Tainted Minds - A Black Tower Mafia Game: Game over - Town wins

[Ironeyes]

 

 

D1 Final Count

SK (5) - Dice, Marsh, Ley, DJ, Ben

Marsh (1) - Sooh

Ben (6) - Nolder, LZM, Nini, BFG, Clov, Cory

Ley (1) - SK

 

Not Voting:

 

would scum split their vote? I like ironeyes or ley for scum here. Or do they follow cory to get town points. hmmmmmmm. If anyone did follow cory it would be clov. This is probably town auto win. Cops could out and make things even more spicy. Ironeyes said something about why he plays bad. I forget what it was being scummy not scum, but going through with the lynch anyways because reasons. It probably makes him win out over ley imo. I await for lzm to do something as well.

 

n0 guilty lzm

n1 innocent niniel

Yeah lol I'm more scummy than Ley because I was more adamant about lynching you. OMGUS all day long. 

[Clovdyx]

 

Something something cops have wrong peeks.

 

Sure, but with two true seers and one insane seer, I imagine shooting in the group of people with ~correct peeks would be the optimal move.

I mean it's a guess, but it's all pretty irrelevant. Nolder's dead. We won't know why until post-game. It's a guess :P

 

 

1) Was half about the setup, was half about knowing my alignment.

2) I am really unhappy with myself right now.

[Cory Caboose]

ily clov. i accept you and support you in these troubled times

[Cory Caboose]

as long as i can have an orange peanut

[Ironeyes]

is there any possibility the village would allow me to strongarm a lynch today? :angel:

 

i am almost entirely sure it will end in a wolf flip, and will give us another day before we have to pour through the seer mechanics, which looks like its gonna be soon :P

What's your case on Dice? 

 

 

"But Clov, you said you would vote SK and..."

 

And I did it. I had a lynch more or less secured on him for half the phase. And nobody would have challenged me on letting it go through...but I moved off to vote the traitor I figured out was my teammate.

You're floundering. I'd suggest take a few minutes to compose yourself.

The confirmation bias is real tho

[Clovdyx]

as long as i can have an orange peanut

 

I have an orange peanut.  It's for you.

 

 

I'm out for the rest of the night.  I'll try to do better tomorrow.

[Cory Caboose]

 

is there any possibility the village would allow me to strongarm a lynch today? :angel:

 

i am almost entirely sure it will end in a wolf flip, and will give us another day before we have to pour through the seer mechanics, which looks like its gonna be soon :P

What's your case on Dice? 

 

--->

 

Some problems I have with Dice's content

 

- BFG noted that dice did not react to SK's self-vote the way dice normally would. Dice explained he was waiting to see what Nolder did; Nolder did the opposite of what dice expected, but he was talked out of pursuing it in a meaningful way incredibly quickly. Nothing in that sequence felt like genuine dice. I am not sure if he didn't know how to handle BFG calling him out on something very out of character for him and pretended it was a strategy as a [convenient lie], or if he plotted it in advance. In the first scenario, he's always a wolf - dice wouldn't tell a meaningless lie as a villager, he'd just explain himself. In the second scenario, I doubt he does that and then immediately disengages from it as soon as Nolder gives some rational for it. Dice is an attacker, and when he sees something suspect, he attacks. I'm not saying he'd tunnel Nolder, but he'd at least follow up and try to discern Nolder's alignment rather than just accepting his answer and never thinking about it again.

 

- His reads on re-entry have been very thin. His read on Niniel was okay, but it's a read he'd be heavily expected to make as a villager and I'd guess he's very aware of that. Moreso, a handful of weak-ish townreads and no real attack from dice are perpetually poor signs.

 

- Even in his brief entries into the game, his level of engagement and outward reach are all basically zero. Even on limited time, dice is someone who very much will at least attempt to reach out to people and try to work in his own way to figure out their alignments. His reads this game have been reactionary and sluggish. I have been in games with dice he's hopped out of his wolf range in literally 5-8 posts, not through volume, but just by showcasing his thought process and making meaningful reads he processed through his internal filter. It's utterly absent here.

 

 

I just got done playing with Dice at JN, and somebody claimed scum D1 just like SK did here. Dice immediately went pro "policy lynch anyone claiming scum".

 

Pretty sure that's what he did this game too. Went straight for SK.

 

Other than that I have no quarrel with the rest of that summation Cory. A lot of it feels like meta reads to me.

 

 

re: Dice & SK; Dice does do the policy lynch anyone claiming scum thing, but it's usually just an element of his game.

 

Here, it's basically his entire game. He has no interest in other people's alignments, it's basically the only thing resembling a scum read. And he never pursues SK in a meaningful way besides the vote & a few times going "SK claimed scum so I'm gonna lynch him".

 

Doing what people expect you to do is ipso facto how many players approach playing mafia, and dice is included in this. I care much more about what people don't do.

[Cory Caboose]

I'm not sure it'll matter to some of you, but feel free to ask BFG/Niniel/Clov/Sooh about my historical accuracy reading dice in mafia games.

[Shitsure Kamimashita]

 

 

 

D1 Final Count

SK (5) - Dice, Marsh, Ley, DJ, Ben

Marsh (1) - Sooh

Ben (6) - Nolder, LZM, Nini, BFG, Clov, Cory

Ley (1) - SK

 

Not Voting:

 

would scum split their vote? I like ironeyes or ley for scum here. Or do they follow cory to get town points. hmmmmmmm. If anyone did follow cory it would be clov. This is probably town auto win. Cops could out and make things even more spicy. Ironeyes said something about why he plays bad. I forget what it was being scummy not scum, but going through with the lynch anyways because reasons. It probably makes him win out over ley imo. I await for lzm to do something as well.

 

n0 guilty lzm

n1 innocent niniel

Yeah lol I'm more scummy than Ley because I was more adamant about lynching you. OMGUS all day long. 

 

Maybe I was being vague or had bad phrasing especially with my feelings toward ley. Oh well. Your so called reason for a lynch is self admittedly bad. and you confessed that you could not read me, but you can read me here? You say your philosophy is to lynch scummy people irregardless of their alignment. which is just poor play and refusing to think critically. I refuse to assume that you are this bad of a player as town or maybe you are hell I wouldn't know. I think how I scumhunt is pretty clear. I throw myself into town and up against walls to go into the lynch pit. and I scumhunt off my wagon. You can call it omgus, but I know my alignment and I know shady susp weak arguments when I see them. Clovs reason to vote me was even worse than yours he "forgot" their was still a day left.  I wouldn't worry about it too much. I'm just one guy why are you feeling so threatened by me that you felt the need to respond to a pretty harmless post?

[Ironeyes]

 

It's only for today Clov :P

 

Though I actually am pretty sure you're a villager now outside of my other assumptions, so lol thats nice right?

 

Are you sure?  I kind of want more people to accuse me of being really incompetent scum.

I want this framed on my wall 

 

Some problems I have with Dice's content

 

- BFG noted that dice did not react to SK's self-vote the way dice normally would. Dice explained he was waiting to see what Nolder did; Nolder did the opposite of what dice expected, but he was talked out of pursuing it in a meaningful way incredibly quickly. Nothing in that sequence felt like genuine dice. I am not sure if he didn't know how to handle BFG calling him out on something very out of character for him and pretended it was a strategy as a [convenient lie], or if he plotted it in advance. In the first scenario, he's always a wolf - dice wouldn't tell a meaningless lie as a villager, he'd just explain himself. In the second scenario, I doubt he does that and then immediately disengages from it as soon as Nolder gives some rational for it. Dice is an attacker, and when he sees something suspect, he attacks. I'm not saying he'd tunnel Nolder, but he'd at least follow up and try to discern Nolder's alignment rather than just accepting his answer and never thinking about it again.

 

- His reads on re-entry have been very thin. His read on Niniel was okay, but it's a read he'd be heavily expected to make as a villager and I'd guess he's very aware of that. Moreso, a handful of weak-ish townreads and no real attack from dice are perpetually poor signs.

 

- Even in his brief entries into the game, his level of engagement and outward reach are all basically zero. Even on limited time, dice is someone who very much will at least attempt to reach out to people and try to work in his own way to figure out their alignments. His reads this game have been reactionary and sluggish. I have been in games with dice he's hopped out of his wolf range in literally 5-8 posts, not through volume, but just by showcasing his thought process and making meaningful reads he processed through his internal filter. It's utterly absent here.

Ah. There's your case. Not quite strong enough to lynch just based on this IMO, but if you're certain...

[Ironeyes]

I'm not sure it'll matter to some of you, but feel free to ask BFG/Niniel/Clov/Sooh about my historical accuracy reading dice in mafia games.

That definitely matters to me. And I saw your case later, sorry. I catch up zander style when I'm low on time and when I'm on mobile. Or both. 

[Cory Caboose]

I'm about as certain as I get. Even if I'm wrong, I think it's the correct course for today. But I think I'm right :P

 

Put me down as 82% confident

[Ironeyes]

 

 

 

 

D1 Final Count

SK (5) - Dice, Marsh, Ley, DJ, Ben

Marsh (1) - Sooh

Ben (6) - Nolder, LZM, Nini, BFG, Clov, Cory

Ley (1) - SK

 

Not Voting:

 

would scum split their vote? I like ironeyes or ley for scum here. Or do they follow cory to get town points. hmmmmmmm. If anyone did follow cory it would be clov. This is probably town auto win. Cops could out and make things even more spicy. Ironeyes said something about why he plays bad. I forget what it was being scummy not scum, but going through with the lynch anyways because reasons. It probably makes him win out over ley imo. I await for lzm to do something as well.

 

n0 guilty lzm

n1 innocent niniel

Yeah lol I'm more scummy than Ley because I was more adamant about lynching you. OMGUS all day long. 

Maybe I was being vague or had bad phrasing especially with my feelings toward ley. Oh well. Your so called reason for a lynch is self admittedly bad. and you confessed that you could not read me, but you can read me here? You say your philosophy is to lynch scummy people irregardless of their alignment. which is just poor play and refusing to think critically. I refuse to assume that you are this bad of a player as town or maybe you are hell I wouldn't know. I think how I scumhunt is pretty clear. I throw myself into town and up against walls to go into the lynch pit. and I scumhunt off my wagon. You can call it omgus, but I know my alignment and I know shady susp weak arguments when I see them. Clovs reason to vote me was even worse than yours he "forgot" their was still a day left.  I wouldn't worry about it too much. I'm just one guy why are you feeling so threatened by me that you felt the need to respond to a pretty harmless post?

When on earth did I "confess I couldn't read you?" Dude this exact BS is why I wanted to lynch you and still do. You twisted my words yesterday, and you're twisting them again today. It's shade throwing, and it's scummy. I know everyone else is going to clear you based on Ben's actions but they don't measure up against scummy crap like this in my mind. Maybe your play style is just one that pings me no matter what, but until that becomes abundantly clear over the course of many games, I will continue to suss you for this crap. 

 

Stating that I will lynch scummy people regardless of alignment is not the same as saying my reason to lynch is weak. I don't know your alignment, or anyone else's, so all I can see is your play. I will treat your play as your alignment and by those measures, you are scum and deserve to die. 

 

And I reacted strongly (and continue to do so) because I absolutely HATE being misrepped. HATE IT. 

[Ironeyes]

I'm about as certain as I get. Even if I'm wrong, I think it's the correct course for today. But I think I'm right :P

 

Put me down as 82% confident

Alright, I'm with you then. If for nothing else than to keep myself from going berserk over SK 

[v]Dice[/v]

[Andrej]

Vote Count

Clov (2) - LZM, SK
Dice (3) - Cory, Marsh, Sooh Edited September 20, 2017 by Andrej

[Cory Caboose]

dicetosser1. I was wrong before, but I see it now: the Wagon that was Promised. We live in a time of war and suspicion, and only the Wagon that was Promised can lead us to peace and reconciliation. Even here, embittered foes like Iron & SK can become brothers-in-arms, LZM and Clov can set aside their barbs and unify for a great cause: saving the village.

 

We make peace with our enemies, not our friends. But we must make peace regardless. The wolves are coming.

[LedZepMan]

Has anyone ever told you that you make a good mediator Cory?

[dicetosser1]

No, it's that you argued I figured out he was the traitor.  One sentence:

 

Ben is dead because I chose for him to die.

 

 

I realize you don't know me.  That's fine.  Cory, BFG, and Sooh will assure you - if I'm mafia, there is 0.0% I figure out he's my missing teammate and help lynch him anyway.  If you had argued I lynched him thinking he was vanilla town, that would be plausible...except I have no reason to switch there - I can stay on SK and let it go rand, unless you're going to argue I'm teammates WITH SK and hopped to save him (again, they will point out why that's never the case.)

 

heres my question. Did you at any poin ITT say that you thought Ben was the Traitor?

 

 

SK vote [v]dicetosser1[/v] with me

 

I think prolonged discussion today is going to be -EV, which is annoying to say, but it's a function of the game mechanics XD

 

you wanna talk -EV? How about we start with you voting your D1 peek and trying to get a townie lynched?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No, it's that you argued I figured out he was the traitor. One sentence:

 

Ben is dead because I chose for him to die.

 

 

I realize you don't know me. That's fine. Cory, BFG, and Sooh will assure you - if I'm mafia, there is 0.0% I figure out he's my missing teammate and help lynch him anyway. If you had argued I lynched him thinking he was vanilla town, that would be plausible...except I have no reason to switch there - I can stay on SK and let it go rand, unless you're going to argue I'm teammates WITH SK and hopped to save him (again, they will point out why that's never the case.)

You didn't do squat but buss him at EoD.

Go back and look at the vote count. It was 5-5, with Sooh missing, SK off wagon, and Ben off wagon. I could have stayed on SK and kept it 5-5 and it would have randed; Ben coming in completely takes the possibility away and sinks it.

 

 

And to answer your other point about why I unvoted, I already mentioned it. All of my nulls were voting SK. All of my top townreads were voting Ben.

Bolded is a lie. You have said twice you don't understand why I am in three peoples top town reads. But I voted Ben,parked my vote there in fact.

 

 

Okay, you're right - that is a literally incorrect statement.  I was null on Dice, I was null on Leyrann, and - at the time of his vote - I was null on Iron.  Meanwhile, I was townreading BFG, Niniel, Nolder, and Cory.  You were the sole null on Ben, Sooh was my offwagon townread.

 

Nothing is as good or as bad as it initially seems.

 

 

 

[v] dicetosser [/v]

 

 

So if I say to you  vote xyz  will you just roll over and do it? or are you just a sheep?

 

 

Don't hate the dice votes

 

what even tho at this time no reasons were given? happy with blind lynches now are we?

 

 

 

dice/Ley might be the ~exact wolfteam

Why do you figure that?

 

It's highly likely that ley is scum. Dices vote on me as well just appears as an excuse to vote no turning of the knobs so to speak. also I don't remember anything he has said. I am willing to buy ley/dice as scum.

 

 

yeah its been mentioned but try asking around about what i do to scum claimers. Hell cory's using it as part of his argument.

 

I would like to lynch dice or Leyrann. Preferably dice, but I would lynch Leyrann if we wanted to work toward resolving LZM's peeks.

 

I don't think we should, but either beats a Clov lynch and it's not even close.

 

Right so you have a hard claimed cop view guilty but youd rather vote your peek based off your thoughts give me a break.

 

and you know I DO sometimes want to wait and see what people do so i can then pounce on it if they do the wrong thing. I DO think you know. Nolders explanation was reasonable.  but of course im dice  i shouldnt accept reasonable should i??   i should just attack. right??

[Sooh]

is there any possibility the village would allow me to strongarm a lynch today? :angel:

 

i am almost entirely sure it will end in a wolf flip, and will give us another day before we have to pour through the seer mechanics, which looks like its gonna be soon :P

I'm game. Peeks are ??? at this point anyway.

[Sooh]

[v]Dice[/v]

[dicetosser1]

 

is there any possibility the village would allow me to strongarm a lynch today? :angel:

 

i am almost entirely sure it will end in a wolf flip, and will give us another day before we have to pour through the seer mechanics, which looks like its gonna be soon :P

I'm game. Peeks are ??? at this point anyway.

 

 

awesome. i will remember in future that if i decide i just want to lynch someone I should tell you and others here to just follow me. I wont give any reasons but I will expect you to follow me. ok? good. 

[BFG]

Dice, what's your read on SK, Clov and Cory?

[dicetosser1]

i think sk is scum. i was thinking cory town but im having a hard time wrapping my head around the fact that he popped out a view then turned around to try and get it lynched. thats not normal town cory. Clov ive last couple times caught as scum but iirc it took me a bit to see it. I do want an answer from him about the ben statement. dont know on him yet

[BFG]

Why do you think SK's scum?

[dicetosser1]

besides the scum claim? and the fact that he has proven he gambits?

 

its the lack of clarity. he seems to be doing it on purpose. Why would town want to be THAT confusing?? a little bit to hide or make people think your the cop? ok i can buy that but that much? and he wasnt that obscure last game here. so thats different.