other one.

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9 minutes ago, mistborn82 said:

We need Baerlon for the stag and lion I believe where the boys end up line dancing with their scary authority figures.

Fain will probably get adjusted a great deal too as some mystery is good but I think a limited explanation for Mordeth will be invented. For how crucial Shadar Logoth is to the series, we never get an explanation beyond Mordeth is a different evil, unless there's more in the BWB or the other one.

 

Yes they do need to keep that moment as it is their last moment of innocence. I would prefer Baerlon to be there as several important things happen including this scene

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15 hours ago, mistborn82 said:

We need Baerlon for the stag and lion I believe where the boys end up line dancing with their scary authority figures.

Fain will probably get adjusted a great deal too as some mystery is good but I think a limited explanation for Mordeth will be invented. For how crucial Shadar Logoth is to the series, we never get an explanation beyond Mordeth is a different evil, unless there's more in the BWB or the other one.

Baerlon also sets up the Whitecloaks and the fact that Fain is chasing them. It's 100% critical. 

 

I think they will condense all of Mat and Rand's encounters with darkfriends on the Camelyn Road into one interaction with "the Grinwells" who will all turn out to be darkfriends. This will take the place of Howal Gode and the girl in the stable. 

 

After they escape, they'll make it straight to Camelyn. 

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18 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Baerlon also sets up the Whitecloaks and the fact that Fain is chasing them. It's 100% critical. 

 

I think they will condense all of Mat and Rand's encounters with darkfriends on the Camelyn Road into one interaction with "the Grinwells" who will all turn out to be darkfriends. This will take the place of Howal Gode and the girl in the stable. 

 

After they escape, they'll make it straight to Camelyn. 

 

It's another city for them to produce and it is really expensive. All of these things can be done on the road. Nynaeve would catch up with them in Caemlyn. I would be psyched to see Baerlon but it seems so logical to cut it

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3 minutes ago, johnnysd said:

 

It's another city for them to produce and it is really expensive. All of these things can be done on the road. Nynaeve would catch up with them in Caemlyn. I would be psyched to see Baerlon but it seems so logical to cut it

Baerlon is a location that you can film by shooting your Emond's Field set from different angles. In addition to using some existing Czech country and architecture, they might need one set and a few CGI shots. I don't think it is prohibitively expensive.

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10 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Baerlon is a location that you can film by shooting your Emond's Field set from different angles. In addition to using some existing Czech country and architecture, they might need one set and a few CGI shots. I don't think it is prohibitively expensive.

 

Like I said I am all for it, it is a great part of the story it is just my suspicion of what happens

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For Baerlon, you probably only need the Stag and Lion to be a full building whereas everything else is just fronts and you have the whitecloak encounter at the gate, drop the other one. You might use Shadar Logoth for more than one city because that one will be expensive and used a few times if they get that far.

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On 7/17/2020 at 8:28 AM, Elder_Haman said:

Baerlon is a location that you can film by shooting your Emond's Field set from different angles. In addition to using some existing Czech country and architecture, they might need one set and a few CGI shots. I don't think it is prohibitively expensive.

 

I am not sure if you watch it but The Alienist is amazing at using CGI to recreate NYC in 1897. It could be used for Baerlon effectively and I hope they use it to make the cities really feel epic in WOT something GOT never quite accomplished.

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After reading LOTS of speculation on various sites, there is some REALLY well thought out advice and pretty strong opinions. I suppose Rafe needs to tune it out and stick to his vision and be informed by those on his team and trusted advisors etc. I suspect most of the advice either aligns or doesn’t and it’s really too late for most to affect production anyway. 


That being said:

I have heard a variety of guesses on how mature the content will be.  I admit there are examples of well done less mature fantasy series (LOTR).  Often fantasy series tend to appear low budget (this apparently won’t thankfully), and often overly cheesy. I think one of the reasons GOT succeeded was avoiding cheesiness, in part with great writing and acting, and in part because of the grittiness and unflinching depictions.  I know it’s a balance between approachability to all audiences and the more mature GOT type audience, but with that recent excellent example of how well a show like that can be, I guess I would be most interested in that side of things.  I recently read an article on fansided where Rafe replied to a question on maturity rating with: I want it to feel adult but be approachable to audiences. Reading that makes me worry punches will be pulled and the story won’t feel as consequential. But we will see. I would rather this be a change from Chuck or Marvel Agents of Shield in terms of tone, but I guess we’ll see...

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On 7/26/2020 at 4:15 PM, dssharp said:

After reading LOTS of speculation on various sites, there is some REALLY well thought out advice and pretty strong opinions. I suppose Rafe needs to tune it out and stick to his vision and be informed by those on his team and trusted advisors etc. I suspect most of the advice either aligns or doesn’t and it’s really too late for most to affect production anyway. 


That being said:

I have heard a variety of guesses on how mature the content will be.  I admit there are examples of well done less mature fantasy series (LOTR).  Often fantasy series tend to appear low budget (this apparently won’t thankfully), and often overly cheesy. I think one of the reasons GOT succeeded was avoiding cheesiness, in part with great writing and acting, and in part because of the grittiness and unflinching depictions.  I know it’s a balance between approachability to all audiences and the more mature GOT type audience, but with that recent excellent example of how well a show like that can be, I guess I would be most interested in that side of things.  I recently read an article on fansided where Rafe replied to a question on maturity rating with: I want it to feel adult but be approachable to audiences. Reading that makes me worry punches will be pulled and the story won’t feel as consequential. But we will see. I would rather this be a change from Chuck or Marvel Agents of Shield in terms of tone, but I guess we’ll see...

 

I think this is a good topic for a new thread... Going to start one.

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  • 4 months later...
On 6/20/2020 at 6:37 PM, SinisterDeath said:

If I had a super power, it would be spotting fake accounts, spam bots, etc.

Like, that hot girl/guy on facebook that sent you a friend request?
Total bot. STILL see people just blindly 'accepting' those invites. 
 

 XD I fell for that one about 6 years ago. Luckily it didn't get far.

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On 12/12/2019 at 12:05 PM, Lancer said:

Dear Rafe,

 

1. Do NOT skimp on the Channelling SFX...They need to be Amazing NOT Cheezy!

 

2. Swordplay needs to be Realistically Epic.  Since these are mainly Katana's the swordplay needs to be quick & nasty.  Funk Nasty not STINKY Nasty

 

3. Can the Two Rivers Long Bow, be a Composite Great Bow?  aka Recurved Greatbow that is a cross btw an English Longbow & a Recurved Bow?  That way it is nearly impossible to wield w/o training?

#1. Totally agree. This show will be nothing without a passionate commitment to SFX, set design and wardrobe.

#2. This is a great point! The book faithful, who will be the initial foundation of any series fan-base, will go postal without Kurosawa quality battles and tactics.

#3. Just FYI from a archery nerd, Don't let a Welshman hear you say 'English longbow' lol.

But seriously; I think just a classic Welsh longbow as portrayed fairly well in Game of Thrones and Braveheart is all we need. The idea of a composite longbow to me would be too much of a stretch realistically speaking. Much like your comment on swordplay, I would want to see equal attention paid to the accuracy of archery depiction.

 

All in all, great comments!

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i am most worried about battle strategy, as the vast majority of movies get it awfully wrong.

battles in movies are mostly the kind ordering charge, then the mass of soldiers run disorderly against each other, and the battle focuses on many individual duels. formations? coordinations? what's this? even when they are used, they are grossly misused (see the infamous scene in the hobbit with the elves jumping over a shield wall, defying the entire purpose of the shield wall itself)

it doesn't help that most people in hollywood are against war. guys, you are also against killing, yet you have no problems depicting them correctly in a movie.

 

so i hope, among all the many advisors, rafe also hires someone well versed in medieval warfare, and listens to their suggestions

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For the amount of money they're spending, one would hope they have military historians on the payroll. My guess is they will because of all the different cultures but the boys at least are good with a weapon to start. Rand gets good with the sword plus you a strategist for Mat, if the show gets that far from Book 4 on, he's basically an instant general.

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10 hours ago, mistborn82 said:

For the amount of money they're spending, one would hope they have military historians on the payroll.

the witcher also had a lot of money, but they screwed up military real bad. it's the only part of that show i didn't like. i didn't watch game of thrones, but i'm told battles also were rendered very poorly there.

for some reason, movies seem extremely reticent to show real military strategy

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1 hour ago, king of nowhere said:

for some reason, movies seem extremely reticent to show real military strategy

Producers & Investors are dedicated to selling a product for consumption. They'll put shows in front of test audiences to see how they like it. "Real" Battle strategies, aren't exciting to the mass population. They're exciting to historical battle nerds.

Showing something like this, isn't very exciting on the screen.
 


Seeing a bunch of elves jump over a shield wall, is exciting.
Seeing people cleave people in two, is exciting even though it's not practical.
Seeing form-fitting suits is exciting, even though it's not the most practical.

 

The vast majority of Audiences prefer exciting action over "reality".

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4 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

Producers & Investors are dedicated to selling a product for consumption. They'll put shows in front of test audiences to see how they like it. "Real" Battle strategies, aren't exciting to the mass population. They're exciting to historical battle nerds.

Showing something like this, isn't very exciting on the screen.
 


Seeing a bunch of elves jump over a shield wall, is exciting.
Seeing people cleave people in two, is exciting even though it's not practical.
Seeing form-fitting suits is exciting, even though it's not the most practical.

 

The vast majority of Audiences prefer exciting action over "reality".

which is exactly why i'm worried. it's not much a matter of realism, but of being so nonsensical as to become cringeworthy.

still, there is some hope there, because a key trait of mat is his battle skill, and they need to show it somehow. can you imagine that plot if they keep up with hollywood tactics?

 

Bashere: "soldiers! charge!

soldiers charge in a disorderly mess at the masses of trollocs, get slaughtered

Lan: "the shadow has corrupted our generals! doom is upon us!"

Elayne: "mat, your ter'angreal makes you immune to compulsion, right? you're in command of the army"

Mat: "Ok, then. Soldiers! Charge!"

soldiers charge in a disorderly mess at the masses of trollocs exactly like before

Galgan: "this man is a military genius!"

Fortuona: "he is, isn't he?"

🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️

 

furthermore, i am surethey can make battle strategy exciting if presented in the proper light. Netflix made the queen's gambit where they managed to make chess exciting to the masses, and i would have never believed it possible. if it's possible to make chess exciting to a mass of people who has no idea what's happening on a chessboard, then it's possible to make anything exciting.

Finally, even if you try to spectacularize stuff, i'm sure there can be a compromise without hurting the brain of anyone watching the battle with a bit of common sense. In ten seconds they can show a quick panoramic with the warious forces arrayed in neat formations and a general ordering platoon 13 to move forward and relieve the 9th chivalry, and then go back to showing people  being cleaven in two and Lan showing off his ludicrous swordsmanship

Edited by king of nowhere
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Military strategy in a fantasy epic is like technobabble in a sci-fi epic.  It doesn't really matter that it's nonsense, as long as it sounds good, and somebody in the writer's room is paying attention to consistency.  

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27 minutes ago, Thrasymachus said:

Military strategy in a fantasy epic is like technobabble in a sci-fi epic.  It doesn't really matter that it's nonsense, as long as it sounds good, and somebody in the writer's room is paying attention to consistency.  

Pretty much.

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