Padan Fain (Full Spoilers)

[Suttree]

 

 

It's strongly implied by Rand's POV that his third question was "Can the Dark One be killed?" His reflections show that he should have asked "Should the Dark One be killed?" It's probably the fact that he asked a question pertaining to the Shadow that he emerged from the archway in Tear wielding a sword.

 

If implications aren't enough, Brandon confirmed that this was his question here:

 

http://brandonsanderson.com/article/121/Tweets-January-13-23-2013

kaspe_r11 Wed Jan 23

@BrandSanderson #torchat Did Rand's third question to the Aelfin involve whether/how the DO could be killed?

 

BrandSanderson Wed Jan 23

@kaspe_r11 I think Maria and Harriet are planning to put these in the encyclopedia, but you are right on the third question. #torchat

Interesting, thanks for that Agitel.

 

Thoughts on someone being able to kill the Creator as well?

[Agitel]

 

 

 

It's strongly implied by Rand's POV that his third question was "Can the Dark One be killed?" His reflections show that he should have asked "Should the Dark One be killed?" It's probably the fact that he asked a question pertaining to the Shadow that he emerged from the archway in Tear wielding a sword.

 

If implications aren't enough, Brandon confirmed that this was his question here:

 

http://brandonsanderson.com/article/121/Tweets-January-13-23-2013

 

kaspe_r11 Wed Jan 23

@BrandSanderson #torchat Did Rand's third question to the Aelfin involve whether/how the DO could be killed?

 

BrandSanderson Wed Jan 23

@kaspe_r11 I think Maria and Harriet are planning to put these in the encyclopedia, but you are right on the third question. #torchat

Interesting, thanks for that Agitel.

 

Thoughts on someone being able to kill the Creator as well?

 

If someone managed to get a hold on the Creator as Rand did the Dark One, I'd say yes, it's possible. My understanding is that they're equal beings. That would probably involve finding the Creator, though, and he's apparently not sitting just outside the Pattern waiting for anyone to come get him. Then again, we can't be sure what physical limitations apply to the realm outside the Pattern.

 

It may be a stretch, but if we see the Creator and the Dark One as forces that have manifested intelligence and limited by their nature (good versus evil), I don't think the Creator would be able to attack anyone in self-defense. I'm not saying he couldn't do anything, but I suspect he'd be unable to kill someone trying to kill him, just because he's probably the embodiment of "good". It's because of the limits to his nature that I think he'd have been unable to create a balanced world by himself. He needed to incorporate the Dark One to do it; otherwise creation would have been like Rand's utopian/dystopian mirror world. And if he'd done that, then he would have done it without killing the Dark One, essentially meaning that the people of the Pattern would have been unable to defend themselves from the Dark One. They'd have been like the Tinkers. It wouldn't be in their nature to do violence, even to defend themselves, and they'd have been overrun by the Dark One. Sometimes you need to do evil things (kill and hurt) in order to achieve a greater good. That's one of the major struggles Perrin had. Even with the Dark One killed, there are other forces that threaten everyone, like Shaisam. Without the ability to do evil things they'd have been unable to fight back (if they could even find a way). Perhaps that was part of why Shaisam/Mashadar/Mordeth/Fain was included; it's a further justification for the need to have the evil of the Dark One as part of creation.

 

But that is heavy speculation. If the Creator and the Dark One are two equal but opposing beings, and if it's possible to kill the Dark One, then I think it is only a small logical step to assume that the Creator could also be killed.

[Mats Spare Hat]

Aside:

That'll be pretty sweet if all characters' Finn questions & answers, on-screen & off, are included in the encyclopaedia.

Heerrree's hoping.

[Suttree]

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's strongly implied by Rand's POV that his third question was "Can the Dark One be killed?" His reflections show that he should have asked "Should the Dark One be killed?" It's probably the fact that he asked a question pertaining to the Shadow that he emerged from the archway in Tear wielding a sword.

 

If implications aren't enough, Brandon confirmed that this was his question here:

 

http://brandonsanderson.com/article/121/Tweets-January-13-23-2013

 

kaspe_r11 Wed Jan 23

@BrandSanderson #torchat Did Rand's third question to the Aelfin involve whether/how the DO could be killed?

 

 

BrandSanderson Wed Jan 23

@kaspe_r11 I think Maria and Harriet are planning to put these in the encyclopedia, but you are right on the third question. #torchat

Interesting, thanks for that Agitel.

 

Thoughts on someone being able to kill the Creator as well?

 

If someone managed to get a hold on the Creator as Rand did the Dark One, I'd say yes, it's possible. My understanding is that they're equal beings. That would probably involve finding the Creator, though, and he's apparently not sitting just outside the Pattern waiting for anyone to come get him. Then again, we can't be sure what physical limitations apply to the realm outside the Pattern.

 

It may be a stretch, but if we see the Creator and the Dark One as forces that have manifested intelligence and limited by their nature (good versus evil), I don't think the Creator would be able to attack anyone in self-defense. I'm not saying he couldn't do anything, but I suspect he'd be unable to kill someone trying to kill him, just because he's probably the embodiment of "good". It's because of the limits to his nature that I think he'd have been unable to create a balanced world by himself. He needed to incorporate the Dark One to do it; otherwise creation would have been like Rand's utopian/dystopian mirror world. And if he'd done that, then he would have done it without killing the Dark One, essentially meaning that the people of the Pattern would have been unable to defend themselves from the Dark One. They'd have been like the Tinkers. It wouldn't be in their nature to do violence, even to defend themselves, and they'd have been overrun by the Dark One. Sometimes you need to do evil things (kill and hurt) in order to achieve a greater good. That's one of the major struggles Perrin had. Even with the Dark One killed, there are other forces that threaten everyone, like Shaisam. Without the ability to do evil things they'd have been unable to fight back (if they could even find a way). Perhaps that was part of why Shaisam/Mashadar/Mordeth/Fain was included; it's a further justification for the need to have the evil of the Dark One as part of creation.

 

But that is heavy speculation. If the Creator and the Dark One are two equal but opposing beings, and if it's possible to kill the Dark One, then I think it is only a small logical step to assume that the Creator could also be killed.

 

That seperation I was talking about earlier and the "taking no part" is why I thought it wouldn't be possible. The Creator would in essence never be exposed in such a way.

 

More so however we are needing to go deep into author quotes to even discuss this one.

[Simplman28]

I think there is a lot of conversation here off topic. Look, there are powers that RJ has given to this world that we do not fully understand (i.e. the finns, shaisam, even details about the AoL). These books tell an epic tale about the balance of good and evil, but they do not divulge every mystery about this world. Also, time and time again there is false information given because the narrations are from characters within the story. They don't always know everything or get everything right themselves. So, if you want to believe the DO is impossible to kill, then go ahead. Personally, I believe that both light and dark are complete necessary to the pattern. Without the creator and the dark one the pattern unravels. Maybe thats what Fain's role is. To completely undo existence itself.

[Leopoled Boothe]

I was expecting more out of Fain in AMOL but now that its said and done I can see his overall purpose in the the story.  He basically had two major roles to play.  His first role was to allow for the cleansing of Saidin.  It was due to his attack on Rand in "A Crown of Swords" that Rand recognized that the Evil of the Shadow and the Evil of Mordeth opposed one another thus helping him to figure out that he could use Shadar Logath to syphon the taint off of Saidin.  So why not just kill him off after ACoS?  Well he had another role to play too.  RJ kind of introduced two wild cards into the series both of which would pose a serious threat to Rand during his battle with The DO.  The events of the series made it so that Perrin and Mat were each uniquely suited to deal with one of them.  Perrin was a wolfbrother and therefore was able to learn the Wolf Dream and thereby deal with Slayer.  Mat had be previously infected by the evil of Mordeth and therefore was immune to its effects and so was able to deal with Fain.  I like this storyline overall in the it explained the ultimate purpose of the other two ta'varen but still would have liked to have seen Fain actually cause some actual chaos during the last battle.  Would have been cool to see him take out hoards of both Shadwspawn and Forces of the Light with tendrils of Mashadar.  I also would have liked to have seen Mat pull off more of a last minute rescue, I mean Fain didn't even get close to the bore.  It also would have been nice to see some Trolloc on Zombie Trolloc battles.

[Entreri]

The Creator can be killed just like Shai'tan.   

 

What would it require? Saidin and Saidar by themselves may not be sufficient...Look what happened when saidin was used against Shai'tan.

 

Saidin+Saidar+TP of Shai'tan or Creator = Death of either entity.  At the end, Rand was wielding more Power than he was at the Cleansing or even Dragonmount and it burned him out.  Also the fact that it appears he was also drawing "all" of the TP via Moridin. 

[Elan Tedronai]

The Creator can be killed just like Shai'tan.   

 

What would it require? Saidin and Saidar by themselves may not be sufficient...Look what happened when saidin was used against Shai'tan.

 

Saidin+Saidar+TP of Shai'tan or Creator = Death of either entity.  At the end, Rand was wielding more Power than he was at the Cleansing or even Dragonmount and it burned him out.  Also the fact that it appears he was also drawing "all" of the TP via Moridin. 

 

 

You are confused.

 

saidin was not used against shaitan. saidin was used to close the bore on the dark one's prison. In the act of shutting of the boe, the dark one response was to taint saidin once it came into contact with him.

 

saidin and saidar used together during aol would mean both sides get tainted.

 

callandor is not more powerful than coedan kal. The male kal by itself dawrfs all the power that can be handled by callandor. Let alone the female version.

 

The power it takes to destoy shaitan would result in the destruction of the world. Basically impossible.

 

 

 

The fact of the matter is rand could not face down taim in a circle of 13 equipped with an agreal and yet he can kill a God?

[Barid Bel Medar]

While it certainly seems like Rand thinks he is able to kill Shai'tan - it is only that. Rand thinks he can. 

 

Now it is strongly implied that Rand is correct - I don't dispute that. However, it is still only that. Rand believes he could have done it. 

 

If he had tried, things might have been a lot different. One thing to think that you can kill a God when you have the advantage - quite another to actually carry it out. 

 

Again, the book implies that Rand WOULD have been able to - however, we don't know for certain. 

[wRAR]

If Rand asked Finns about killing the DO, it seems they didn't answer "but you can't!".

[Elan Tedronai]

If Rand asked Finns about killing the DO, it seems they didn't answer "but you can't!".

 

 

i prefer RJ's answers than what some snakes may or may have not said

[Knivy]

He never said you couldnt kill the DO.  Balefire != Killing.  Balefire Kills, but isnt the only way to.

[Elan Tedronai]

he said the amount of power it would require to balefire him would cause the world's destruction. Balefire is the most lethal weave out there. You telling me rand will use lighting bolts and fire on shaitan to kill him? The most important point RJ wast trying to emphasis is amount of one power required. Not balefire. But the amount you would need.

[Suttree]

Actually, I don't know if that follows Élan. Balefire destroys the pattern. That sets it apart from regular op use.

[Duskfire]

To me, not being able to kill the DO invalidates part of the point of the series. Rand had a choice at the end, and he chose to seal Shai`tan away. Which it really all it comes down to, choice. I have no doubt whatsoever that Rand could have killed the DO there and then if he wanted. Being a God doesn't make you invulnerable. Anyhow, thats just my interpretation.

 

 

he said the amount of power it would require to balefire him would cause
the world's destruction. Balefire is the most lethal weave out there.
You telling me rand will use lighting bolts and fire on shaitan to kill
him? The most important point RJ wast trying to emphasis is amount of
one power required. Not balefire. But the amount you would need.

 

RJ was asked specifically about balefire, therefore he answered in balefire terms, which is known for its destructive qualities to the Wheel. Everyone is assuming the DO is immune to everything, when there is nothing that says that.

[mbuehner]

 

To me, not being able to kill the DO invalidates part of the point of the series. Rand had a choice at the end, and he chose to seal Shai`tan away. Which it really all it comes down to, choice. I have no doubt whatsoever that Rand could have killed the DO there and then if he wanted. Being a God doesn't make you invulnerable. Anyhow, thats just my interpretation.

 

 

 

RJ was asked specifically about balefire, therefore he answered in balefire terms, which is known for its destructive qualities to the Wheel. Everyone is assuming the DO is immune to everything, when there is nothing that says that.

 

 

Excellent point. To put things in terms of Independence Day (which is ultimately how i like to frame all my metaphors), it would take enough nukes to destroy the earth to kill the alien motherships... but Jeff Goldblum with an Powerbook can take down the whole fleet.

[Spainard]

Seeing that the last few comments haven't had anything to do with Padan Fain shows how little his arc contributed to the overall story in the end. So much potential used so little

[Mats Spare Hat]

 

 

To me, not being able to kill the DO invalidates part of the point of the series. Rand had a choice at the end, and he chose to seal Shai`tan away. Which it really all it comes down to, choice. I have no doubt whatsoever that Rand could have killed the DO there and then if he wanted. Being a God doesn't make you invulnerable. Anyhow, thats just my interpretation.

 

 

 

RJ was asked specifically about balefire, therefore he answered in balefire terms, which is known for its destructive qualities to the Wheel. Everyone is assuming the DO is immune to everything, when there is nothing that says that.

 

 

Excellent point. To put things in terms of Independence Day (which is ultimately how i like to frame all my metaphors), it would take enough nukes to destroy the earth to kill the alien motherships... but Jeff Goldblum with an Powerbook can take down the whole fleet.

 

 

 

 

 

Jeff Goldblum, a Powerbook, and Will Smith THANK YOU VERY MUCH  *emphatic nodding

[Simplman28]

I was expecting more out of Fain in AMOL but now that its said and done I can see his overall purpose in the the story.  He basically had two major roles to play.  His first role was to allow for the cleansing of Saidin.  It was due to his attack on Rand in "A Crown of Swords" that Rand recognized that the Evil of the Shadow and the Evil of Mordeth opposed one another thus helping him to figure out that he could use Shadar Logath to syphon the taint off of Saidin.  So why not just kill him off after ACoS?  Well he had another role to play too.  RJ kind of introduced two wild cards into the series both of which would pose a serious threat to Rand during his battle with The DO.  The events of the series made it so that Perrin and Mat were each uniquely suited to deal with one of them.  Perrin was a wolfbrother and therefore was able to learn the Wolf Dream and thereby deal with Slayer.  Mat had be previously infected by the evil of Mordeth and therefore was immune to its effects and so was able to deal with Fain.  I like this storyline overall in the it explained the ultimate purpose of the other two ta'varen but still would have liked to have seen Fain actually cause some actual chaos during the last battle.  Would have been cool to see him take out hoards of both Shadwspawn and Forces of the Light with tendrils of Mashadar.  I also would have liked to have seen Mat pull off more of a last minute rescue, I mean Fain didn't even get close to the bore.  It also would have been nice to see some Trolloc on Zombie Trolloc battles.

Really great insights Leo! Rand balances DO; Mat balances mordeth; and perrin balances slayer. With this understood, however, I wonder if Fain wouldn't have been more interesting as an unknown element in the final battle. Things got a little onesided for the good team after Demandred was killed. Maybe if Shaisam's fog appeared there on the battleground it would have presented a little more challenge for Mat and the seanchan reserves.

[clu7ch]

mat and perrin don't balance mordeth/slayer. they both killed them, thus balance goes out the window. 

 

It's the jedi prophecy all over again! Anakin did in fact bring balance to the force, by lobbing the number of jedi to an equal point of the number of sith. 

Of course, the jedi assumed bringing balance would just mean he'd kill the sith. Balance is balance, one can't exist without the other. 

[Dagon Thyne]

I always enjoyed Fain as a villain.  When he was last seen heading into the Blight with Mashadar tendrils and obviously quite bad-@$$ powerful, it was pretty disappointing to see Mat put him down so easily.  To have him ending up not having much impact at the Last Battle made him seen like a major red herring in the end.  I really enjoyed reading theories on these forums about how Rand might push Taim into the Bore and use him a la how he cleansed Saidin.  I think that would have been a pretty fitting outcome for Fain.  I mean, he WAS introduced asap in the first book and had a major recurring role through much of the first half of the series at least.  He was a lot of evil rolled into one and I had hoped for more from him in the end.  I don't have any interest in bashing BS, as this could have been a RJ decision and, in the end, I'm still happy with the end of the series and, obviously, the series as a whole.  

I had always thought it would turn out that the Pattern was preparing Fain to be the host body for the Dark One and that Rand and Fain would be the final battle. 

[sVieira151]

 

The Creator can be killed just like Shai'tan.   

 

What would it require? Saidin and Saidar by themselves may not be sufficient...Look what happened when saidin was used against Shai'tan.

 

Saidin+Saidar+TP of Shai'tan or Creator = Death of either entity.  At the end, Rand was wielding more Power than he was at the Cleansing or even Dragonmount and it burned him out.  Also the fact that it appears he was also drawing "all" of the TP via Moridin. 

 

 

You are confused.

 

saidin was not used against shaitan. saidin was used to close the bore on the dark one's prison. In the act of shutting of the boe, the dark one response was to taint saidin once it came into contact with him.

 

saidin and saidar used together during aol would mean both sides get tainted.

 

callandor is not more powerful than coedan kal. The male kal by itself dawrfs all the power that can be handled by callandor. Let alone the female version.

 

The power it takes to destoy shaitan would result in the destruction of the world. Basically impossible.

 

 

 

The fact of the matter is rand could not face down taim in a circle of 13 equipped with an agreal and yet he can kill a God?

 

I think you have got to remember Rand was outside the pattern when he felt that he could kill the DO. Which was different to both when the Prison was sealed in the AoL and when Rand fixed the Prison using Callandor. We don't entirely know what the repurcussions would have been for Rand to destroy the DO when he was outside of the patter, fighting him.

[amolcomments]

Tangent - ringing my personal 'fain as loki' theory again: in ragnarok, loki is killed by heimdallr (otherwise known as the hornsounder)

[Guest Brandon.]

The problem in this book is he had a fragile body..
Why? He was nailing fades to walls. He was wanting to rival the Dark One.

 

Paden Fain was one of only 2 disapointments.

I also think Faile shoulda died.

[Guest Brandon.]

My thoughts on Fain... I think he was the Pattern's failsafe in case Rand did not make the right choices. Imagine what might have happened had he not had his epiphany at Dragonmount and re-embraced his humanity. I think that when the first borderland noble would have struck him, he would have lashed out and destroyed them all and may indeed have lost himself to a madness that had noting to do with his prior exposure to the Taint. SOMEONE would be needed to deal with both an insane Dragon Reborn AND the Dark One, and that would have been fain. Had he killed Shaitan, the Shadow would have been destroyed, the force that is Shaisam would have become the new Dark One, thus resulting in the cycle beginning again. Fain was a pawn of the pattern from the very beginning, an ensurance policy spun into existance to make sure that if Rand did not make it to the Last Battle, the same result would be achieved, though without choice being part of it.

 

When Rand had his epiphany, the pattern no longer needed Fain, so while he might have been considered a Dark Ta'veren, whatever real influence he might have had on the pattern ceased.

 

Incidentally, I actually like that his end was so insignificant in the grand scheme. Fain always seemed to think way more highly of himself than apropriate. To his mind, he was the greatest thing since sliced bread, but with Rand conforming to the need of the pattern while at the same time influencing it, Fain wasn't even on equal terms with a stale crumb in rat poop. He existed to be used by every power but himself. The Dark One bent him to his will... Mordeth consumed him. and a one-eyed Ta'veren was the master of his fate.

 

I could be interpreting my impressions incorrectly. I'n sure someone will point out any flaws in my reasoning...

 

I really like your well spoken theory, but it doesn't change the fact that Fain was nailing Halfmen to the wall. He was physically powerful and terrifying.

Matt man handled him. I would atleast prefered, a duel with his ashendari.