Mat's Arc (Full Spoilers)

[flinn]

Oddly enough we know Sanderson approached Bernard Cromwell for help with the battle scenes but that didn't seem to help.

I feel like Sanderson played on the confusion and fog of war a lot to avoid getting really specific. I think it was the best way for him to do it. Jordan, and Cromwell for that matter, would have written it differently, I am sure. We all would have finished the chapter mesmerized with Mat's skills. Basically we are given, Mat went to war and did his Mat things to save the day, throw in this and that to firm it up. It worked well enough because we all understand what Mat is and that what he is doing is saving the world by winning the Last Battle. This also is why I say if RJ had lived to finish the series we would see more books before it was finished. There is way too many things RJ wouldn't have been able to leave without fully fleshing it out.

[pmtang]

So when did Mat die according to prophecy and thus releasing him from the horn?  Hawkwing said it's understandable that he wouldn't remember.  Must have been in another lifetime? 

[Barid Bel Medar]

That's enough Finnssss and Sutt, the personal conversation can go to PM, it strayed off topic a long time ago. 

 

To clarify, yes, comments on the author are inevitable when posting about any arc, Mat's included. It would be the same for those people who post "wow that was awesome, best written arc in the book." That is perfectly acceptable and anyone has a right to their opinion. Similarly, it also means that posters can express their dislike and also point out things that are mistakes. 

 

This is now addressed to everyone reading, not you guys personally, although certainly it includes you guys. 

 

There is a limit to this, but as long as it is directly related to the topic at hand and not overtly abusive of the CoC, it is allowed. With those rules in mind, I would suggest leaving it to the Mods to decide where a certain post belongs. If you have a problem with something - and you may even be correct, the amount of posts coming through with the release, we can miss things - PM one of the mods and it will be addressed. Getting into an argument with people about it only detracts from the quality of the forum to the point where instead of addressing the problem, it becomes the problem. 

 

With that said, the problem comes when people start getting annoyed and argue, like it has done here. You can't force people to conform to your idea of what you think should be acceptable. People have a right to their opinion, and if it doesn't breach the CoC, they have every right to express it. It seems to me a matter of tolerance. If there is an opinion that you disagree with, simply state that you don't agree, or don't reply at all. If you open the gates to debate, expect that the other poster will continue the debate to prove their point. If you want to avoid further conversation, again, simply state that you don't agree, and that you will have to agree to disagree. 

 

I'm afraid there is nothing Mods or anyone can do about people getting annoyed at other people's opinion. That is a problem for the poster themselves. After all, it is simply another posters opinion. There is no need to get offended nor angry, even if you disagree. 

 

That said, bludgeoning people with an opinion is not advised. If it does not breach the CoC or stated rules, there's nothing that the Mods can do. We are not willing, nor will we, censor any opinion because it annoys people. That is a price that is paid when visiting a forum where you converse with others who have their own opinions. However, in the interest of keeping things as civil and smooth as possible, I would suggest avoiding being drawn into conflicts. Having a reasonable debate is one thing, but after presenting all the evidence, repeating the same is fruitless. If there is still no agreement after that, then there likely will not be one. So I would suggest to simply agree to disagree - even if it seems that the other poster is missing the point, or being dense. It may be that they simply see things differently, and not something to get into an arguement about. After all, it is simply another's opinion. 

 

 

Having that said, back to the matter at hand: Mat. 

 

pmtang: Mat's death occurred in Caemlyn in FoH, when Rhavin balefired him, Asmodean and Aviendha and Rand brought them back via balefire. This is why the heroes say Mat owes his life to Lews Therin. 

[Jak o' the Shadows]

Mat should have out-General-ed Demandred before he died. 

 

His plans ultimately came to nothing when Demandred died, and tactics went out the window. Many sacrifices were left seeming unnecessary. 

 

However, he did save everyone by keeping toe-to-toe with Demandred tactically. Demandred would have slaughtered them if not for Mat. 

 

Still, Mat's plans -specially sending the Seanchan away while everyone else died- were useless when Lan killed Demandred. Mat couldn't have predicted it, and he did the right thing, however, seeing it all go to waste in the end left a bitter taste in my mouth. 

 

Well said. I agree wholeheartedly

[Agitel]

 

Mat should have out-General-ed Demandred before he died. 

 

His plans ultimately came to nothing when Demandred died, and tactics went out the window. Many sacrifices were left seeming unnecessary. 

 

However, he did save everyone by keeping toe-to-toe with Demandred tactically. Demandred would have slaughtered them if not for Mat. 

 

Still, Mat's plans -specially sending the Seanchan away while everyone else died- were useless when Lan killed Demandred. Mat couldn't have predicted it, and he did the right thing, however, seeing it all go to waste in the end left a bitter taste in my mouth. 

Well said. I agree wholeheartedly

 

It's important to keep a force in reserve. Once the Seanchan left, the Shadow felt it could fully commit its forces. It also meant they weren't prepared at all for any type of flanking maneuver that a reserve force could pull off.

 

I suppose it also gave Moghedian, Tuon, and Min something to do and a choice to make.

[pmtang]

But the Sharan's were rallying around Moghedean so they did still need the Seanchan.

[Sabio]

So when did Mat die according to prophecy and thus releasing him from the horn?  Hawkwing said it's understandable that he wouldn't remember.  Must have been in another lifetime? 

When Rhavin killed him and Rand brought him back from the dead by using balefire on Rhavin.

[Jak o' the Shadows]

I swear there is a quote from RJ stating that Mat was still tied to the horn because the bale fire made it so he 'never died'

[James Michaels]

My main disappointment is that nobody clicked an adam necklace on Tuon - even briefly to show her what it was like to be collared.  I was hoping this would happen to drive home the point so maybe she would begin to change policy on use of damane.

 

 

Mat of course was awesome and him killing Padan Fain was hilarious - I had no idea.

 

Lastly - in the last few books - Mats jokes and swearing had been lacking tremendously.  (In books like these - it's best to leave swearing - not as quotes but something like this, "Mat bit off some curses and walked away."  Where the reader imagines the swears for himself - anytime you add in stupid swears like Elayne and Mat did in the last few books - they land with a thud. Also, the last few books (imo) did a poor job of being in Mats brain and giving us dialoge that felt like the Mat that Jordan wrote.  Some of it was a stretch like when one of the Aes Sedai came in his tent either last book or before and asked to speak with him and he told her to make an appt. with the tree stump... was terrible.  That was terrible.  Also, on the road talking to Talmanes before Hindesap or whatever - there was some poor dialogue there where you cocked your head and said, "Mat would never have said that."

The key difference in this book is: Mat was actually funny.  His thoughts and things made me laugh out loud multiple times (so did that exhange with Pevara and Androl when he compared her to leather.  Great job!). 

 

Anyhow.... those are my thoughts.

 

DWI (deal with it!) :)

 

MB

[pmtang]

I wonder if a collar on Tuon (or any sul'dam) would actually do anything.  These are women who could learn to channel, but they themselves couldn't channel yet and certainly didn't know any weaves.  It was mentioned many times that you don't actually draw any of the woman's strength from the leash, you just use that person to channel.

[Agitel]

I wonder if a collar on Tuon (or any sul'dam) would actually do anything.  These are women who could learn to channel, but they themselves couldn't channel yet and certainly didn't know any weaves.  It was mentioned many times that you don't actually draw any of the woman's strength from the leash, you just use that person to channel.

 

I forget if Tuon can be forced to channel immediately, but she'd be dominated by the a'dam. A woman with the bracelet could inflict pain and that type of stuff with it. We've seen that. It doesn't work on people without the ability.

[batcaver]

For the first half of the book I still found Mat's voice to be jarringly out of character and clown-like.  The Rand/Mat/Tuon scene was ghastly to me in terms of plot and writing.  I'd also have to agree that it makes no sense and seems like a total reversion for him to be trying to avoid the last battle.  I just don't even know what to make of that.

 

I thought he did improve a great deal as the book went on, especially once he started taking command and being used in a serious way.  There were plenty of scenes where Mat was enjoyable to read, but they were always the ones where he was reacting to something serious.

 

That said, the Tuon relationship has really ruined Mat for me.   Everything Egwene said in her meeting with Tuon was dead on, to my mind.    I just can't fathom his non-reaction to his wife being a slaver.  His sister channels.  His childhood friends channel.  I find completely incomprehensible his flippant attitude of "Oh well, Tuon and I will have to get around to talking about that sometime, but man she sure is strong and pretty.  Egwene, just calm down and let's not argue about the fact that she and her people seek to enslave and torture you and your kind for the rest of your lives".

 

I've hated Tuon from the jump and this book definitely intensified it.  She basically sat in a chair for the entire last battle, half the time contemplating whether she'd even join in or just use the opportunity to conquer the beaten Rand-landers.  Nice.  The repartee between Mat and her repulses me as well, even though it's kind of just WOT gender-banter in concentrate form.  I've never been able to feel any chemistry in it.  Tuon obviously isn't really concerned about that as more than a potential side development, but Mat at least expresses affectionate sentiment for her.  I just can't see why.  The whole thing has always just been an extremely unconvincing plot point for me, and if anything it was much worse in this book.  I could write pages of disgusted ranting about this, but moving on...

 

I found it weird that the grey man in the garden would be seeking to assassinate Tuon at that point.  I mean, correct me if I'm wrong here, but aren't the Seanchan planning an even greater assault on the Tower at this point?  Aren't they and the shadow's forces basically placing the Light in a hammer/anvil situation?  Seems to me that the shadow would be seeking nothing but the status quo from the Seanchan at this point?  Tuon has already turned Rand's offer for peace down, so it very much looks like the light will be fighting with them at their backs.  Weird time to send an assassin. 

 

Would have liked more in the epilogue.  A lot more, really, but then it was very thin for all characters.

[Duskfire]

For the first half of the book I still found Mat's voice to be jarringly out of character and clown-like.  The Rand/Mat/Tuon scene was ghastly to me in terms of plot and writing.  I'd also have to agree that it makes no sense and seems like a total reversion for him to be trying to avoid the last battle.  I just don't even know what to make of that.

 

I found that bit weird as well. Its just like he reverted back to old Mat without any real transition period. I can understand why he would do it, but I just dont think it was explained well and seemed out of place. Not to mention, as soon as Rand showed up and got Tuon to sign the Dragon Peace, Mat was all excited and in a hurry to get battle preparations underway. And once he found out Egwene was in trouble, he pressured Tuon into helping her, never mind that only a day before or whatnot he was ready to abandon his friends to just that. And he knew the world was ending, and he knew he was important.

 

Was just weird.

 

It was like his entire character arc of the previous couple of books was just made redundant. In them, we saw Mat finally maturing, saw him accepting his destiny, saw him becoming more comfortable in leading men. And in the short period between him leaving ToG and showing up in Ebou Dar, he completely changes his mind. The only thing I can think was that maybe it was something Moiraine said, and that the Pattern wanted him acting like that. Sort of along the lines of "if you join TG before this time, you will die." But then again, if that was the case, I am sure Sanderson would have communicated that to us.

 

It would have been like if Perrin suddenly reverted back to his insecure denial of being a leader role, and avoiding the wolfdream, etc etc for no particular reason.

[John Everyman]

That said, the Tuon relationship has really ruined Mat for me.   Everything Egwene said in her meeting with Tuon was dead on, to my mind.    I just can't fathom his non-reaction to his wife being a slaver.  His sister channels.  His childhood friends channel.  I find completely incomprehensible his flippant attitude of "Oh well, Tuon and I will have to get around to talking about that sometime, but man she sure is strong and pretty.  Egwene, just calm down and let's not argue about the fact that she and her people seek to enslave and torture you and your kind for the rest of your lives".

 

 

I feel the same way.  I have no idea if this is true or not, since I really have no idea what Artur Hawkwing would think of the damane... but I do like to think that he disapproved, and that the combined influence of Hawkwing and Mat will help eliminate the practice of using damane (especially since if the Dragon's Peace holds up, there won't be any real need of them).  Could take many years, but hopefully it will happen.  Then again, Hawkwing did hold siege on Tar Valon, so he can't have too great a love for Aes Sedai...

 

I choose to think that at least.  Although I was happy in KOD when Mat took the a'dam off Teslyn and Joline, I was also somewhat annoyed he didn't have a stronger aversion to it. 

 

I kind of liked Mat and Rand's banter.  Reminded me a bit of their dialogue in The Eye of the World, before Rand began a descent into madness.  Last time Mat had seen Rand had been when he was in the middle of his "use everybody" phase.  Of course, like many of the character moments in the book, I felt they should have had a bit more dialogue.  Only character moment that I feel was done just right was the sparring session between Rand and Tam. 

[Duskfire]

I feel the same way.  I have no idea if this is true or not, since I really have no idea what Artur Hawkwing would think of the damane... but I do like to think that he disapproved, and that the combined influence of Hawkwing and Mat will help eliminate the practice of using damane (especially since if the Dragon's Peace holds up, there won't be any real need of them).  Could take many years, but hopefully it will happen.  Then again, Hawkwing did hold siege on Tar Valon, so he can't have too great a love for Aes Sedai...

 

I choose to think that at least.  Although I was happy in KOD when Mat took the a'dam off Teslyn and Joline, I was also somewhat annoyed he didn't have a stronger aversion to it.

 

The thing is, theres a darkside to Mat. Its one of the reasons why I love him as a character, since I consider him to be one of the true three dimensional characters in the WoT universe. He is a nice guy, but I suspect there is a part of him that doesnt mind Aes Sedai being controlled. Part of it would stem from his general dislike for them and inability to trust them. but a part of it would also come from the Shadar Logoth taint that I am pretty sure resides in him still somewhat. Ultimately the good guy in him would win and he would sooner rather then later take the a`dam off, but I do think there is a small part of him, the part that hates Aes Sedai, the part that still fears Rand, that would just as sooner keep it on. Thats why he is such a good fit for Tuon, since he is basically the only main character who would put up with that crap.

[aynatal2000]

I loved Mat in the last book and this one! Everyone seems to forget that Demandred is alledgedly a master tactician and since no one knew where he had set up his power base, Mat had to APPEAR deficient in his battle ability.Demandred's disdain for the light and it's army had to be reinforced had to be fed.

Prior to Grady's POV before the river was released.Mat is thinking that all the pieces were almost in place ... and he mentions waiting for a stroke of luck...  then Grady 's POV and here comes hinderstrap.. Lord I laighed til I was sick!

Mat  started the series as a rogue a prankster. A country boy who longed to see a city to experience a myriad of things.He was also headstrong,sneaky and prone to pick up things- the dagger for example.What's the saying? curiousity killed the cat but satisfaction brought it back- that describes Mat.

He kept the Seanchan in reserve; he knows his wife a bit better than we all picked up on.If  he had begged pleaded cajoled or tried to order her, she would resist.No man would order the Empress. But with Min there,luck would rear its head and show Tuon the way.The trickster,the gambler the prince of ravens rolled the dice

From the time he had dealt with ael/eil finn, all the basic qualities Mat had were shaped and reinforced- he wanted things not authority; but how do you get them without charisma,talent and ingenuity? And with this comes responsibility and for that came Olver, the Band, the Aes Sedai he saved, Tuon and the Seanchan. Back in books IV and V Rand knows his friend must have the semblance of free will to leave so that he will always come back... and do the right thing.

I think Mat's progression in TOM and AMOL is natural; he has gotten older, seen death with his own eyes not other's memories- and he is still the trickster,the gambler! What does he say after Tuon tells him she is with child and through the exchange she states that she can now kill him? " maybe we can work something out? Have you ever played dice?" That is Mat.Go back to the first book and read thePOV of the boys,villagers and Tam when thinking of Mat, the young boy.Then read them again and think of the  young man that prankster could grow up to be. That was/is Mat- no matter whether Sanderson or Jordan wrote some or all.

[Suttree]

 

 

 

I wonder if a collar on Tuon (or any sul'dam) would actually do anything. These are women who could learn to channel, but they themselves couldn't channel yet and certainly didn't know any weaves. It was mentioned many times that you don't actually draw any of the woman's strength from the leash, you just use that person to channel.

I forget if Tuon can be forced to channel immediately, but she'd be dominated by the a'dam. A woman with the bracelet could inflict pain and that type of stuff with it. We've seen that. It doesn't work on people without the ability.

We don't know that at all Agitel. It either works or it doesn't per RJ. A sul'dam has to have worked with the a'dam for a very long time(on the verge of stepping over to channeling)or it does not work at all. It's up for debate if it would work on Tuon giving it was merely a hobby.

[Beer Rot]

The exchange between mat and rand to me was supposed to be like the joking in the past books; perrin telling loial the girl that called mat handsome had a face like a goat, and perrin rescuing rand from egwene's jealousy by bringing up aram. both hinting at the common interplay between them before they left home.

 

i didn't find the writing done well, i barely chuckled, but i can easily see them having such a jocular light hearted exchange at that time.

[cap10kirk]

'"Knotai?" said Knotai.'

 

OMG that one line just cracked me up. Hilarious.

 

I was glad to see that Sanderson found Mat's voice in this book.

[Mr. Micawber]

'"Knotai?" said Knotai.'

 

OMG that one line just cracked me up. Hilarious.

 

I was glad to see that Sanderson found Mat's voice in this book.

 

Problem is he found Mat's voice from before Mat grew up. Like Mat before he has his long, intensely fulfilling character development into the hero that he always denied himself to be

[Monkeyfister]

I loved Mat's story and character right up until A Memory of Light.

 

Brandon Sanderson decided to kill off Matrim Cauthon, and replace him with a doppleganger.

 

I can't figure out whether it is Han Cauthon, or Mat Solo.

 

My "mental voice" for the character can only hear Harrison Ford's voice when reading Mat's dialogue, any more.

 

Sad.

 

 

[Beer Rot]

I wonder if a collar on Tuon (or any sul'dam) would actually do anything.  These are women who could learn to channel, but they themselves couldn't channel yet and certainly didn't know any weaves.  It was mentioned many times that you don't actually draw any of the woman's strength from the leash, you just use that person to channel.

 

In tGH a sul'dam tells Egwene that those who've held the leash can almost tell what a damane's doing (i.e. almost see the weaves?). In WH, there's a POV of Bethamin where she claims that women are still tested to be damane for a few years after starting to learn to be sul'dam.  I don't remember which book, but a Kinswoman in Caemlyn tells Elayne that one of the sul'dam feels different from women who can channel.

 

So its quite possible that a collar on Tuon would do nothing yet, she may not have done enough yet.

 

OTOH, the whole subject is full of weird crap that makes no sense anyways when you put it up against all the rest of the 'rules' of channeling, so who the hell knows.

[Jak o' the Shadows]

I swear there is a quote from RJ stating that Mat was still tied to the horn because the bale fire made it so he 'never died'

Terez had corrected me.  Carry on!

[batcaver]

 

For the first half of the book I still found Mat's voice to be jarringly out of character and clown-like.  The Rand/Mat/Tuon scene was ghastly to me in terms of plot and writing.  I'd also have to agree that it makes no sense and seems like a total reversion for him to be trying to avoid the last battle.  I just don't even know what to make of that.

 

I found that bit weird as well. Its just like he reverted back to old Mat without any real transition period. I can understand why he would do it, but I just dont think it was explained well and seemed out of place. Not to mention, as soon as Rand showed up and got Tuon to sign the Dragon Peace, Mat was all excited and in a hurry to get battle preparations underway. And once he found out Egwene was in trouble, he pressured Tuon into helping her, never mind that only a day before or whatnot he was ready to abandon his friends to just that. And he knew the world was ending, and he knew he was important.

 

Was just weird.

 

It was like his entire character arc of the previous couple of books was just made redundant. In them, we saw Mat finally maturing, saw him accepting his destiny, saw him becoming more comfortable in leading men. And in the short period between him leaving ToG and showing up in Ebou Dar, he completely changes his mind. The only thing I can think was that maybe it was something Moiraine said, and that the Pattern wanted him acting like that. Sort of along the lines of "if you join TG before this time, you will die." But then again, if that was the case, I am sure Sanderson would have communicated that to us.

 

It would have been like if Perrin suddenly reverted back to his insecure denial of being a leader role, and avoiding the wolfdream, etc etc for no particular reason.

 

Yeah, the only thing I can assume is that Sanderson just forgot what was going on here.  Maybe he needed to do a reread again.  What was Mat having the dragons made for if he wasn't going to use them in the last battle?  We know he was; that part just made no sense.

[Duskfire]

Would have been alot better if Mat went to Ebou Dar with the intention of working on the truce. I can understand why Mat missed the big meeting at Merrilor; he has never really been huge on fanfare and being in front of a crowd.  But he should have gone to see Tuon just so he could convince her to allow him to lead the Seanchan army in TG. None of thise "running from his friends" crap that he got over about six books previous. Not to mention, when did he revert to not trusting Rand? Sometimes, he came across as outright disliking him. Just harkened back to his early days for no particular reason.

 

None of that built on Mats character, or contributed to the story at all. Not once in the book later did he think to himself of running. Once he left Ebou dar, he was fully comitted, which was weird the state of mind he was just previously in. Basically this is what happened...

 

Mat: Man, screw fighting in TG. I am going to go hide in Ebou Dar with Tuon. I dont like responsibility and saving the world.

Rand: Tuon, you must sign the Dragon Peace and help us fight the DO.

Tuon: I dunno..

Mat: Rand is a pretty cool guy, hear him out

Tuon: Okay, done

Mat: Wahoo, time to go to battle. Lets go, hurry up. Its good to be general again