Sherlock Holmes Role Madness Mafia Town wins

[Turin Turambar]

Hyperbole much? 

 

Show me anything in my posting towards you that was personal. I asked for your case on Thane and your reads on everyone in the game.  Could you take a stance on everyone please? 

 

If you think that Thane is so obviously mafia then why pick Ithi to go against? The last gladiator that challenged someone that wasn't their previous prime mafia candidate turned out to be mafia. In your post you say "even if Ithi is town", so you don't seem to fully believe that she is mafia yourself. That being the case why in the world would you use your challenge now? 

 

 

If she were mafia and working so hard to defend Thane (which she doesn't really seem to be) it would be natural to assume that Thane had the better role. Why else would Ithi risk herself and her current OBVTOWN positioning to try to save him? 

 

Rabid dog level of defending? try again. or at least show evidence of it. 

 

Your actions were to push extraordinarily hard at an "easy lynch" once you saw it might slip away. The attempt at using the character claim to paint him as even worse than he has been is a major ping. The fact that you changed your story about the character at least twice made it worse.

 

I have placed my vote. It is staying where it is. 

[Ithillian Turambar]

It's approaching eleven pm anyways. Time for bed.

 

Night night.

 

Play nice.

[Hallia]

Your governor friend? This tone is what I mean, Ithi doesn't seem the same as she normally does as town.

 

[v] Ithi [/v]

[dicetosser1]

for me mynd did it to himself.

 

He tried saying what a certain character would be. vt mafia etc  but then he got his wires crossed and said he didnt say things he did say.

 

He also got info about the character wrong despite apparently having read the books. quoted to youtube links of the series when he should have known this was based on the books, which he has apparently read.

 

 

vote mynd

[dicetosser1]

As far as I know gladiator fights are between a challenger and their target so yea I guess its Mynd who did it.

 

Gladiators tend to be town... But why Ithi, Mynd?

 

Only gladiators ive seen have been mafia. I was scum with darthe when he challenged another of our teammates to a duel.

 

 

I see people running to get involved...

 

YAY!! More Scooby!!!

[Myndrunner]

I was not misrepresenting the character claim.  To me, Irene Adler would not be vanilla. I would actually have placed her as scum or a third party.  That is essentially all I was saying. 

 

Interesting how the original argument is that the character claim was not important yet suddenly, it is the very basis for Ithi and Turin's attack.

[dicetosser1]

@tina and Des

 

BFG got my reasoning

 

 

BFG you realise that by doing that if we lynch thane and he flips town you are probably next right??

If he flips Vanilla then probably yes. But I don't believe he will.

 

 

 

 

 

If he flips Vanilla then probably yes. But I don't believe he will.

...but then BFG agrees?  Can one of you explain why BFG will be the target if Thane flips town?  Why are you all acting like Thane is going to flip town?

 

I don't think Thane will flip Town.

Specifically I said I would probably be lynched if he flipped vanilla. Role madness generally only has 1 VT, so 2 people claiming, 1 is probably lying (can see Twilight game as example).

 

 

 

len and mynd see BFG post in 375. Its my thinking too. The fact that he gets it makes me feel better about him being town.  Not totally sold yet but better

[Lenlo]

I have to agree with Mynd on this, if we have to put Adler into any alignment id say third party. I dont think shes town as shes not on Sherlockes, or anyone's really, side. The argument that shes town and thus that makes Thane town is also incredibly stupid imo. Character claims shouldnt have this kind of effect on the perceptions of someones alignment. Role claims, maybe but character claims never.

[dicetosser1]

Mynd i didn't like what YOU said.

 

You chose to make this a gladiator and you have not convinced me to believe you.

 

Hallia seems to be voting ithi simply cause Ithi p'd her off. It doesn't seem to me that she is voting ithi because she believes you.

 

Len doesn't want to vote EITHER of you. But is probably going to have to.

[Tsukibana]

Mynd, this whole thing is dumb - all you had to do was admit you pulled the Irene Adler read from non-canon material... oh, WAIT - from the Opening Post:

(Anyone else see that qualifier word, MAY? Could've stopped this whole party in it's tracks...) ANY read on any character is fine - this is why whole-sale

gaming the mod based on characters is bad, mmkay.

 

 

This theme will focus on the literary Holmes canon as written by Arthur Conan Doyle. Holmes stories in other media, and/or written works by other authors, may come into the game but don't count on it.

 

 

 

Hell, I'm gonna say that whoever got the Holmes role is Third-Party, Survivor/Cop.

[Hallia]

Or roles don't matter because scum was given safe claims. Less focus on characters and more on game

[Hallia]

Mynd i didn't like what YOU said.

 

You chose to make this a gladiator and you have not convinced me to believe you.

 

Hallia seems to be voting ithi simply cause Ithi p'd her off. It doesn't seem to me that she is voting ithi because she believes you.

 

Len doesn't want to vote EITHER of you. But is probably going to have to.

I'm not p'd off as you say, her tone, to me, is noticeably different than normal, as I've stated multiple times

[Lenlo]

Or roles don't matter because scum was given safe claims. Less focus on characters and more on game

So uh... wheres this coming from?

[Turin Turambar]

Mynd on Irene Adler...

 

 

 

ok, skimming is bad: i missed BFG's claim there. Seeing it's a hard claim, i will give you my name too: i'm Irene Adler. And i'm still town.

 

Could it be Two townies in a game? Or is it IMPOSSIBLE to have 2 VT's in a role madness game? After all, it's the mod who gives out roles to his/her liking. I seriously get the feeling that everybody plays 'how it was and how it should be' instead of 'what are the real possibilities'.

 

I'm terribly sorry, but there is no FRIGGEN way that Irene Alder is vanilla town.  Oh quite the contrary.

 

second bolded is perfect example for first bolded....

 

 

Sure, it is possible that a game built around the Sherlock Holmes mythology would have Irene Adler as a vanilla town, but it is also possible that the sun will explode today.  It is very unlikely, but it might. 

 

Claiming to be Irene Adler in a Sherlock Mafia game is the equivalent of claiming to be Catwoman in a Batman mafia game.  There is too much history between her and Mr. Holmes for her to be vanilla town.  She is either scum or some kind of third party character.

 

She would be a terrible fake claim as well. 

 

So yeah, there is nothing wrong with playing on how it should be or supposed to be AND playing what is possible......but to use the good detectives own words,

 

When you eliminate the impossible, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truth.

 

...and now my follow-up to that would be, sort information into likely and unlikely using logic.  Go with the choice that seems most logical because it likely is the truth.

 

first take is that Adler is in NO WAY VT. NO WAY. He does clarify to say that she could be scum or some sort of third party. Then steps back and makes a comparison to suggest that it is possible, but so unlikely that it might as well be impossible. So since you have admitted that it is possible your argument must be moot. Actually it sounds like you don't even know what you want to say.

 

 

He says that there is too much history between them. It looks like she appeared in ONE story. How many original Holmes novels are there by Doyle?  

 

 

 

Never heard of this woman so I read the wiki now.

I disagree with Mynd, she could easily be a lot of roles, VT included.

Relying on char claims is a bad idea BTW.

 

I'll address the irony of the bold in a moment, Mr. Miller.

 

Again, it is possible she would be VT, but highly unlikely.  She is a character DEEP in the Sherlock Holmes mythology and a devious one.  Mrs. Hudson would be a likely VT character, but not Irene "Black Widow" Adler.  I can almost hear the character herself scoffing at the notion that she would be vanilla in any game. 

 

This is Irene Adler:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utwenXbh9hA  (SPOILER!)

 

This is also Irene Adler:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1hcFQzeq_Q  (NSFW)

 

Now then, we have moved you to the not likely scum list BECAUSE of your role claim.  It is all possible that you are a LLL, but unlikely.  The best course of action is to go with the move that gives us the most information.  You claim Miller in your first post.  We could lynch you to prove you are telling the truth, but that would be a waste if you indeed flipped as you said.  Anyone who has had a miller role should understand that there are only a handful of ways to play it, and coming clean on D1 is extremely pro-town.

 

As far as relying on character claims, sure anything goes and nothing is certain, but when the goal is to seek out what is likely over what is unlikely, it can be useful. A WOT game would likely make Rand al'Thor a powered town player, or at the very least, vanilla town.   Graendal, on the other hand, would not likely be a vanilla town at all, would she?  Even Lanfear would likely be something other than vanilla town. 

 

Csarmi casts doubt on utilizing character claims to either vet or condemn anyone. Further questioning the logic that Adler could not be VT. Mynd snipes at him calling it ironic he would think so due to Csarmi claiming Miller earlier. Then he  again pushes that she is a character DEEP in the mythology. The evidence to back it up is out of a current TV show. Question for anyone that knows. Is the moniker "Black Widow" actually used in the books or is that a creation of TV also? I am thinking that perhaps he is using the TV character more than the book character even though the MODS have stated that this is a game based on the books.

 

Mynd also seems to be making huge assumptions in his WoT comparisons. I would say that at best you would need to consider the games size, the setting, et cetera before making any assumptions about characters.

 

 

Where's the irony?

Why are you mixing up char claims with role claims?

Also my wiki said that character only appears in one work (bohemian stuff) and is mentioned in passing at a few places as Holmes would be admiring her. Why that would fix her char to a role, I dunno.

As for your WoT example... I wouldn't hesitate to make Lanfear vanilla town in my game.

 

Its the same reasoning. Many of us have ruled you out (for now) because of your miller claim.  I am ruling Thane likely scum more because Irene Adler is a likely scum character.

 

It is possible for Irene Adler to be vanilla town, but unlikely.  Sure, based on what happens with Lanfear, I can see her as VT, but Graendal was clearly not so much.  In Holmes mythology, Adler was one of his greatest adversaries.  What is the point of having a themed game if it isn't based on the mythology?

 

So, it is unlikely that Irene Adler is VT.

 

I'm a huge fan of Sherlock Holmes, but I had to look up my char as well. 

 

more discussion, First line is that Adler is a "likely scum character".Next line is it is possible for Adler to be VT. but he still maintains it is unlikely.

 

I would say that is would be reasonable to have Adler as VT based upon the character claims we have seen so far. The Gladiator is a I am guessing hard scrabble kid. Baskerville who was a fairly main character in one story is a VT. Adler who was a fairly main character in one story is VT. I dunno about the Miller guy. I haven't looked him up. So it would look more likely that the PRs are more indicated by what they do and the VT(s) are just characters in the story. 

 

Another question: based on that thought if Adler were to be a PR, what would she be? What dastardly thing has she done in the books? Evade the lackeys sent against her by a man looking to steal from her. I would say at the very worst she would be a survivor. But that isn't really important right now.

 

 

I read the wiki too - it don't say anything about her being a major adversary. She had an affair with some prince and he hired Holmes to get a compromising photo - but she outwitted him and left a photo of herself there.

Which was the only thing he asked for in payment for the job.

He admires her and she's apparently the only woman he had feelings for.

Maybe her role got sexed up for some tv show or film.

 

A long time ago, some guy named Sir Arthur Conan Doyle wrote a wiki about Holmes too, but in paper form.  In that text, her character was not only far from vanilla, but had an extensive history with Holmes.  It is unlikely that she would be vanilla town.

 

still unlikely. what is the extensive history that you refer to here? please provide something to back up your statements. Again, she appears in ONE story. 

 

 

Finding it very odd that Mynd is pushing so hard on this character claim as a reason to lynch. It looks like trying to make sure the lynch goes thru.

 

Mynd, the example you show is from the Sherlock TV show. Basel was pretty clear that he was taking his cues from the original books written by that guy Doyle.  

 

 

Thane has done enough in my opinion to get lynched himself but I think I still prefer X to wear the noose today. 

 

 

@Despo, you are technically correct that Role Madness does NOT have to have EXACTLY one VT but it has become the most likely setup. (Nice Highlander ref, I LOL'd)

 

Im not pushing hard.  I thought this was about character claims being a reason or not reason to vote someone.  I agree he has done enough to put him on the block, but my point is that his claim is unlikely.

 

Curious why you are trying to make more of my posts than are really there. 

 

Again saying it is unlikely but not going back to impossible which was the rhetoric that was used initially to try to push the lynch to completion.

 

 

I don't say anywhere that she's a bad woman though. Just a clever woman. She didn't even drop the arrogant prince bloke in it. All she did was not get done over by some guy and went on to live her life.

I see you still trying to spin it though.

Your posts are mostly fluff and repetition of other folk's points of view. The only thing I would make of your posts is that you trying to be clever and nudge and push towards Thane.

Who do you think are likely Town and who do you think are likely Mafia at the moment and why?

Why did you initially vote Thane and not X when you said the Thane case was weak and Turin and Tsuki had been better at finding mafia?

 

I didn't say Irene Adler was scum, I said she is not likely a vanilla townie.  I don't buy his claim, but I voted him long before that was an issue.

 

I said YOUR case was weak. 

 

What do you know about how Thane will flip that the rest of us don't?

 

But he did say that Adler was likely scum. So are you holding that it is a semantic argument? You voted him long before but you admitted that it was merely a pressure vote. And it was in part his claim that made you think he is mafia.

 

Finally he tries to accuse Ithi of a TMI slip. or at least nudge about it. This pings to me because mafia will frequently engage in transferrence. attributing their motives or thoughts to another player. 

 

 

 

I don't understand why this is now about me and you, Ithi.   I thought this was a debate on whether character claims are a good basis to case someone. 

 

I voted Thane long before he claimed.  I still think he's scum.  I still doubt his claim.  I still believe it is unlikely that Irene Adler would be a VT.  I don't get how this has become some kind of push.

 

To me, it seems like you are preparing for Thane to flip town like you already know that he will.  That bothers me a lot. 

I don't see how you treated this as in any way a debate about technique. you used each opportunity to state that you didn't believe the claim and therefore Thane must be mafia. 

 

And again with the TMI nudge. 

 

 

finally the wiki stuff Ithi posted about the character. To me it reads like she was the innocent victim of her ex boyfriend who has already tried to steal the picture, her luggage stolen and actually wayaid (read kidnapped) her in an attempt to get it. After impressing Holmes with her cleverness she escapes with her new husband. Holmes even realizes that she was the wronged party. So I don't really get how she would definitely not be town based on that.

Real stuff that Mynd is not just making up

Irene Adler is a fictional character in the Sherlock Holmes stories written by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle. She was first featured in the short story "A Scandal in Bohemia", published in July 1891. She is one of the most notable female characters in the Sherlock Holmes series, despite appearing in only one story, and is frequently used as a romantic interest for Holmes in derivative works, though in the story it is made clear that Holmes is only impressed by her resourcefulness and intelligence.

According to "A Scandal in Bohemia," Adler was born in New Jersey in the 1850s. She followed a career in opera as a contralto, performing at La Scala in Milan, Italy, and a term as prima donna in the Imperial Opera of Warsaw, Poland, indicating that she was an extraordinary singer (in reality, there was no Imperial Opera in Warsaw). It was there that she became the lover of Wilhelm Gottsreich Sigismond von Ormstein, Grand Duke of Cassel-Felstein and King of Bohemia, who was staying in Warsaw for a period. The King describes her as "a well-known adventuress" (a term widely used at the time in ambiguous association with "courtesan"[1][2]) and also says that she had "the face of the most beautiful of women and the mind of the most resolute of men". The King eventually returned to his court in Prague. Adler, then in her late twenties, retired from the opera stage and moved to London.

On 20 March 1888, the King makes an incognito visit to Holmes in London. He asks the famous detective to secure a photograph of Adler and him together. The 30-year-old King explains to Holmes that he intends to marry Clotilde Lothman von Saxe-Meiningen, second daughter of the King of Scandinavia; the marriage would be threatened if his prior relationship with Adler were to come to light. He also reveals he had hired burglars to attempt to retrieve it twice, had Adler herself waylaid, and her luggage stolen, to no avail.

Using his considerable skill for disguise, Holmes traces her movements, learning much of her private life and, notably, stands witness to her marriage to Godfrey Norton, an English lawyer. Holmes then disguises himself as an elderly cleric and sets up a faked incident to cause a diversion that is designed to gain him access to Adler's home and to trick her into revealing where the picture is hidden. Adler treats him, as the supposed victim of a crime outside her home, with spontaneous care and solicitude. At the moment she gives away the location of the photograph, she realises she has been tricked. She tests her theory that it is indeed Holmes, of whom she had been warned, by disguising herself as a young man and cheekily wishing him good night as he and Watson return to the Baker Street flat.

When Holmes returns the next morning with Watson and the King to demand the return of the photograph, he finds Adler gone, along with her new husband and the original photo, which has been replaced with a photograph of her alone as well as a letter to Holmes, explaining how she had outwitted him, but also that she is happy with her new husband, who has more honourable feeling than her former lover. She adds that she will not compromise the King and has kept the photo only to protect herself against any further action the King might take. In the face of this and the King's arrogant statement that it was a "pity that she was not on my level", Holmes realises then that Adler was the wronged party rather than the King and asks, when offered a reward by the King, only for the photograph that Adler had left.

At the time that Conan Doyle meant Watson to be writing the story it is unclear if Irene Adler is alive or dead, since she is referred to as 'the late Irene Adler', though this could merely be a comment on her change in name that came with her change in marital status.

Irene Adler is also mentioned in the following stories:
"A Case of Identity"
"The Adventure of the Blue Carbuncle"
"The Five Orange Pips" (probably; see below)
"His Last Bow"

In "The Five Orange Pips", Holmes mentions that he has been outwitted four times, thrice by a man and once by a woman. Since "The Five Orange Pips" is set in September 1887, before "A Scandal in Bohemia", which is set in March 1888, Holmes could not be referring to the specific appearance of Irene Adler during "A Scandal in Bohemia" if the chronology is correct. Doyle had made clear chronological mistakes in other Holmes stories, and no other woman to be held in the same regard by Holmes or to have outsmarted Holmes is ever mentioned. Also, in "A Case of Identity", Watson mentions that Adler is the only person he has ever known to have outmaneuvered Holmes.

Adler earns Holmes' unbounded admiration. When the King of Bohemia says, "Would she not have made an admirable queen? Is it not a pity she was not on my level?" Holmes replies scathingly that Adler is indeed on a much different level from the King (by which he means higher—an implication lost on the King).

The beginning of "A Scandal in Bohemia" describes the high regard in which Holmes held Adler:


To Sherlock Holmes she is always the woman. I have seldom heard him mention her under any other name. In his eyes she eclipses and predominates the whole of her sex. It was not that he felt any emotion akin to love for Irene Adler. All emotions, and that one particularly, were abhorrent to his cold, precise but admirably balanced mind. He was, I take it, the most perfect reasoning and observing machine that the world has seen, but as a lover he would have placed himself in a false position. He never spoke of the softer passions, save with a gibe and a sneer. They were admirable things for the observer — excellent for drawing the veil from men's motives and actions. But for the trained reasoner to admit such intrusions into his own delicate and finely adjusted temperament was to introduce a distracting factor which might throw a doubt upon all his mental results. Grit in a sensitive instrument, or a crack in one of his own high-power lenses, would not be more disturbing than a strong emotion in a nature such as his. And yet there was but one woman to him, and that woman was the late Irene Adler, of dubious and questionable memory.

This "memory" is kept alive by a photograph of Irene Adler, which had been deliberately left behind when she and her new husband took flight with the embarrassing photograph of her with the King. Holmes had then asked for and received this photo from the King, as payment for his work on the case.

 

What my problem with Mynd in this case is he should KNOW that Adler was in fact the wronged party and still has attempted to spin it in a manner that she is some nefarious "Black Widow". What would be the purpose of this? to push a stalling lynch on a town player that his team thought would be an easy lynch.

 

 

 

There is more but that falls into conspiracy theory and will be another post. 

[Turin Turambar]

Or roles don't matter because scum was given safe claims. Less focus on characters and more on game

So what is your take on Mynd's game play so far?

[Turin Turambar]

I was not misrepresenting the character claim.  To me, Irene Adler would not be vanilla. I would actually have placed her as scum or a third party.  That is essentially all I was saying. 

 

Interesting how the original argument is that the character claim was not important yet suddenly, it is the very basis for Ithi and Turin's attack.

No you stated that you had Thane as more likely mafia because Adler was a likely scum character. I think that the proof is she was more innocent than you are making out but that you still tried to portray her as scum to keep the lynch moving forward once Thane took a little breath and made a reasonable reads list (something you still haven't done) 

[Lenlo]

quick post of thoughts, in general and from memory:

 

1. Thrax: townlean for the moment. solid, well thought of, explanatory posting.

2. Len: no idea... chae's gut feeling is usually right, but i haven't seen anything of him recently to believe he might be scum.

3. Mynd: yeah, still keeping my vote there. Call it bussing, i think there's a scummer right there.

4. Dawn: null, not in the game

5. Tina: started to get more active, which is good.

6. Turin: from what i saw, got a townfeel for him.

7. Despo: mixed feeling about that one. Could be scum, could be town... certainly wants me gone..

8. Hally: not much to go after... would've expected more by now (and not only sheeping on the obv target)

9. Chae: are gut feelings enough for a lynch? i dunno, i doubt it. But gut feelings can be right. Town for you for the moment.

10. Ithi: strongest townread in here.

11. Thane: is even town, yup (even if he has a really odd way to show it)

12. Tsuki: townread for now.

13. Dice: LD impression in this game, though didn't like the interaction with BFG.

14. Charis/BFG: Comes in with a focus on the obvious target, being me. Get the feeling she's going for an easy lynch with me. Scummy tingle.

15. Pral:made a few posts, soft claimed town PR, then vanished. Doubt it has to do with DM weekend 

16. Salami: claimed miller fast: Follows Chae without further investigation.... have some problems buying his story

This list Turin? Cause this isnt so much a reads list as it is a recap with slight opinions thrown in.

1. Actual Read

2. Fencing sitting and subtle pushing.

3. Doesnt actually call him scum AND says "Call it bussing". Seriously? Thats pretty scummy.

4. Not a read.

5. Not a read.

6. Town "feel". No definitive stance.

7. Fence sitting and says 7 wants him gone.

8. No read. Says not much to go after. Does he want to go after her?

9. Town for the moment. Debates if gut feelings are enough for a lynch, doubts it but then backtracks saying they can be right after previously saying Chae is usually right with her gut. WTH is this?

10. Actual Read.

11. Read. On himself.

12. Actual Read, no reasons for it though.

13. LD impression? Lie Detector? What? No Read.

14. No Read, scummy tingle because they came in focusing on the "obvious target" him.

15. No Read.

16. No. Read.

 

Thats what you call a good list Turin?

[Turin Turambar]

@Lenlo, For Thane in these circumstances I would say it is reasonable. It was off the cuff and seemed to be his actual thoughts. It is still more than Mynd has given.

 

You have Mynd as town correct? What town reasoning would you give for him to use his only power to challenge Ithi? on D1? over something trivial in his mind? 

 

He hasn't given his motivation for this either even though he has been asked for it. 

 

Speaking of motivation. What motivation would Hallia have for claiming Governor when she did? also her initial claim was to derail the challenge but what she actual does is pardon the condemned making it a no lynch for the day in effect.

 

@ Hallia, Why did you claim the way you did and at that time? Also since you don't think character claims mean anything then kindly give us yours. 

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

Vote count:

 

Mynd (6): Ithi, Turin, Tsuki, Chae, Pral, dice

Ithi (2): Mynd, Hallia

 

 

Not Voting (8): everyone else

 

 

With 16 alive it takes 9 to lynch. A deadline is now in effect.

 

DL is set for Tues. June 17th at 9 PM EST.

[Myndrunner]

@Lenlo, For Thane in these circumstances I would say it is reasonable. It was off the cuff and seemed to be his actual thoughts. It is still more than Mynd has given.

 

You have Mynd as town correct? What town reasoning would you give for him to use his only power to challenge Ithi? on D1? over something trivial in his mind? 

 

He hasn't given his motivation for this either even though he has been asked for it. 

 

Speaking of motivation. What motivation would Hallia have for claiming Governor when she did? also her initial claim was to derail the challenge but what she actual does is pardon the condemned making it a no lynch for the day in effect.

 

@ Hallia, Why did you claim the way you did and at that time? Also since you don't think character claims mean anything then kindly give us yours. 

 

Actually, I have. 

 

I think you and Ithi went batshyte berzerker over something very trivial.  I assumed most of the roster would have seen the same crazy push that I did and vote Ithi out.  If you both are town, we don't need this kind of extreme tunnel vision with rabid, almost vindictive commentary. 

 

You say it isn't personal? Ok.  Then you are truly convinced that I am scum simply because I disagree how Irene Adler would be portrayed in this game.  I don't think there is a word to describe how embarrassed I feel for you if you truly believe that this is how you play the game.

 

If you both are truly town, then this game you and Ithi played today only helped the scum team.  You are both clearly working together.  I am assuming then that it is allowed to PM each other and discuss the game with each other then?  Fine.  But if you and Ithi are truly town, your narrow minded and vindictive assault is only helping the scum team.  Your basis for me being scum is that I disagreed with how Irene Adler would be portrayed?  Seriously?

 

Now Turin, how foolish will you feel if it turns out that Ithi is scum and has been playing you this whole time?  Would you say that such a scenario is impossible or have you even considered that she is railroading you?  I actually think that this might be the case.  I really doubt that a mafia team would be this blatant about working together.

 

And then the third alternative is that you and Ithi are both scum.   If that is the case, then I gladly fall on my sword because my body won't even be stiff before the two of you are in the noose. 

[鲍勃不是我的名字]

Vote Ithi

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

Vote count:

 

Mynd (6): Ithi, Turin, Tsuki, Chae, Pral, dice

Ithi (3): Mynd, Hallia, 鲍勃不是我的名字

 

 

Not Voting (8): everyone else

 

 

With 16 alive it takes 9 to lynch. A deadline is now in effect.

 

DL is set for Tues. June 17th at 9 PM EST.

[dicetosser1]

@ Hallia

 

I'm not 100%, but I feel good as far as Ithi, not sure on Mynd because well, he's vanished.

 

 

Here you feel good about Ithi

 

Your governor friend? This tone is what I mean, Ithi doesn't seem the same as she normally does as town.

[v] Ithi [/v]

 

Here 2 1/2 hrs later you vote her

[Turin Turambar]

This starts on page 24 which is the page that the challenge was issued by Mynd. There is too much to quote so I encourage everyone to read through this section carefully. I have made comments of my thought and towards the end I did not post everything. Spoilered because it is long. sorry in advance. 

 

 

 

She is likely scum, but she is definitely not vanilla.  How is this even remotely the basis for me being scum?

Mynd comes out again with his continuing argument that Adler is likely scum. Now he could just be wrong or taking his  info from a TV show, but he claims to be a big fan and has read all the books. My problem with his stance is that he is using what I believe to be known false information to further push a lynch on a player that I think all would have to categorize as low hanging fruit. 

 

Ithi comes back to challenge him on making his actual case on Thane since the character claim is supposed to not be a major component. To me it looks like Ithi is basically asking for a quick summary of what the actual case was. So far all I have really sen is that Thane was emo and quit. If there is something substantial it should be easy to remember it. She also questions him about his stance that it was all just a debate about claims and their value. Again to me it looks like he was attempting to utilize that debate to further his case on Thane.

 

Mynd asks Ithi to reread what he said and accuses her of rabidly defending Thane. I think the latter is a misrep.

 

Ithi responds by calling him out on the quoted post above as a misrep of the character in an attempt to push the Thene train to the station (Thane was at L-3 at the time)

 

Turin questions Mynd's take on the character based on the story outline that appears to show her as the wronged (dare I say innocent) party in her story.

 

Ithi makes a joke about Mynd's rabid defense line.

 

Mynd retorts that he read the books that Adler is not VT. He goes on to say that he explained his vote and says that he doesn't buy Thane's clam, again that Adler isn't VT, and that he doesn't like Thane's play(no examples given) or that he quit. He also accuses Ith, Turin and Csarmi of working together. Csarmi was involved only tangentially, not sure where that came from. THEN HE MAKES THE CHALLENGE.

 

I make a joke. Ithi laughs at Mynd for changing his story. Mynd comes back yet again with the idea that he is being called out for his stance that Adler is scum when in fact the reason I and I believe Ithi are suspicious of him is because he is using that misinformation as a means to push the Thane lynch. He is at best trying to frame a guilty man. Again inculding Csarmi in a group of 3 with Ithi and Turin.

 

Turin asks if Mynd really wants to thunderdome with Ithi? I see that as pure suicide and say so. I also ask him for a complete lists of reads and give him a deadline to post them so they will be not scripted to make sure they match what he has said previously. Ithi quips about Thane still voting himself. 

 

Ithi then basically summarizes her case against Mynd. (Something that Mynd seems incapable of doing in real time). I say a little bit. Somewhat echoing her thoughts.

 

The challenge is announced.

 

I post saying that Mynd has not met the time requirement for his reads. (sorry again MODS for posting then I was digging up the gollum gif)

 

Mynd at the same time posts his vote on Ithi. He attempts to show us as working together and misreps us as exaggerating his word. He also spins it as personal, anti-town and immature. ( two things here. 1. the name callng has been all on one side from Mynd. He has old meta that getting either of us spun up about the other can induce meltdown and might be trying to cause one here. 2. He NEVER says that either of us are MAFIA. I have been told this is stretching but he was up and down about how thane was mafia or scum ad naseum. I think it was easier to do when it was more planned out and not so quick going on.)

 

Lenlo pops up. He says that we should all ignore the character and base thoughts on the role claim. Reasonable. Then calls my post asking Mynd to give reads scummy. Saying that there is subtle pushing I guess about the thunderdome line. Which I maintain is pure suicide. He takes Mynd's side in the Adler debate saying he didn't misrep the character (I guess you can make up your own mind) Then pulled the post that the challenge had been made but apparently didn't read it cause he posted while he wasn't supposed too also. He took the opportunity to conclude that i initiated the challenge between the two of them (wrong, but he did admit his error) And again calls a post of mine scummy.

 

VOTES ARE RESET: POSTING ALLOWED AGAIN

 

Lenlo posts again at Csarmi saying that he jumped off Len and onto Mynd once Chae was safe. This makes no sense to me. Csarmi switched to Mynd before the challenge was initiated so Chae/Thane were not safe at the point he changed votes. (I actually missed this on intial read. Len, what did you mean here?)

 

Hallia pops up. Immediately following Len on the assumption that I initiated the challenge. Which makes me scum. She also states clearly that my motivation would have been that it would be town on town violence. (so here Hallia has Ithi as TOWN)

 

Ithi and then Turin point out that it was most likely Mynd himself that initiated the challenge.  I also stated that I found it odd that Len and Hallia both appeared minutes after the challenge was issued. Len actually posting in the dead zone requested by the mods. 

 

Len maintains that I initiated the challenge. Oddly Mynd is not about to say anything. Hallia chimes in right behind asking if I think Mynd did it? (I am thinking that they were gonna try to spin it that I initated the challenge and had the means to silence Mynd as well. That is pure conjecture on my part however). Hallia jokes with Len about shared thoughts. I refute having initated the challenge. Len then backs off the suspicion that I did but still wants to portray me as scummy. (Approach my person brother)

 

Ithi notes how Len and Hallia popped up right after the challenge was issued and Mynd disappeared to side with him. (even tho Hallia thinks it is town on town and Len still maintains that they are both town also. I think actions are not matching statements)

 

 Len comes on and states he was ninja'd by the challenge although it was IN HIS POST. spinning that he was already typing when challenge issued. I let him off on it then, not sure i am still buying it now.

 

Hallia is back asking if ithi thought what I said wasn't suspicious at all? and trying to imply that Mynd and I both said things equally indicative of starting the 1 v. 1. 

 

Ithi says that this will be a good thing as everyone will have to take a stance on D1. Good to hold people to later on. Len is peeved because he can't vote any of his top 3 mafia reads. (guess whose fault that is? Mynd)

 

Hallia gets a bit snippy about ithi not immediately answering her "important question". (ironic that she is calling Ithi snippy and having harsh tone) Ithi comes back saying that she is town  and that since i was agreeing with her I made perfect sense. She then gives Hallia a bit back for the grilling. Then says that it is interesting how Hallia is trying to discredit her (Mind you they both have Ithi as TOWN at this point and at least Len knows that Mynd is the one that initiated the challenge)

 

Len responds that they (is that Mynd and Ithi or Ithi and I?) have done enough of that themselves. to which Hallia +1's. (in conversation they still saying both are town)

 

Ithi asks if Len and Hallia thin she should be voted why don't they just do it? Hallia is again a bit sassy with her response and Len again says he still wishes he could vote Chae. (Sorry Len. Talk to Mynd about that)

 

Csarmi pops in to say that afahk Gladiator fights are between the gladiator and the one challenged. Also he asks Mynd for his reasoning and motivation to challenge Ithi at this point.

 

Hallia bounces back in with a statement that she can derail the gladiator match. And asks Len how sure he is that both are town. (so apparently somewhere in here Hallia is questioning her early firm belief that it was town on town)

 

Ithi responds to Hallia asking what the hurry was by making reference to Hallia's demand for quick response to her question. She also urges EVERYONE to give their reads on Ithi and Mynd. She also asks where Mynd went.

 

Len comes in to suggest that there are mafia gladiators also but stumbles over when he saw one.Hint: you shot him to end the game. (I think he would remember that) Hallia chimes in that the only other gladiator she saw was mafia as well. 

 

Csarmi asks for full claims from Ithi and Mynd.

 

Ithi chides Len about not being able to vote anyone other than Mynd or ithi so get over it. 

 

Len responds to Hallia to say that he still thinks Mynd and ithi are both town and that the mafia are Chae, Thane and X. (why only 3 slots Len? I would expect 4 in a game this size) She says she won't end it unless she is fairly confident both are town. 

 

Csarmi responds to Len saying that he ran his game with a mafia gladiator as it was unusual and he thought it would be interesting (It was too)

 

Ithi says she thinks it will be better to wait for claims so people can give thoughts before the claims enter the picture. ( I think this is reasonable as it is the weekend and only 5-6 people have posted since the challenge was issued)

 

Len responds to Ithi's chide by stating that Hallia can end the 1v1 so he wil talk to try to convince her to do so in order to get back to his preferred targets. Hallia again "me too"s Len. Csarmi injects that he thinks Chae is Town. Len comes back to say he doesn't think so.

 

Ithi asks Hallia what happens if she derails the gladiator match? (good question, but ultimately moot)

 

NOTBOB REPLACES DAWN

 

Ithi muses that due to timing and their words since arriving that Len and Hallia seem to be mafia with Mynd except that having a gladiator and a role to eliminate the gladiator effect would be too OP for a mafia team. ( I agree )

 

I reply to Len's post about the recent events. State that I think Ithi has played very town, that Mynd has misrepped the Adler character, it was odd that both Hallia and Len popped up right after the challenge was issued to side with Mynd IMO while trying to look like they were saying it was town on town. 

 

Csarmi notes that so many people showing up now is odd. 

 

Hallia claims Governor. A role that can pardon a lynched person, but can not derail a 1v1 showdown. Only keep the loser from dying.

 

Tsuki appears in thread. Asks a question that has been answered already for common knowledge. (I say this because although the MOD can setup the game any way they want it is common for a gladiator match to be between the gladiator and their chosen opponent) Ithi quotes the Wiki for him. Tsuki calls the challenge dumb and votes Mynd.

 

Ithi in here also acknowledged Hallia's governor claim noting that it doesn't stop the match it only allows her to pardon the loser. But it is good cause we still get to hear everyones take on ithi and Mynd. I make a joke about where Mynd went. Hallia says that we should ear from Mynd before progressing much more. (i found this a weird comment. Stalling)

 

CSarmi agrees that Mynd issued the challenge. 

Hallia says she knows Ithi is here and feels pretty good about her so just needs to hear from Mynd. (SAVE FOR LATER)

 

Ithi asks Hallia about her willingness to stop the match(something she realy can't do) based on Len's thought if both Ithi and Mynd are town. Ithi also questions Hallia on her statement that she feels good about Ithi when her posts seem not to suggest that. Hallia responds that she has a gut feeling on him and the two votes by Chae and Csarmi make her lean town on Len (QUESTION FOR HALLIA: do you now think that Csarmi is mafia and therefore fake claiming Miller?) Hallia also responds to the question of varying read by saying that she didn't like Ithi's reactions (to what if I may?) but she had a town read on Ithi previously and most of the game had a town read on Ithi so she wasn't worried about her. (why does it matter if Ithi is popular?)

 

Ithi asks if there is a role that can start a gladiator match and silence one of the combatants. hallia immediately adds her voice to second the question. (i think this is odd but also precisely what a Mynd/Hallia team would be hoping for. A townie to bring up the question. but it gets no traction)  Ithi says it was a joke. Hallia adds that she is starting to wonder about Mynd.

 

Chae comes in with a complete reads list. Has ithi s town and Mynd as mafia. VOTES MYND. (also has Len mafia and Halia neutral) Hallia immediately comes in to ask if Chae missed her being able to prove she is town. Chae responds that she knew Hallia claimed something but not that it proved anything.(this is actually correct. governor can be mafia) Hallia comes back with it being a "town role " that can be proven. (to me this is a blatant misrep trying to get herself cleared prematurely. BIG PING) Ithi notes that it would be funny (and advantageous) for a mafia team to have a gladiator and a governor asit would allow for a challenge to be made and the gladiator to be saved if they lost.  Chae returns to say that she is only neutral about Hallia's play.

 

I also say that a governor can be mafia. Hallia replies by saying that it is odd how we are trying to cast doubt on it and quotes the wiki about mafia governors being OP in normal circumstances. It also says that they are usually only about when there are other ways to kill mafia. She notes she hasn't seen a lot of killing yet. And adds that she would never claim it openly as mafia. (orly?)

 

Hallia again tries to push the angle that someone else other than Mynd initiated the challenge. (at this point she has stated that she is starting to worry about him)

 

Ithi replies that it is only D1 so not much chance to see killing yet. I comment on the fact that Role Madness is NOT normal circumstances and echo that it is only D1. Also that Hallia did two things that really PING to me. Try to claim premature vetted and say "I would never do that as mafia"

 

Tina appears. Asks Ithi about why she unvoted Thane. Ithi responds that it was due to his full VT claim and then switched to Mynd due to his using misinformation to push the Thane lynch. Tsuki asks about the BFG cc. Tina also follows up on that question, suggeting that Ithi is gaming the mod and does she think that both BFG and Thane are VT? Ithi answers that she unvoted based on the belief that Thane would not claim VT in a Role Madness game and asked Tsuki and Tina what they thought about BFG and Thane's claims.

 

NotBob appears and asks for cliffs. I joke to just vote Mynd, then reply that he should read and that since it is 1v1 between Ithi

and Mynd he should probably pay close attention to them.

 

Csarmi UNVOTES MYND. he states that he can;t fnid a motive for Mynd to challenge Ithi from either alignment. He then asks Mynd to provide his reasoning/motivation for initiating the challenge. And for Mynd to give his reads. (neither of these have happened to date)

 

Pralaya appears: He give his thoughts on the players and lists them in the new fangled colour scheme. He has Hallia as null. Hallia pops in to ask if he has been reading this morning. Pral responds that he has but is not putting as much weight to it as it is after the challenge started. Healso aks if we can vote NO LYNCH at this point. MOD answer is NO.

 

Not Bob comes in to say he is thru p 10 and would vote either Thane or Turin at that point but is null on Mynd and Ithi.

 

Len is back to reply to my response to him. I think this has been mostly worked thru. One thing I will say is that we still definitely disagree on Mynd misrep of the Adler character. He seems to think that it can be interpreted multiple ways. I do not. I think it is very clear that she was not a bad character. Only smart.

 

Tina gives more thoughts and seconds Csarmi's request to Mynd about reason/motivation for challenging Ithi.

 

NotBob says he has to go out so will have to delay finishing his read. He still wants to lynch Thane but if forced to chose between Ithi and Mynd he will vote Mynd.

 

Pralaya and Tsuki go back and forth about Tsuki not voting in the first 24 hours of day and Pral having reads that Tsuki didn't like. It appears to be sideshow and not productive. They are both voting Mynd so the rest is just talk.

 

Hallia pops back in to say she thinks that Csarmi's request for full claims is not bad. I disagree and give my opinion why. I also ask her if she still thinks both ithi and Mynd are town. She says she is more sure about Ithi that Mynd ATM. 

 

A VC is posted showing Mynd ahead 5-1. Hallia comes on to say to stop voting Mynd until he can be heard. Len comes back in and squashes stuff with Ithi and me.

 

MYND SHOWS UP: Admits to starting the match, full claims as street urchin kid 1x gladiator and goes on a rant about Ithi and Turin. Read it yourself and decide like he says.

 

Ithi comes back at his word choices and makes the comment that Mynd is never really this emo but he is a player so this must all be game play. Mynd comes back saying that Ithi's response were perhaps a bit personal. Ithi responds by asking for quotes of any truly personal stuff and basically says Mynd is making it up. also makes a comment about it being funny for Mynd to have hurt feelings. I add my two cents to the personal attacks issue. Further questioning Mynd that if he really was so convinced that Thane was mafia, why not go up against him? again read for yourself.

 

Ithi goes to sleep. Hallia then comes on to vote Ithi citing her tone as being abnormal. (even thoguh that last she said was that she felt good about Ithi and was questioning Mynd. Flip flop much?)

 

Dice comes on and votes Mynd. 

 

Mynd comes back again trying to paint this as all about his saying Adler would be scum and now saying he meant scum or third party. Len comes in to back Mynd as saying that Adler would be most likely third party in his book. (the argument was never about what slot to put the character in it was about using that as the means to push the lynch when it looked to be stalling because the case was built around Thane being emo)

 

Tsuki and Dice talk about some things. Hallia jumps in with "Or roles don't matter because scum was given safe claims. Less focus on characters and more on game". ( i just noticed that she said roles don't matter. i assume she meant character claims don't matter tho) Len actually calls her out on this. I ask her what she thinks of Mynd's play so far.

 

Len comes back to ask about thane's reads. He thinks they are bad and he should feel bad. I think they are reasonable from where Thane was at the time he gave them. Ialso ask about Mynd's motive for starting the match and Hallia's for claiming as she did.

 

Mynd still ranting about how awful we are and how our play is anti-town. response to that in a bit.

 

NotBob votes Ithi with no reason given although on his last check in he was leaning toward voting Mynd.

 

Current VC Mynd 6- Ithi 3

 

 

Conspiracy theory coming up put on your "thinking hats"

 

 

My conclusion of looking at this since the challenge was issued is that Mynd being a very clever mafia player and seeing the roles that the mafia team was given hatched a nice juicy plot. I know that he is willing to do pretty much whatever in game if it will result in a win for his team. Anyway this is a bit of a conspiracy theory but I think that there is at least some basis for it in peoples actions versus their statements.

 

 

 

Mynd convinces Csarmi to claim Miller right out of the gate since it is widely believed that there is NO WAY he would do such a thing. The plan is to utilize their role powers/ and make claims to try to get themselves vetted as town early and coast to victory. By the time the town figures out that they are really mafia it will be too late. So Csarmi claims miller, Nearly everyone buys it. They plan to have Mynd claim gladiator which historically has been a town role. He chooses Ithi in what can only be described as a suicide move. Why oh why do that? because Hallia is a governor and can save him if he should lose. they try like the dickens to get themselves vetted as town thru their actions. Hallia even coming off as all snippy when anyone should question that she is of course town. This is an attempt to abuse her meta of being more brash/confident as town. Lenlo doesn't have a role but he seems to be following along as well. being the voice of reason. Keeping neutral. Big play big reward but big risk. It looks like it is falling apart so they a bit upset about that of course. I think that they were hoping to wait until D2 to try this after Thane flipped town but when his train stalled they decided to go with it today. 

 

of course there is room for adjustment here but I am pretty certain that at least Mynd and Hallia are mafia together. Hallia was all leaning towards Ithi being town but she votes Ithi after Mynd makes one crazy post? She has to vote Ithi or else there is no reason for her to be able to save Mynd. Cause why would she save Mynd if she thought he was mafia? That explains her vote. Mynd obviously isn't going to vote himself. Lenlo has still not decided. There is no out, just pick one and give a reason.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Hallia]

I'm warring with myself.  My gut says she's scum.  I try to think logically and I feel like she's pretty town, but her tone keeps nagging at me.